Very slow powders in .308

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dbarron posted this 14 December 2015

This is my first post, although I've been a member for some time.   I am wondering if anyone has experience with very slow powders in the .308 with cast bullets.   I'm thinking of US869, Reloader 50, 50 BMG etc.  I've tried this a little and found the results interesting.   With 55 grains of US869, velocity was 2000 fps with minute of angle accuracy and no ill effects.   There was significant trash in the barrel, but velocity was uniform and SD's low.  Certainly no issue telling weather the case was full.  Load density was 100% with a little compression.  Obviously, its not the cheapest route, but....   Any thoughts?  

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John Carlson posted this 14 December 2015

Now there you go again, thinking outside the box!:idea1:

If nothing else your approach ensures there won't be any double charges.

Welcome to the group from another relative newcomer.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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dbarron posted this 14 December 2015

Thanks John.   What box?

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mckg posted this 15 December 2015

Not the first time I hear such a report; there must be some truth in the case fill up principle.

Have you tried Blackpowder?

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Brodie posted this 15 December 2015

I have heard (read reports of) this type of load for quite some time.  In the Paper Patch area especially, and for several years.  Not just in the 308Win. but in the 3006, 303Brit, and yes the 3030 Win.  Usually, in the 3030 it is IMR 4350 or 4831 behind a heavy (180 to 200 gr) bullet. 

As I understand it the very slow powders start the bullet moving with a “gentler ” push instead of the more sudden kick one would suspect from pistol or shotgun powders.  Back in the early 1970's some author wrote extensively in the Handloader magazine about using “slow” powders IMR 3031 and 4895 to get higher velocity (over 2000 fps) with gas checked cast bullets, although at the time they hadn't tried really slow powders as the OP has.

Good Luck and keep us posted on your trials dbaron. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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dbarron posted this 15 December 2015

I've not tried that, but its a very interesting idea.

Thanks.

Don

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dbarron posted this 15 December 2015

Brodie: thanks for the info.  That makes sense.    Oddly, I was re reading old issues of Handloader and it was an article from the nineties by Dave Scovill  that got me thinking.  I'll write this up when I have some results.

Don

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tturner53 posted this 15 December 2015

A lot of work has been done using 50BMG and 20mm type powders and cast bullets. The low price of the powder got that ball rolling years ago. At one time IMR 4831 was dirt cheap surplus and was found to be useful in a lot of odd combinations. IMR 5010 was about $7 a .lb. Same as WC860 prices. I got several jugs. The unburned powder kernels are called mummies and have not affected accuracy in my experience.

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dbarron posted this 15 December 2015

thanks tturner for the info.  Not much came to light on my internet search.  Can you point me at any sources for further reading? Don

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45 2.1 posted this 14 January 2016

I have used the slow (for the cartridge) powders since I started hand loading cast in the late 60's. There have been several eras of powder availability starting from the old WW2 surplus 4831. All of them are useful if you treat them right. The main problem is getting them lite where they burn clean and reach proper pressure levels. To do that I duplex the charge. Doing that right takes some learning (better done with someone that is very experienced) since it consumes a lot of time and materials. Excellent accuracy can be achieved doing so though. I currently duplex the slow 50 cal and 20mm powders in a range of cartridges from 5.56 Nato to 45-70 in single shots, bolt guns and semi-autos up to 2,500 fps.

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dbarron posted this 14 January 2016

Thanks. That's interesting. What kind of velocity do you get in the .223?

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45 2.1 posted this 14 January 2016

dbarron wrote: Thanks. That's interesting. What kind of velocity do you get in the .223?

2,423 fps........ 63 gr. cast from a MP mold of my design, The fellow that was here to test it brought his chrono and DPMS AR-15 (18” barrel). 5 shots in 1.13” at 100 yards. Unfortunately, the load is somewhat dirty, unlike the one in a 6-45 AR.

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dbarron posted this 14 January 2016

Wow. That's interesting. I've been reloading for 50+ years, and have, of course, heard of duplex loads. I've used the concept with black powder cartridge loads (very cautiously) but have not tried it with smokeless. It does make intuitive sense, as the concept appears similar. I've had best luck with US 869 and 50 BMG, but the loads are, as you know, very dirty. Accuracy is good, and, as a match shooter, I'm not that concerned about velocity--not that its a bad thing. Do you know of a written source of information on the subject?

Don

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45 2.1 posted this 14 January 2016

dbarron wroteI've had best luck with US 869 and 50 BMG, but the loads are, as you know, very dirty. Accuracy is good, and, as a match shooter, I'm not that concerned about velocity--not that its a bad thing. Do you know of a written source of information on the subject?

