43 spanish question for Ric in Yakama

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  • Last Post 04 August 2014
corerf posted this 13 May 2014

Ric, I have a 43 spanish carbine and my chamber cast shows a SUPER LONG neck. Like 11mm mauser neck. Like half inch too long neck. Body dimensions are exact to 43 Spanish. Just the neck is stupid long. I seated (sat) a lyman 385gr bullet on top of the case and its not long enough OUT OF THE CASE to reach the lands or even have its nose in the barrel. I couldn't breech seat as Id have a .25 inch air gap ABOVE the case mouth. CRAZY LONG!!

Is this the case with your 43 spanish roller?? If so are you shooting it like this??I have seen MANY threads on forums dead end, discussing the long neck situation. My brass is formed via 44-90 sharps brass. OOOPS--- I let the secret out. Its a dead ringer for fit and it has a neck more than long enough to accommodate my messed up neck or a standard neck. Its CHEAP. Forms easy. You will need to trim excessively but aside from annealing twice to protect the process, its slicker than goose crap on a hot day. If the P&^P(&^ LEE dies had sufficient length, Id have left the DAMNED neck full length and fixed the DAMNED problem. But the P(&^)&^)*& LEE dies are about a 1/4 inch tall and best suited for 22 Long Rifle sizing. My gosh the company is cheap with the material. At 2.250, my case mouth almost touches the threads for the neck sizer stem! Almost is .010------ a paper thickness. Ive got 30-06 dies (from 3 other companies) that can squeeze another .25 inch of neck longer than the 30-06 and not have interference. These Lee dies are a joke! CHEAP- and SHORT! I digress--- but the CORNER CUTTING on the new model molds and now dies from LEE is stupid! Please forgive my rant. I now they sponsor the site but my goodness..... Back to the problem.

Please let me know about your 43 neck. My friggin bullet just sits in a .465 neck space fully unsupported. If I stuff it in the brass, its a 1 inch jump to the lands. Man its bad. Thanks in advance. Mike

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 May 2014

hi ... sounds like a learning opportunity !!

i'm not ric but here is an under-thought-out and possibly ill-advised idea ... if you want to keep the rifle unaltered, i would cobble up an extra long-necked case that extends into the throat ...and try what would be essentially a heeled bullet, at throat diameter.

what could go wrong ?

ok, back to being ken

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giorgio de galleani posted this 13 May 2014

Yes my Modelo Argentino Rolling block has this kind of form , it is like _a long gradual throat. A civilian Swiss Martini has the same shape of chamber. The chambers of those ancient cartridge cartridges cannot be compared with the modern chambers. I do not look for bench rest accuracy from such ancient & obsolete smoke poles, I have generously fat custom bullets from an LBT mould ,pour a prudent 45/70 Trapdoor load and have at it. Pardon me I shoot for fun at 60 yards gongs , from offhand.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 13 May 2014

In the picture you can see the Lyman 43 Spanish  bullet , the LBT bullet and a 45/70 LBT  400 gr  Marlin bullet. Just no hope to touch the 43 Sp rifling wit the bullet nose. A concept not considerated in the pampas or San Juan Hill by the black powder shooting Latino infantrymen. A thing you can do in the modern marlin rifle.   The gongs are awaiting for execution at Acqui Terme.

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corerf posted this 13 May 2014

Giorgio, your confirming yours has a very long neck and again also a vwry long throat. Please confirm. I understand accuracy will not be very good.

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RicinYakima posted this 13 May 2014

Mike,

Yes, mine has the same throat and shoots very well with grooved 0.439” soft lead bullets. I did a quick test with patched bullets but they were not as accurate as the grooved ones, and a lot more work. With the tapered throat like Giorgio says, the bullets seem to line up OK. I'm using 24.0 grains of SR4759 and it works OK for me.

Ric

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corerf posted this 13 May 2014

Just saw the second post.

Thanks for the confirmation.

All the best.

Mike

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giorgio de galleani posted this 13 May 2014

If memory does not fail me there is not a definite stop of the chamber to rest the  mouth of the brass on. The Swiss Martini shot a strange hollow base paper patched bullet ,resembling the 22 LR modern bullet. To morrow I'll go and look the bore of the Remington rifle. 3 or four inch groups at 60 yards are good enough for me. The Rolling block has a horrible trigger , and I do not want it touched ,as the action is not safe. It is closed only while the hammer is falling on the primer. Always control that the firing pin is clean and pushed back by its spring. A wonderful piece of American history, to shoot seldom ,not a routine match shooter of to day. I would advice to use replicas of the 1874 Sharps ,or best of all the Winchester Hi Wall replcas. ( I cannot just see the original sights I use a peep sight  replica. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 May 2014

hi giorgio ... hey that photo of your gongs is very inspiring ... i may make a poster of it and hang it over my loading bench !!

i love the holes in the frame !!

a work of art !! or a work of giorgio ... bet you didn't do much of those misses tho ( g ) .

ken

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 May 2014

Real man shoot standing on the rear feet, and the rifles are shot a lot before zeroing. The poor frame stands proudly under a hail of fire. I got fed up ,or burned out from shooting small groups on paper, if the shots do not hit steel,we advance to the targets  for zeroing in . We practice fun shooting. As Mr Ruger used to say about accuracy : enough for farm boys shooting tin cans.

