What I have learned about making Powder Coating Easier

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Jeff Suever posted this 24 December 2015

The below is from an email I sent to a friend who suggested I post it here. Powder Coating is not for everyone. It's not a “purist” bench rest, 2 inch hole at 500 yards kind of thing. It's a “use cheaper alloys and have prettier colors” kind of thing. There is some talk of accuracy, and it is generally on par. Some guys get better, some a little worse. In some ways, I think the jury is still out, but if there was a horrible degradation it would have been called out.

What you are about to read is a combination of things I have picked up from other forums  and then validated with my own experience.

Some time back I gave Powder Coating with Harbor Freight Red a try but I was not entirely happy with the way it turned out. I used the Dry Tumble with Air Soft BB method as I do not have a spray gun. Got acceptable coverage, but I still got some leading in my HK with polygonal rifling. Not a lot, just a little. Plus it just was not a “smooth, even coat". I understand it won't be with the DTASBB method, but it just seemed too gloopy to me.  When I cast the bullets, I was “casting fast” with them and I had the little divots in the base when cutting the sprues. This caused them to stick to the foil and generally be a pain. Yes, I used non-stick foil. Yes, the right side was up. In general some of them stuck to the foil causing me to have to try to peel tiny bits of it off. Not all, but some. Combine that with the immense PITA of shake-shake-shake pick out 10-15, shake shake shake, pick out 10-15 and it was a nightmare. I thought it might have to do with humidity so I tried it inside. No luck. I bought a Star.

At any rate, in an effort to make some Christmas presents for the Chair of the Decorating Committee I decided to give this another try. I had much better results this time and here's what I learned:<> Get powder from Smoke4320 over on the Cast Boolits site. You can find the contact info http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252509-Hi-Quality-Powdercoating-Powder-For-sale>here. I know guys use Harbor Freight, but I'm here to tell you there's a difference. I made this last batch outside in the shed, next to the door, while it was raining. In Florida.<>Container. There is a lot of talk about cool whip containers, food storage containers, anything with a #5 in the recycle emblem. Don't. I tried several different ones. Cool whip is too deep. Makes picking them out a pain. Large shallow ones make a mess because the lid will #%@^&#(@! pop up about 1/8” while shaking..JUST ENOUGH TO MAKE A MESS. Get the round, Glad mini food storage containers that hold 12oz of water. They are the right size. You can hold it with one hand. <>Put enough black air soft BBs in for about 1.5-2 layers. No more. <>Throw in a fist full of bullets. about 50 358-125RFs seemed about right <>1.5 - 2 rounded teaspoons of powder seemed to work. Too little and you don't get coverage. Too much and you have clumps. <>With these containers you can hold the lid on tight with one hand while you swirl it for about 20-30 seconds, then, with both hands, shake it up and down like a little kid with his brother's soda can(Sorry Doug. Yeah, that was on purpose 40 years ago). The vertical shake is critical. It also seemed to be a little better if I didn't “burp” the container, but I can't say for sure on that one. <>Pick them out being careful not to touch the driving bands and set them on the non-stick foil. <>Have three pans to rotate. <>Bake at 400 degrees using a PID if you have it. Wait until the temperature has recovered to 400 degrees, then wait until the powder looks like it is melting, then start your 10 minute timer. (I wish I could credit the original source on this tip as it is a good one. I tried a search, but no luck.) Doing it this way I got the coverage I wanted.....most of the time. I could put about 50 bullets in, shake, get somewhere between 25 and 40 out, then shake for the rest of them. Too many BBs and it didn't work. Too many bullets and it didn't work. I chased this several times previously thinking it was technique, humidity, etc. I did this out in the shed tonight, next to the door.....and it was raining. I really think the size of the container was the key.   With three trays, you should be able to get about 50-75 per 10 minute batch. It takes 10 minutes to shake and place 50-75. Probably 4-5 batches per hour is reasonable. I used a mini spring loaded needle nose pliers. I am told hemostats speed things up. With hemostats rather than needle nose pliers you might be able to get to 100 a batch. A guy might be able to get 4-500 an hour, but not any more unless they are just dumping them- which some do.    The keys I found are:<> Powder from Smoke <>Small container to shake in <>Vertical shake <>Not too many BBs or bullets <>For production you need three pans, one cooling, one baking, one loadingI have not shot these yet, but they are for medium charge 38 SPL and the size (I use a Lee push through for this) is proven to be fine with various traditional lubes as well as Ben's Liquid Lube. I hope this is useful for someone trying to get into it.

