More Trapdoor questions

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  • Last Post 25 January 2015
tturner53 posted this 21 January 2015

Working with my recently acquired 1884 Springfield 45-70 rifle I have discovered I have a 'belled' or 'wallowed out' muzzle. This based on gauging technique from Wolf's excellent book using a Hornady 300 .458 JHP as a gauge. Mine allows the JHP to enter into what Wolf calls the “excessively worn” category.  He states it's possible to recut the crown with a 60 degree cutter and possibly restore accuracy that way. I haven't proven yet that this gun is inaccurate or not, just looking at my options. Anybody been down this road? For any of you interested in the TDS or 45-70 this book is very interesting reading. Where would a guy find a 60 degree cutter?

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muley posted this 22 January 2015

as John Alexander sez : don't worry about the muzzle, it won't affect accuracy.

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RicinYakima posted this 22 January 2015

Tim,

FWIW, I shot two national records with two different trapdoors, neither of which had a perfect crown. The qualifying factor is that they were light (or very light) smokeless loads that had very little muzzle pressure from the powder. The bullets were most likely just coasting out the end.

Ric

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 January 2015

hi ..the 60 degrees is not magic ... common countersinks are 90 ( 2 of 45 ?^ ) and 82.5 degrees.

even if you cut the muzzle back a bit to get fresh rifling, i would just use the old style recessed flat muzzle and deburr with a brass screwhead with some 400 grit.

hand fed, unpiloted countersinks can seek a path of their own.

ken

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tturner53 posted this 22 January 2015

Thanks guys. I'll work with it some more before doing anything crazy. I think I was there when Ric shot his record group at the Military Nationals in Washington, IIRC. Ken, are you talking about a counter bore type deal? That's something I didn't consider but it seems to help a lot of shot out cleaned out Mosin 91/30s. If I can get some consistent loads I'm going to shoot it in some CBA competition. The new BP cartridge postal match got me started on this idea. My Handi Rifle doesn't qualify. For some reason I had the idea the Trapdoor wouldn't kick so hard but it knocks hell out of me, like a punch.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 January 2015

yep the terminology is confusing ... starter drill? ... countersink? ... counterbore? ... since thses are kinda jargon words, they really don't mean much. in a machine shop if you ask for a countersink you never know what you get handed ( g ) .

anyway a ” piloted counterbore ” is usually a tool with a face cutting feature, and a hole in the middle in which you can setscrew a pilot pin. it only cuts on the face unlike a similar end mill ...

of course, if things are controlled , say in a lathe, you can use a center-cutting end mill to do a barrel counter-bore. heh. or a boring bar ... ..

yeah, recoil; basically a momentum thing you can't cheat ... mass times velocity ... but you can change the time of transfer >>> impulse ( force x time applied ) ... and the area the impulse is applied on ... take the pain out of it. i use a folded up shower towel under my shirt for those sharp butt plate 45-70 bad boys ...

while rambling ... many more real life dynamic problems are solved by considerationa of momentum than by trying to follow the conservation of energy ...

ken

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Bud Hyett posted this 23 January 2015

There is an alternative method to shoot off a bench that may help reduce felt recoil. I have used this method when shooting two piece stocks and not getting good accuracy. When I bought my Sharps, I tried this method while testing loads for accuracy and also noticed the recoil effect was less.

Use your rear bag to support your shoulder by moving the bag under your armpit. With your shoulder supported by the bag, you can now pull the rifle directly into your shoulder in close approximation of an offhand stance. The trick is being able to repeat the same stance for each shot. This method is more of a challenge for repeating the hold and requires more concentration to achieve repeatability.

With the usual configuration of a benchrest, you will need to rearrange your front rest and rear bag close to the bench edge. I have three auxiliary Freeland leather bags that I use as support when I build the rear bag into my shoulder, you may need something similar.  

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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tturner53 posted this 24 January 2015

Update/range report. Yesterday I shot a 5 shot group with the TDS using the M1886 Carbine Load. A Lee 405 HB going about 1150-1200 fps. At 100 yds. I managed to surprise myself, 5 shots just under 4” and 4 of those under 3"! This is pretty good in my book for this stage of the game. I know some of you won't consider a single 5 shot group significant but in this case I'm buying it. Shooting this old war horse from any position is interesting and a hard gun to master in general. I think it's possible this rifle was used by an American to slay enemies of the people. Cool stuff for me. For now I'm going by the book, or books. Wolf's amazing work and the SPG book.

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Dale53 posted this 25 January 2015

tturner53; You “did GOOD"! I shot Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette for several years until vision problems put an end to it.

Recoil - as mentioned above, you cannot beat physics. However, you can certainly minimize it. I refused to remove the steel buttplate on my Browning High Wall (esthetics, you know.>), but on retrospect, I SHOULD have had a “Limb Saver” or similarly effective recoil pad fitted. It would have made life MUCH simpler and might even have led to better scores.

At any rate, I used a strap on shoulder pad that helped greatly (still not as good as a good recoil pad would have been, but quite helpful).

I shot all black powder loads but learned that a coarser granulation kicks less and seems to shoot just as well (but with somewhat lower velocity). When you are shooting at longer ranges (550 yards in my case) you learn to make compromises. What is more comfortable may not be the best at long range.

I have stood behind very large men when they shot prone with these rifles using heavy bullets and full black powder velocity. I noticed that when they shot a recoil “wave” would travel the full length of their bodies. Minimizing that quality will go a long way to reduce that negative effect on your shooting.

FWIW Dale53

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tturner53 posted this 25 January 2015

Thanks Dale. I'm surprised and happy with those results so far. I can't do a whole lot better with any old open sighted rifle. 3” seems about the limit for my skill/vision level. The term “Carbine Load” implies something gentler than the full rifle load but it's actually a bruiser on it's own. The 1886 Rifle load is serious stuff. That's when men were men. The idea was you could knock a horse down stopping a calvary charge which was the scourge of infantry. That's why they used to have 'pike' men, long spears basically to stick horses with. Poor horses of the past. Last week's episode of “Shooting Gallery” on tv featured a story about a match in Montana using only large bore African safari type rifles. Looked like crazy fun but brutal. A guy fires an old BP muzzle loader 4 bore in slow motion,-you can see his whole back distorting. Worse than getting kicked by a mule! I may take a page from our own Ric Bowman and try some light smokeless loads for CBA competition. It worked for him. I learned that there was an official US smokeless load for the TDS. The guns remained in some kind of service for a surprisingly long time. PS I'm not computer literate enough to post pictures or even make a new paragraph, sorry.

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