My first range trip this year was nice and wet today. The Traditions Frontier Flint Rifle that I posted the build tutorial on finally got some shooting today. <url=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/IMG_20150406_1335028681_zpskqjsafnm.jpg.html>
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This is my very first 5 shots at 50 yards with no fowling shots. A cut agate flint was set in the jaws, the priming charge is 3 grains FFFF Goex and the main charge is 75 grains Alliant Black MZ. My bullet is the 50 Cal. 250 grain R.E.A.L. in pure lead seated over two .060” veggie wads and a dab of TC Bore Butter. The bullets were also previously tumble lubed with 45:45:10 Deluxe commercial lube. The 5 shots were fired standing with the aid of a Primos Shooting Stick for a rest to simulate my normal deer hunting shooting style. I built this rifle only to be used for hunting so no bench rest shooting will likely ever be done with it as I want to only shoot it as I would shoot it hunting.....from a shooting stick and standing. I'm very happy with the target especially as the sight setting was only centered by eye during assembly and no other adjustment was made. I will refine the setting, but the first shot of this rifle would have knocked a deer over! The first shot hit at 6 o'clock in the bull. It was so nice to get out and shoot this particular rifle for my first range trip this year and I am very thankful my health since my stroke has let me hold a rifle and shoot a little better this spring. I fired 10 shots total. The second target wasn't as good but any of the shots would have killed a deer. The Alliant BMZ replical powder worked flawlessly in the flintlock but I will drop the prime to 2 grains for less hang time on my next trip. Absolutely zero swabbing was needed between shots and loading was smooth and easy after starting the bullets. A good and easy experience was rewarding with my shooting of the new kit built rifle today. Gary
Range test-Traditions Frontier Flint Kit
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- Last Post 11 June 2015
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Great results, Gary! I was wondering when you were going to test that rifle.
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Thank you! I have held onto the mental aspects of shooting despite the physical difficulties I have.
I did have a surprise with this new rifle in that the hang time of ignition was longer than my old rocklock that I had so many years from boyhood. My old rifle had a substantially larger primer pan and used larger flints. The mechanical and mental aspects of my shooting paid off. I worked diligently adjusting the set triggers during the build and knew exactly the feel of the trigger before I actually fired the rifle. My trigger squeeze and follow through allowed me to completely adapt to the unexpected hang time without wavering off target.
I will file my pan primer tool shorter to adjust the priming charge smaller to 2 grains instead of three. This will shorten the hang time to the bang. My old rifle was lightening fast with 1/2 pan full of prime charge. The 3 grains completely fills level this pan and that really is not the best for ignition of a flintlock.
I think the rifle will be fine for hunting deer, a 50 yard shot like on my first target would be reliable and I bet that at a shorter range of 25 yards that I could either hit or bark a squirrel and really bring back the thrill of being a boy hunting squirrels with a flintlock again.
Gary
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Very nice Gary! What a joy to work with things you have so much of yourself in. GP
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Good job Gary,
Do you plan on shooting only the R.E.A.L. or are you going to try some PRB ?
Longone
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Nice. Thanks for sharing the report and congratulations on your project! If you get a deer with it we want a full report. I've used a muzzle loader to take Mule Deer and can tell you it's way more fun than hunting with a modern set-up.
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The Frontier Flint Rifle has a 1:48 twist at 28” long barrel. I have the R.E.A.L. in 250 gr., the R.E.A.L. 320 gr., the Lee Modern Minnie 355 gr. hollow base wad cutter, and also have round-balls at .490 and .495". All of those are compatible with the 1:48 twist barrel with the 250 gr R.E.A.L. the likeliest one to shoot best, but I will try them all this summer with heavy hunting loads before choosing what to hunt Deer and Bear with this fall.
I have over 3 pounds of 2F Alliant Black MZ replica powder right now but only 1/8 pound very old Goex 4F for priming left. So, I am planning to try my stone mortar and pestal for grinding of some Goex 2F that I have a lot of and also will see if the Alliant BMZ will work for priming after grinding some of that too. Planning to explore priming options for this flintlock this summer and trying all the different muzzle loading projectiles that I have in 50 caliber.
I am a flintknapper so making good gun flints from my local Onondaga Flint is not a problem at all but I have some excellent cut Agate Flints right now also. The local high Silica content Onondaga Flint in my back yard makes superb gun flints and I have used that since I was a boy.
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I'm sure you have done this but in a pinch FFF works well in my flint lock rifles. It will hold you until you are able to grab a can of FFFF.