Don I know of no known written source except for what little I've done. The 223 load has such a little case that finding the correct duplexing powder is quite ornery (either too dirty or to fast where the groups start expanding). With larger cases that is not so much a concern. The main thing is the very slow push and 33K to 42K operating pressure with full loads. I like to shoot the 308 in bolt and semi-autos. Duplexing gives quite good accuracy and very clean shooting with the very slow for the cartridge powders.

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tlkeizer posted this 15 January 2016

Greetings,   Back in the mid-60's, when we shot lots and lots of prairie dogs, one of our friends in western So Dak would put his empty primed cases, either .243 or .244 whichever it was he had,, and would  just pour powder into the cases until they overflowed, then shake the cake pan the cartridge holder was in, and pour powder into the cases again.  Whichever surplus powder he was using had to be compressed to get a max load, so he didn't worry about it.  The prairie dogs didn't seem to have a preference as the rifle and cartridges loaded that way exterminated thousands of “prairie poodles".

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tlkeizer posted this 15 January 2016

Greetings again, Oops, hit the send rather than the Preview just above. Anyway, the powder was slow enough that the loads worked fine, even though they were not cast bullets.  I wish I remembered what powder and caliber combo it was,  but the 60's seems to be the best decade many of us who were teenagers then don't remember very well.  I think the powder was 4895 or 4831.  What I do remember was father did not load his .243 that way, all loads were measured; a technique I still adhere to today.  But, for a slow powder, whatever our friend used he used it very well and accurately. TK

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tlkeizer posted this 15 January 2016

Greetings again, Oops, hit the send rather than the Prview.. Anyway, the powder was slow enough that the loads worked fine, even though they were not cast bullets.  I wish I remembered what powder and caliber combo it was,  but the 60's seems to be the best decade many of us don't remember very well.  I was also in my teens,  but thiink the powder was 4895 or 4831.

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dbarron posted this 15 January 2016

So much for weighing every charge to the tenth.

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Eutectic posted this 20 January 2016

Back when 4831 was dirt cheap we tried it in everything. A case full in 30.06 or 308 worked pretty well, but the 30-30 was a bust. I had problems with the 30.06 when the weather got cold, the 180 grain cast load did not have the resistance to get combustion pressures up. I had very high velocity variations. Col. Harrison at the NRA recommended 2 grains of fast powder next to the primer. I used Unique and the problems vanished. (Yes, a dangerous duplex load) I had to dial back a bit on the 4831 for the cast loads, and Dacron filler was used to keep the powder in place. (Horrors, filler in bottle neck cases). Later I went to Grex shot shell buffer for filler, accuracy was even better. The reloading set-up was a dipper for the Unique and two powder measures first 4831 and then Grex. This load would shoot just over an inch all day long, even in rapid fire. Several other shooters tried my reloads with good accuracy. I competed against jacketed bullets with a lower velocity cast load. The local range was limited to 100 yards for most matches and 200 was big time. This saved me from embarrassing myself at long range where the cast load was only competitive in zero wind. When surplus 4831 ran out, I tried other slow powders, 5010 and H870 and others. I never had any problems as long as the case was full of something. However the results were  variable. None of the slow ball powers worked well. The new (and expensive) 4831 worked, but a cast load with 4895 NOT A FULL CASE, and no fillers gave good accuracy and cost less, so the era of cheap shooting was over. Cheap 4831 and cast bullets let me shoot center fire rifle matches on a college student budget.  It was fun Steve Hurst    

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 January 2016

interesting ... i tried h4831 in my 222 with plinker mj ... 45 gr. mj ... and it left a barrel full of grains ... so i quit ...

still got a little of that fifty-cent powder ...

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 January 2016

thinking of that cheap powder ... if i had invested that $25 back in 1960 .... i could buy $800 of powder now ...

glad i been shooting up that powder ... BANG = PRICELESS !!!

ken

=...

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Scearcy posted this 20 January 2016

The Second Edition of the Lee reloading manual lists loads for H414 and H450 in addition to H4831.  They only show H4831 for the 220 gr bullet I believe.  I dont keep H450 or H414 around so I have never tried these loads. Several of these loads have a maximum charge of over 42 gr. This must be fairly close to a full case (base of the neck).

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bsavictor500 posted this 14 February 2016

My experience is with wc867 surplus powder for 50 cal. I use it in my 303 enfield no4 mk 1. I use 3.0 grains red dot as a kicker with 31 grains wc867 and some cream of wheat as a filler to just below the top of the taper. I use lyman 314299 200 grain cast beagled. I am still playing with it. I also have been working on a load for my french mas 49/56 autoloader. This for me is a work in progress as much reloading is. Anyone else have mas 49/56?

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45 2.1 posted this 14 February 2016

bsavictor500 wrote I also have been working on a load for my french mas 49/56 autoloader. This for me is a work in progress as much reloading is. Anyone else have mas 49/56?