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corerf posted this 14 May 2014

Im going to machine a Lee 43 die with no top so that I can have an infinite neck extruder. Using the 348 Win frame as before, Ill not have to trim the neck at all. It can be 2 inches long if the parent brass is long enough. This WILL fix the neck issue. Lee sells replacement die bodies for $14 plus ship. Im willing to risk $20 plus some new forming brass to try a few LONG NECKS. Pisser, its a carbine. Barrel isnt long enough to utilize the extra powder capacity I will generate (BP) and it is significant capacity!!

This was my original intent but I ordered the lee dies and brass blindly not knowing the dies would not give me the latitude to extend the neck. Trying to form 8x58RD from the same parent I used about 15 different dies to alter the neck. None will substitute adequately enough to make a case small enough to fit the chamber but still have the super long neck. So I used the lee die, trimmed to 2.250 and met the same fate possibly every other 43 shooter has......

Giorgio, I think you mentioned the chamber not having a defined end to the neck at case mouth.

My cast shows a mushy transition from neck diameter to freebore diameter, it is not sharp but it is measurable. I will extend the neck out till I get within .020 of that transition. That will put the bullet in the “throat” and get me closer to supporting it. A paper patch or a fatter bullet (fatter than .439/440) might offer full support in the throat. Ill still have to seat long.

This is a process of testing my machining skills more than finding accuracy from an otherwise poor shooter. I think 43 owners suffer due to the conditions that exist and not having ready solutions to overcome. Id like to overcome for the sake of achievement. Then I can sell the gun and say” I got it to shoot well and cheaply!”

It would be easier to screw a new barrel on it, not faster, but easier. Ill report back with some pics. This may be a cheap alternative for MANY to use. Not looking for tiny groups, but smaller than Giorgios specified 4 MOA would be outstanding.

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locksmith1 posted this 04 August 2014

Mine shoots very well considering the age of the rifle. Made the cases from 348 brass. Truly a labor of love. Maybe make 3-4 an hour. After that its fire forming ect.ect.

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blixem posted this 04 August 2014

I have a Rem M1879 RB in 43 Spanish that gave me fits with the “regular” so called Lyman 43 Spanish bullet. I even tried paper patching a smooth sided PP bullet. Nothing worked- BP or smokeless, GG or paper patched. I knew the rifle should shoot. The bore is excellent. 

I'm glad to read in this thread about someone else correctly describing the way many of these old BP era rifles were chambered. Where, the transition from chamber at case mouth to entry into the bore is a simple continuous taper (was probably the easiest type of reamer to make and use if you think about it). That leaves a huge tapered cavern throat- and obviously no support for the bullet as it leaves the case. BTW it also causes a “paper ring” problem with paper patched bullets- in my experience. 

After getting tired of all that and most of the advice from other BPCR “experts"”¦ some even calling me out when I described the throat issue, I got serious about making it shoot. I designed a mold on Mountain Molds. I stayed with a conventional GG design and within original weight parameters for the 43 Spanish at about 380 grains with a diameter of .442 and gas checked. Some say the gas check on these is not HC. Well, phooey on that. The 43 Spanish was one of the first cartridges to be loaded with copper alloy jacketed bullets!!

My bore's groove diameter is about .441. I lapped a Lee push thru to .441. I use correctly headstamped Bertram brass. I use a .440 Lyman M neck expander and a Lee FL sizer set to size only enough for smooth chambering. I use a soft alloy of about 8-9 BHN. This combination shoots extremely well with either BP or light “BP type velocity” loads of 5744 with dacron filler. Matter of fact it shoots right with some other good shooters I have like an original Sharps 74 in 44-90 and a modern Montana C Sharps 74 in 45-110. These shoot to about MOA @100 yds or even a little better on some days if I hold my mouth just right. 

The only thing I did to the rifle was improve the sights. I added a taller blade front and removed the horrendous original rear sight. I added a barrel mounted rear aperture using the original D&T'd sight hole in the barrel. Both sight modifications are reversible so the rifle can be returned to original state to maintain collector value.      

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