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Scearcy posted this 24 December 2015

Thank you. This is an excellent post.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 30 December 2015

I am pretty much a traditional bullet lube kind of guy, but this does sound interesting. I might just have to give it a try and see how this shoots with various loads.

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gpidaho posted this 30 December 2015

I've been powder coating most everything I shoot for a couple of years now and it's my advice to forget all about the air soft bb tumble method and get an electrostatic gun. The gun is the way powder coat was developed and shake and bake is just a hillbilly way of doing a poor job of it. Does it work, yes but pan lubing and hand lubing work too. A LOT of folks have been turned off of a pretty good process by being to tight to buy a gun. Anyone with a real interest in the process shot me a PM and we can discuss it without boring those here with no interest in the subject. Gp

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Jeff Suever posted this 30 December 2015

Hi all, glad you find this interesting and worth a try. Using this method, the worst case scenario you are out the equivalent of a six pack and some time. Certainly can't be more complicated than making our own alloy, working up loads, measuring throats and bores, etc.

GP- I am sure you have very good reasons for the strong opinion you have, and I would be interested to hear them. The ASBB method seems to be used successfully by many. I personally do not own an air compressor and until recently did not have a place for one so that would eliminate PC as an option for me.

Your analogy to pan lubing is likely quite accurate. Like pan lubing, ASBB allows users to give it a try with only a few dollars invested rather than buy equipment they are unsure of. Like pan lubing, ASBB allows for easy change between different types. One can have several Tupperware containers with BBs and different colors/types of powder ready to go just as they could have several pie tins with different lubes stacked up.

It is my (novice) understanding that the main differences between ES powder coating and using BBs are: 1. Looks(nod to ES) 2. Fewer variables to work out (again nod to ES) 3. Lower startup costs (nod to BB ) 4. Ease of set up- both initially and ongoing (nod to BB ) 5. Overall mess (nod to BB- provided the lid doesn't pop off)

I've not seen anywhere stated there was a difference in performance. If your experience is contrary to that, I would imagine that would be useful information that the forum would like to know.

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gpidaho posted this 30 December 2015

Jeff: Thanks for your posts on PC, an interest we have in common. As John A. posted yesterday, sometimes we come across as sounding grumpy in print. We're old men, most of us and that's just who we are. lol It's just that sooooooo mush effort has been put into alternative coatings, PC, Hy-tek, epoxy and various lubes containing this and that. All this has been painstakenly documented in print along with glossy photos, cussed and discussed and talked over to the Nth degree. All this is readily available over at our sponsor “Boolits” in the Coatings and Alternatives threads. If as some are, your adverse to the egos over there your missing out on a LOT of information and testing on how to coat, plate or lube a bullet. As friends and I have taken a lot of effort to test, document and post on the subject there I think it would be redundant to start all over here at the CBA. I would be glad to help those with an interest in PC as you all have been a BIG help to me. Thanks all, Gp

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Jeff Suever posted this 30 December 2015

Hey GP,

Fair enough and well said. I'm on the Boolits site as Landshark9025 and is where I picked up PC.... and put it back down. Lol. There are a couple of applications for it for me so we'll see if it sticks this time.