Longone
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Actually, I have never tried 3F for priming. I will now. I am one of those pyromaniacs that made my own black powder for many years, tumbling, mixing, caking and ricing the stuff and for primer I generally just sifted or ground what I had made to an extra fine powder that always worked very well for pan priming. I am not mixing anymore!!!
Gary
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I am hoping to take a ride to Dixons in PA. on Sat. and I'll be getting a can of FFFF just to keep the flints running along with some other things. It's going to be a smokey summer at our club.
Let us know how the fff works for you, I just put a new Lyman frizzen and an English stone on my T/C Hawken and it has improved the function of the rifle. I wipe the flint and frizzen with rubbing alcohol while I'm wiping the bore and loading. There has been a big reduction in FITP.
Enjoy.
Longone
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Beautiful day today, 70+ degrees and moderate winds. I had planned a range trip to test Lee Modern Minnie bullets in the Frontier Flint kit rifle after I got laundry in the dryer this morning. Everything is packed and ready. I sprained my left ankle negotiating steps to the laundry. This is very unwelcome. I have assigned a scapegoat - I was wearing my camouflage clogs.
Gary
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Stick with the blaze orange clogs. They are much safer. We had lovely weather. I forked cowsh@t.
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Range trip today for more testing. I tried the Lee Modern Minnie 255 gr hollow base wad-cutter with 85 grains Alliant BMZ, prime was 3 gr Goex 4F. 2-.060” veggie wads and a dab of bore butter over the wad. These bullets were also previously tumble lubed 45:45:10.
I fired 2 targets with 5 rounds each, had no misfires. Most notable was the substantial recoil and my right cheek was very slightly bruised with this potent hunting load. My shoulder took it in stride but my cheek did not.
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Gary, I know it wasn't you, but were those results due to a Minie that was too small for your bore? inappropriate twist rate? both? Btw, if the CB was too small, paper patching may improve grouping.
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The Modern Minnie actually fits decently in this particular rifle and needs to be started with my ball starter, but they are not near as tight starting with the ball starter as the R.E.A.L. My 1:48 twist on this rifle is marginal to match a 355 gr bullet and a compromise.
However, I did owe it to myself to try these heavy bullets as I do hunt Bear. I still have the R.E.A.L. 320 gr to test, but the 250 gr. R.E.A.L. shoots great! If the 320s hold 4” at 80 yards, I will use them instead.
I will also try round balls to see how they shoot, but a round ball in 50 Cal. is too light for safety Bear hunting in my opinion.
It would be great if the 320s shoot well but the 250 is sufficient and not a light bullet for Bear at the ranges I see them, 50-80 yards. I use strong candle scents to bring Bear in close. Plus, my grandson will back me up with my .458 Win Mag. or .500 S&W rifle. I DON'T hunt Black Bear alone, ever.
Gary
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Range trip again today with the Traditions Frontier flint kit rifle. I tried the Lee 320 gr R.E.A.L. with 80 gr Alliant BMZ at 50 yards from my shooting stick. So far, with 30 shots fired from the rifle, today was my first misfire, the priming pan charge did not light and I had one misfire out of the 10 shots fired today into sunny 6 MPH upwind. The powder was still in the pan, so I re-cocked, closed the frizzen and the second try went bang. This did not get me upset and raise my blood pressure. I just kept shooting.......it ain't my first Rocklock.
Here is a picture showing both sizes of the Lee R.E.A.L., the 250 and the 320 gr bullets. They are easy to tell apart at a glance:
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Gary,
In my limited testing with a T/C Hawken 1-48” twist and the 320 I used a felt wad over the powder. At that session at least it did seem to make a + difference. I have also used a felt wad with PRB and there seems be better grouping there as well.
Lately I have been working with PRB strictly and different lubes, they do make a difference, now I'm just waiting for some warmer more humid weather to continue testing.
Longone
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Gary,This was from my last range trip out of my newly acquired Pedersoli Kentucky percussion 50 cal. My own cast ball from a RCBS mold, .013” home cut square patch with Lehigh Valley Lube and a felt wad. 45 grains of FF black powder (Olde Eynsford) CCI #11 caps. 50 yards on a 50 foot slow fire handgun target. These are the first five with no wiping between shots. The low shot is the result of only snapping one cap and not swabbing the bore prior to loading, it was a hang fire so I'm sure there was a WTH moment. The next four shots as you can see are pretty good. I'm still learning how many shots can be taken before the bore needs wiping but this lube has shown the most consistence so far. Longone
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Your target looks great.
