die vent hole

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technojock posted this 22 February 2015

Has anybody else had a problem with Hornady dies not having a vent hole in the shoulder?  For me the problem began when I was given a set of Hornady .300 AAC Blackout dies.  I was forming cases and using RCBS case lube and I was getting lube dents.  When I backed off the amount of lube to where the problem stopped, I stuck a couple of cases.

Hornady tech support told me the vent hole wasn't needed.  Frankly I disagree and I bought a set of Lee dies and gave the Hornady dies back to the friend that gave them to me.

So was I just using the wrong lube for these dies or is Hornady the jerks I think they are.  I'm leaning toward the later and if I didn't need their .17 Hornet dies (that have the vent hole in the shoulder BTW) I'd sell them and buy another brand.  Last I checked they were the only company making dies for this round.

Tony

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 February 2015

Tony:     Most of my reloading equipment is Hornady and RCBS, dies, presses etc. and generally like both. And have never seen reloading dies with bleed holes. Over the years I have formed cases for several different calibers by just using the FL sizer but have found that RCBS case lube does not work for reforming. Your dents and stuck cases are a tell tale sign. Most recently forming 30 Herrett from 30-30 cases. I use lanolin and very very sparingly.         I don't believe that Hornady dies are as finely polished inside as some other brands and therein lies some of the problem. Along with trying to use case lube to reform.          If it were me, I would try that Hornady die again. After it was polished out with a bore mop wrapped with a patch and fine lapping compound. And then use lanolin to reform. I have read that STP also works as a case forming lube but have never tried it.

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RicinYakima posted this 22 February 2015

Tony,

A couple of things to consider: using two different lubes in a die at the same time can be worse as the result can be sticky. Cleaning the die down to bare metal and then use one lube only. Second, RCBS case lube is not very good for case reforming, just for the reason you stated, it is too thick and there is a very fine line between too much and not enough. I have use Imperial sizing die wax with complete satisfaction. I also make a wax from industrial micro-crystalline metal forming wax and 3% lanolin that has worked well. ENCO and other mail order companies sell metal forming waxes.

Hornady is not the only one leaving out the shoulder vents. They know that the wax dissolved in alcohol and sprayed on the batch of cases is popular with reloaders. It builds up on the inside of the resizing dies so a smooth finish is not required. Hornady and Midway are both big on marketing this stuff.

Ric

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Bud Hyett posted this 22 February 2015

I've had the experience that Ric refers to, two lubes intermixed will leave a sticky residue that compounds the problem. Over the years, I've migrated to only two lubes, Imperial Sizing Die Wax and Groom and Clean. Groom and Clean is for cases where the reloading is standardized; .308 and .30-'06 as examples for a developed and known load for competition. Rub a dab on the hands, rub four cases in your hands and size. Every so often, I clean my dies of the excess lube buildup that naturally occurs. Also, cleaning the vent holes is part of the routine because I have found, as you did, the plugged vent hole causes buildup which dents cases. Groom and Clean is water soluble and washes off the cases. It is also good for a hair tonic.

Case-forming lead me to the Imperial Wax; the thin coat of the wax with a slow, steady push worked best. Lubricity of the wax is high enough that a person can use a thin coat. Any other lube I've tried over the years did not work as well.  

As for the company representative on the phone, there is a better approach for this. The person on the phone is there to field questions and may not have the depth of knowledge to gain an understanding of the problem.

The better scene is the NRA Annual Meeting (or similar show) and talking directly to the people who do the work. I realize not everyone gets to these meetings and shows, but you may know someone who is going and who can represent the problem for you.  The approach is ask for the design or manufacturing representative, not the salesman. Ask them for their help; this appeals to their ego and draws in their interest. Then offer to sketch the problem and talk as you draw. Explain the impact of the problem and gain their acceptance. Keep in mind that the accountant runs the business, the accounting department will seek to save the cost of a vent hole to fatten profits unless the design person can show the utility of this feature. I've had some interesting discussions; and this approach usually works. I'm looking forward to the NRA Annual Louisville meeting in 2016.  

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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technojock posted this 22 February 2015

I've solved the problem by switching brands.  I now have a set of Lee .300BLK dies that do not give me the fits the Hornady dies did.  I'll look into getting some imperial sizing wax for case forming.  

I was also resizing some factory .300BLK cases that were given to me after I started forming .223Rem to .300BLK.  I was also getting sizing dents and when I one of the factory cases stuck and I had to extract it from the Hornady sizing die, it was the last straw for me. 

If I had the money to travel in the winter, I doubt I'd make it to the SHOT show but I'd love to go one day.  I'd love to give some opinions to a few suppliers (not that it would make any difference...)

BTW, does Ed Harris still post here?  I'd love to hear what he has to say on the subject...