Thx

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454PB posted this 08 January 2016

I've been casting and using traditional lubes for 45 years, but I finally decided to try powder coating. I wanted to keep it as simple as possible, so here's my process. I bought a pound of Harbor Freight Red at our local store. I already had a toaster oven I use for heat treating. I filled two quart Ziploc freezer bags with 100 (total of 200) Lee .45 230 gr. TC boolits cast from WW alloy and added a teaspoon of the powder in each. No BB's or anything else. I placed both bags in my vibratory case tumbler and let it run for 10 minutes. I then transferred the coated boolits onto a piece of dollar store foil cookie sheet using hemostats initially, but then after some fumbling, resorted to a wearing a latex glove and just picking them up. Put the tray in the preheated oven and set it for 350 degrees. After they began to get shiny, I let them cook for 20 minutes. Here is the result:http://smg.photobucket.com/user/eddard49/media/Sized%20PC.jpg.html>

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Jeff Suever posted this 08 January 2016

Looks good to me. I may try the ziplock baggie in the tumbler thing. I tried using nitrile gloves, but that didn't work out so well for me. Thanks,

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waksupi posted this 11 January 2016

I just powder coated this past week for the first time. I shot in military rifles matches today, won one, tied for first in another using the coated bullets. I'm sold on PC.

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goodsteel posted this 11 January 2016

waksupi wrote: I just powder coated this past week for the first time. I shot in military rifles matches today, won one, tied for first in another using the coated bullets. I'm sold on PC. Holy mackerel. Rick is shooting PC. What has happened to this world?!?!?!:doooah:

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mtngun posted this 11 January 2016

gpidaho wrote: It's just that sooooooo mush effort has been put into alternative coatings, PC, Hy-tek, epoxy and various lubes containing this and that. All this has been painstakenly documented in print along with glossy photos, cussed and discussed and talked over to the Nth degree. All this is readily available over at our sponsor “Boolits” in the Coatings and Alternatives threads. If as some are, your adverse to the egos over there your missing out on a LOT of information and testing on how to coat, plate or lube a bullet. As friends and I have taken a lot of effort to test, document and post on the subject there I think it would be redundant to start all over here at the CBA. On that one point we'll have to respectfully disagree, my friend.   Yes there are a lot of coating posts on Boolits and other places, but the “tests” are along the lines of “my coated bullets turned out purty” or “my load went BANG without fouling the barrel." :D    If that is what you are aiming for, then by all means Boolits is the place for you!  :fire

I don't understand why anyone would want to discourage discussing subjects related to cast bullets?   Isn't that what the CBA is for?     If you don't like a thread you don't have to read it, right? 

Re: spray vs shake:   It is easy to imagine the advantage of spray over shake --  shake may result in a less uniform coating thickness that may cause imbalance and hurt accuracy if you push the bullets fast enough that balance matters.    If someone has accuracy tested that sort of thing in a meaningful way, I have not run across it?    Do you have a link?

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RicinYakima posted this 11 January 2016

mtngun, Test published in The Fouling Shot last year, about two issues ago. Ric

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mtngun posted this 11 January 2016

Thanks Ric, that's probably the issue that I haven't found time to read yet.  :D

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gpidaho posted this 11 January 2016

mtngun: I very much enjoy reading your posts on alternative coatings and applaud your success, If I under estimated your experience with such then my apologies. When I read of someone using the ASBBDT method to coat it just seems they may need to read up a little to save reinventing the wheel in serious experimentation. Ric and Tech"s FS article addresses the subject very well. I very much hope you can find a way to advance our common hobby. Gp

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454PB posted this 11 January 2016

Here's just one of many video reports on powder coating:

?v=gu7UfKITMF8

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mtngun posted this 11 January 2016

Reading Ric's TFS article now.

When I inquired as to the methodology of their testing, all I got was a blank computer screen; :D:D:D    Exactly !

To size these dry un-lubed bullets required a C&H Magnum press with 18 inch handle and all of my 200 pounds Wow.   I haven't noticed any special problems sizing coated bullets.    I've never laid eyes on a Pacific sizing die but it sounds like yours has issues.   

Ric, how much diameter did your sprayed powder coating add?   Never mind, I found your table -- roughly 0.0015” thickness.  

 the more you do to a bullet after it is cast the larger the group. Odd that sizing/swaging does not seem to hurt the accuracy of jacketed bullets?  But that's another topic for another day.    