I also use wads. The 2 stacked wads I use are .060” each. They are veggie fiber wads, strong and coarse feeling. I believe one of the benefits the coarse wads I use is that they scrub the bore significantly ahead of the bullet when being rammed. They are too easy to blow through to be of any value as a gas seal, but I believe they scrub the bore well and separate the powder from directly touching the bullet when all is seated at my 80 pound push. The wads I use:
I am going to keep playing with the rifle all summer and will post anything remarkable.
Gary
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Track also has the veggie wads at a little less money if you are getting something else you can save a couple of bucks.
Longone
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Your target looks great.
I also use wads. The 2 stacked wads I use are .060” each. They are veggie fiber wads, strong and coarse feeling. I believe one of the benefits the coarse wads I use is that they scrub the bore significantly ahead of the bullet when being rammed. They are too easy to blow through to be of any value as a gas seal,
Gary
Gary, I recently recovered some of the felt wads I've been using and none of them were burned through, flattened, but not damaged in any other way. They really do seem to improve the accuracy with almost any lube. Longone
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Shot this last week with my T/C Hawken flint @ 50 yds. The “8” and “2” shots were with Speer balls that were .490". My cast are from a .495” Lee, you could feel the difference loading those two. Lube was Lehigh Valley with the .125” wad and 45 grains of FF. Longone
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That is a lot of shooting with a muzzle loader! Your target looks great.
Gary
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Both the Pedersoli & T/C targets are excellent, Longone!:D Do you think you'd get the same results without the felt wad? Also, I'm a firm believer in liquid patch lubes at least for range and woods walk purposes. I.e., I never have to wipe the bore even after 20 shots with either 1 Ballistol : 6 H20 or 1 Kleen Draw : 10 H20. (Don Diego on the CB Forum kindly provided me with a sample of Kleen Draw.)
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Felt wads are something that I just stumbled upon, I believe they do improve accuracy and so do the shooters I have given some to. They all seem to have the same results as I'm getting, less fliers and pretty good accuracy for a production gun.
I have also tried the hard card wads but seem to get some really wide fliers with them, for now they are on the shelf.
I suppose the next thing to do is a side by side comparison with and without wads, although I do wonder about that wet lube sitting directly on top of the powder. That to me would seem to make some difference in the burn characteristics of the powder.
I have also used 7:1 h2o and Balistol and had good results but needed to patch between shots, I am looking for repeatable accuracy that will last through a woods walk.
Longone
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In my experience, felt or cardboard wads (but not both) make a difference when using some conicals ( REAL's & Maxi-Balls) with high
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I have a theory and suspicions I'd like to prove or disprove. Bare conical bullets like the R.E.A.L. rely on fit of the bullet achieved during loading as the R.E.A.L. is substantially over-size and is sized to the barrel when it is loaded. I believe the veggie wad, or 2- .060"veggie wads in my case act as a cleaning scraper wad during loading. This pushes fouling and somewhat cleans fouling that would have had an opportunity to damage the bullet fit had the wad not been there doing a job to push fouling and clear the bore ahead of the bullet being rammed home. The bullet simply remains more true and less damaged upon loading when using wads because the wads clear some of the fouling during the loading process and the bullet is not gouged in the sealing/bearing band areas during loading. The wad captures and carries some of the fouling all along the way till the bullet is fully seated. That captured fouling has no chance to score or scrape the bearing bands of the R.E.A.L. bullet. This reduces and minimizes gas jetting and deformation of the bullet enough to decrease group size.
It has been my general experience that the R.E.A.L. bullets shoot into smaller groups when using veggie wads at loading, but I have done no definitive testing and group measuring to support my theory. The veggie wads I use are like coarse, stiff, over size scouring pads and I believe that they have a positive effect on accuracy because they clear fouling ahead of the bullet when loading. They minimize damage to the bullet and bullet fit by clearing the path ahead of the bullet while loading.
Gary
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Hey Gary,That is nice shooting! That target says that you are really on The mend. Today I took out my Ruger .22 Hornet with some NOE .225 44WFN and ate out the “X” ring of a 50 yd. pistol tgt at 50 yd. I used 7.5 gr. IMR 4227. Bob 11B50
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I think I have proven to myself that the felt wad (.125") over 45 grains of FF powder with a .013” patch wet with Lehigh Valley Lube in my T/C Hawken @50 yards is good enough. With my old eyes looking at the front sight it consistently produced good looking targets. Without the wad it shot OK but not great, probably should have brought the chronograph but the way it is shooting now why bother.
But this target is a keeper, 5 shots with the above recipe from the bench with a front rest and rear bag. The target is a B2 50 foot pistol target. Longone
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Oh, I forgot to mention that I put a new L&R RPL lock in it, flint. I don't think that hurt either.
Longone
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