Yes...... in the 7.5. Surplus 867 with a kicker of 4198 works well with the Lyman 311672.

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Bud Hyett posted this 14 February 2016

This experience was over thirty years ago as I was still in Illinois. Ed Doonan had a keg of H870 and no rifle to use it in using a magnum case with jacketed bullets. The idea was to use it for .308 and .30-'06, a case full with a heavy bullet.  Thus began the experiment:<>Case filled to the neck.<>Linotype alloy, hard<>Heavy bullet, e.g., Lyman 311284 and 311335, SAECO #301, and RCBS 30-200-SIL<>Standard Large Rifle primer.<>100 and 200 yard testing.Results:<> Lots of unburned powder in barrel<>Decent accuracy, 10-shot groups ran 1 1/2 to 2 inches when we our part in aiming.<>We could never get below 1-inch groups, but lots of nice, round less than two-inch groups.Next steps:<>Shot very light charges of Bullseye powder until we seated the bullet into the chamber leade.<>We were trying to simulate breech-seating<>Filled the rest of the case with H870 and heavy bullets tested again, ten-shot groups<>Could not improve on accuracy over more conventional loading.Ed sold the rest of the H870 and bought more traditional powders.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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dbarron posted this 14 February 2016

Well, that's pretty much what my ultimate experience was as well. It works, but..... Got some really pretty spectacular groups at first, but seems they were flukes. It settled down to about 1.5 to 2 inches, very round, even, and the velocity spread wasn't wild either, considering the crud left in the bore. Tried the Bullseye thing once and scared myself. Gave up on that. Its interesting, but results are as good or better from more traditional powders.

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45 2.1 posted this 14 February 2016

dbarron wrote:  Tried the Bullseye thing once and scared myself. Gave up on that. Its interesting, but results are as good or better from more traditional powders. Therein lies the problem with using slow for the cartridge powders in the 308..... they need a booster charge to burn correctly. Almost nothing is written on how to do it safely. That information differs with case capacity, shoulder angle and boolit weight used. A correct boosted charge will shoot under MOA fairly easily in a well put together  commercial rifle. Fast shotgun or pistol powders are NOT correct choices except in small cases.

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yodogsandman posted this 03 October 2016

45 2.1 wrote: dbarron wrote:  Tried the Bullseye thing once and scared myself. Gave up on that. Its interesting, but results are as good or better from more traditional powders. Therein lies the problem with using slow for the cartridge powders in the 308..... they need a booster charge to burn correctly. Almost nothing is written on how to do it safely. That information differs with case capacity, shoulder angle and boolit weight used. A correct boosted charge will shoot under MOA fairly easily in a well put together  commercial rifle. Fast shotgun or pistol powders are NOT correct choices except in small cases. What's the reasoning for NOT using those powders as opposed to others for a booster charge in larger cases?

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45 2.1 posted this 03 October 2016

When you use a duplex load, the booster charge is to get the main charge up to proper ignition. A very fast shotgun or handgun powder has a small window where that happens. That's OK if you know about what to do, but it goes from very exceptable to blown groups fairly fast if you go up in big increments. It is a reasonable approach in small capacity cases though. It is not a “lets try this and see what happens” safe scenario when people try that without knowing something about it.

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yodogsandman posted this 03 October 2016

45 2.1 wrote: When you use a duplex load, the booster charge is to get the main charge up to proper ignition. A very fast shotgun or handgun powder has a small window where that happens. That's OK if you know about what to do, but it goes from very exceptable to blown groups fairly fast if you go up in big increments. It is a reasonable approach in small capacity cases though. It is not a “lets try this and see what happens” safe scenario when people try that without knowing something about it. With larger cases like the .308, should that “booster” be ball, flake or extruded powders?

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45 2.1 posted this 04 October 2016

Provided each type is in the proper burning range for the type of main used used, they all will work reasonably well (though the volumes will be different on each), but they are not equal in terms of accuracy potential. And a 308 is not particularly a large case. It is a case that has medium capacity in a larger caliber. I prefer a extruded powder for it myself. Not really the answer you expected was it?

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yodogsandman posted this 04 October 2016

No but, just what I wanted to hear! So why extruded powder for the .308?

Is one type easier to keep layered than another. To keep the booster charge from migrating into the main charge of slow for cartridge powder?

Is the type of booster best used the one most compatible for that certain capacity cartridge or maybe the type or speed of the powder?

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45 2.1 posted this 04 October 2016

Think intensity of burn, all dependent on case size, shoulder angle and weight of bullet used. You should be trying for a long pressure curve. Remember, loading manuals have starting loads and maximum loads listed. The point where the amount of booster powder used just barely cleans up the debris is a starting load where the main charge starts burning correctly. The point where the booster charge blows the group on paper is what I would call a maximum load. Going beyond that is where you have no business going. Accuracy occurs between those two points.

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