OK, so Ric's PC bullets performed poorly compared to his uncoated bullets, at 1350 fps.   No surprise.  

As I see it there are perhaps 3 logical reasons to use a coating.  1) newbies who do not want to tool up to lube bullets,  2)  casual reloaders who are frustrated with leading in their 9mm's and other guns that are not cast-friendly   3)   speed freaks like myself looking for a “trick” for better performance at high velocity.   Ric's application fit none of those categories. Still it is EXCELLENT data nonetheless.   Thank you.:dude:

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Jeff Suever posted this 12 January 2016

In regards to the three reasons to try this, there is a fourth which was my reasoning. Say what you will, but a cleaner shooting revolver makes the wife a happier shooter. Traditional lubes work well, but after 100-300 rounds, they will leave the revolver dirty, which transfers to the hands, etc. For us...no big deal. But for the delicate flowers who accompany us...... As to effort sizing, a bullet cast of range scrap +2% tin and measuring about .360 before coating sizes to .357 in a Lee push through die on a Lee Turret press pretty easy. Much easier than the same bullet of 95/3/2 goes through a Star lubesizer two weeks after it has been cast. Same .357. Sizing PC bullets takes about the same effort as bullets lubed with 45-45-10. Or at least it does for me. That said, I totally agree that more data on accuracy testing for PC needs to be done. I think we can agree they are pretty, relatively easy to produce decent volume and can be shot without leading or wear on the barrel. I plan to do my part on accuracy tests in the coming months. Disclaimer- I'm not a great shot to begin with so looking for other's input as well. I'll have to find that TFS article. mtngun wrote: Reading Ric's TFS article now.

When I inquired as to the methodology of their testing, all I got was a blank computer screen; :D:D:D    Exactly !

To size these dry un-lubed bullets required a C&H Magnum press with 18 inch handle and all of my 200 pounds Wow.   I haven't noticed any special problems sizing coated bullets.    I've never laid eyes on a Pacific sizing die but it sounds like yours has issues.   

Ric, how much diameter did your sprayed powder coating add?   Never mind, I found your table -- roughly 0.0015” thickness.  

 the more you do to a bullet after it is cast the larger the group. Odd that sizing/swaging does not seem to hurt the accuracy of jacketed bullets?  But that's another topic for another day.    

OK, so Ric's PC bullets performed poorly compared to his uncoated bullets, at 1350 fps.   No surprise.  

As I see it there are perhaps 3 logical reasons to use a coating.  1) newbies who do not want to tool up to lube bullets,  2)  casual reloaders who are frustrated with leading in their 9mm's and other guns that are not cast-friendly   3)   speed freaks like myself looking for a “trick” for better performance at high velocity.   Ric's application fit none of those categories. Still it is EXCELLENT data nonetheless.   Thank you.:dude:

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RicinYakima posted this 12 January 2016

mtngun,

Pacific invented the push thru die threaded for the “C” press in the early 1950's, however they were intended to push base first up through the die. Lee started making them when the patent ran out.

The hard ones were dry linotype through a dry die. The guy doing the coating required NO wax, lube or anything on the raw casting. Coated ones sized just fine.

Thanks for the compliment, Techie did a fine job in the coating.

Ric  

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mtngun posted this 12 January 2016

Jeff Suever wrote: I'll have to find that TFS article. TFS 236, July-August 2015.

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mtngun posted this 12 January 2016

RicinYakima wrote: The hard ones were dry linotype through a dry die. The guy doing the coating required NO wax, lube or anything on the raw casting. Coated ones sized just fine. When I pre-size before coating, I wash the die & push stem in gasoline so the bullets are not contaminated with lube.    A little more effort is required when both bullets and die are dry but if you are scraping lead and pushing very hard, something is definitely wrong. 

I can't see much from your photo, other than a small bevel at the entrance, but I would look for a generous, long, gentle, smooth taper at the entrance, because that's where the sizing takes place.   Same goes for lubrisizer dies.   As you know it's common for Lyman & RCBS sizing dies to be stingy with their tapered entrance.