Tony

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Ed Harris posted this 23 February 2015

I have had Erik Ohlen EDM lube bleed holes in several dies for me. Especially seater dies used wih cast bullets so lube buildup does not change seating depth. I save the little lube worms to flux the pot.

Plain USP mineroil oil works fine for cases which require only light sizing in steel dies. I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax for heavy case forming.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 23 February 2015

The ONLY reason I don't use Imperial is that by the time I finally coughed up the nickels for a can of it I'd developed a lube using lanolin and carnauba wax - and was disappointed in Imperial. Having said that, Imperial is way ahead of most everything out there.

You'll find that many of the really good lubes for tough sizing issues are organic.

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OU812 posted this 23 February 2015

Dented shoulders is caused by using too much lube. Clean out you sizing or form die and use less lube. Imperial works verygood, but it is very easy to use too much. One small dab to get fingers slightly greasy will usally lube about five cases.

Vent hole is a sales gimmick and not needed. Notice Redding dies have no vent hole.

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technojock posted this 23 February 2015

Thanx Ed, I really appreciate your words of wisdom once again...  I'll try the sizing wax later on if I do more cases.  For now I have enough to last me awhile.

Tony

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 February 2015

also consider that very little ” lube ” is needed on the top third of the case .. the difficulty is the bottom thick two-thirds, especially the near-solid last 3/4 inch .

for neck and slight shoulder sizing with push-in dies, i just dip the case in powdered graphite and tap excess off ..doesn't build up and doesn't stick to powder grains. it is slow but i just start earlier.

ken

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noylj posted this 23 February 2015

I have never had an issue with Hornady dies or lack of a vent hole, and I have never seen a “dimpled” shoulder. Always use a lube pad and, it seemed to me, that you only lubed the case body and the sizing die would push the lube down, so there shouldn't even be lube on the shoulder to “dimple” it. After 40 years, sorry I can't be of any help.

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R. Dupraz posted this 23 February 2015

Well, I learned something after reading this thread. I checked some of my old FL sizer dies, some from the 60's when they came in individual paper boxes, and there are indeed bleed holes in them. However, in some of the dies, the holes were underneath the lock ring and others not. But in all cases, the holes were long since plugged with hard lube. So, I question their effectiveness anyway.     When reforming cases I can say this though. All the parent cases are annealed first, down as far as to where the shoulder of the new case will be. And all I have ever used to reform is the FL sizer die of the intended case that has no bleed hole, more modern dies. Or with older dies where the bleed hole was obviously plugged.    And after using lanolin with just enough on my fingers to very lightly lube the case, the reforming is slick and easy with no dents or creases. Even when making .308's from the 30-06 brass where the shoulder is pushed back a ways. Or when forming the 40-82 with that long gradual shoulder, from 45-90 brass. The only time that a crease or dent appears is when too much lube is used.   

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RicinYakima posted this 23 February 2015

My experience is much like yours. 20 years ago when 218 Bee brass was not made, I used 32/20. Lube dents with RCBS lube is what lead me to search for something better. Ric

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technojock posted this 23 February 2015

This makes me wonder why they would put the vent hole in the .17 Hornet dies and not the .300 Blackout... I will be switching lubes for forming but I still like to have the vent hole so it's a feature that I will look for in future die purchases...

Tony

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OU812 posted this 24 February 2015

I have a RCBS 308 form and trim die that has a vent hole. This vent did not prevent dented shoulders and sides until I started using less lube. Vent may help some, but not much.

Venting a seater die sounds good. Especially if you seat the bullet fast.

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4570sharps posted this 12 July 2016

IMO Hornady dies are a waste of money!:(:(

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 July 2016

speaking of lanolin and wax mix lube ... there is a spray can at your napa dealer of just that ..... called ” fluid film ” ... i have also switched to that as my #1 preservative in my high humidity shop ... and long term gun storage .... try it you will like it ...

ken

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beltfed posted this 13 July 2016

I have found Lee sizing lube to work very well in forming 300 BO, 40-65,etc.Just know enough not to use too much...The Lee lube is a metal forming wax. Washes off with water and a bit of Dawn,etc.beltfed/arnie

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beltfed posted this 13 July 2016

Oh, another thing re. forming the 300 BO cases.Its a good idea, if using fired 223 brass, to full length size it first with a 223 die before cutting the brass off and going to the 300 BO forming operation.beltfed/arnie

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harleyrock posted this 13 July 2016

Is this NAPA “fluid film” better than CLP Breakfree or Ballistol for cleaning, lubricating and preserving?

Lifetime NRA since 1956, NRA Benefactor, USN Member, CBA Member

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 July 2016

fluid film is a better preservative but not as an action lubricant.

i think it is superior as a case lube in sizing .

ken

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