A Buffalo Arms die with absolutely no taper at the entrance.   A guaranteed bullet mangler.

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Jeff Suever posted this 12 January 2016

Brilliant. Thanks, Mtngun. It's possible that might be the first TFS I have. I'm a new member and am not sure if my first TFS was that one or the one after. thx

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waksupi posted this 13 January 2016

Yeah, I know, crazy stuff. I never figured I'd come over to the dark side.

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RicinYakima posted this 13 January 2016

mtngun,

Sorry, that is the Pacific's exit hole, as I am using it in the press right now. Function is just the same as a Lee. Did I tell you I am old! and weak? with a bad arm? What is easy for some is hard for others. I have honed that die in the Sunnen so that the bullets coming out are polished very well.

Ric

Ric

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gpidaho posted this 13 January 2016

waksupi: Hope you mean PCing not the CBA. LOL Glad to see you over here, welcome. Little by little folks here are coming to see the benefits of powder coating. Works great for me. Gp

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waksupi posted this 13 January 2016

gpidaho wrote: waksupi: Hope you mean PCing not the CBA. LOL Glad to see you over here, welcome. Little by little folks here are coming to see the benefits of powder coating. Works great for me. Gp No, I meant PC, I've actually been a member here for a long time.

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K31Swiss posted this 13 January 2016

I agree with Jeff Suever that the powder from Smoke4320 is much better than Harbor Freight.  I started with HF and bought their ES sprayer.  What a waste.  Poor coverage of the bullets and used nearly 1/2 lb trying to get many batches to coat.  They lookgood on one side, slack on the other.  The theory of putting many metal bullets on a sheet of metal foil and expecting the powder to coat the bullet and not mostly the foil doesn't work.  After many trials I had a nice coating on the foil that could be separated into a nice red sheet of plastic.  Changed to the BB method and got acceptable results. 

I ordered some red from Smoke4320.  What a difference.  Almost coats too well.  I have to drop the bullets on the pile of BBs to knock off the excess.  Might have too much powder and it will eventually be used up and hit the right amount.

I tried the small 2 cup containers.  Couldn't find the recommended Glad or Ziplock at my store.  Bought a Rubbermaid 2 cup (TakeAways) with screw top.  Nice container... for chicken salad... not for powder.  It coated well but after one batch with minimum up and down shaking, the bottom split.  Too bad. It is a local company to me but I guess when you get bought by a foreign company your quality goes to crap.

Tomorrow I shoot some of the newly coated bullets.  It seems that the coating is slicker than HF and it takes less force to push through the sizer.

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joeb33050 posted this 13 January 2016

waksupi wrote: Yeah, I know, crazy stuff. I never figured I'd come over to the dark side.   I THINK I REMEMBER YOU. DIDN'T YOU BAN ME FROM THE SPELLING-CHALLENGED SITE?

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Maven posted this 13 January 2016

Don't feel bad about being banned as you'd be in good company since many have had that honor bestowed upon them lately.  As for that site, you may surprised to learn how many CBA members post over there.  I know I still do.

Jeff, Excellent right-up, so much so that I think I'd like to try PC'ing your way. All, Last year I was sent ~20 PC'd Lee TL-SWC CB's for testing in my 4” heavy bbl'd S & W Model 10.  I fired them against the same no. of tumble lubed Lee CB's which I'd previously lubed with liquid alox.  The powder charge was 4.4gr. Unique ignited by MagTech SP primers.  Both CB's grouped the same, the only difference was where they impacted the target,  There was no bore leading with either CB, but then the Mod. 10 rarely does this anyway.  Not exactly an extensive test, but certainly one which got my attention.

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

I've not been banned from over there, but have decided to not think that it is the only place to share and learn about this hobby. Until now I have always just posted about cast bullets on that one site. Figure its time to spread my wings. :)

So I figured I would comment on this. I have always had a terrible time with coverage powder coating. However, I have never had it effect accuracy. I'd have to take some pictures, but my bullets come out a whole lot thinner(you can see grey lead) than most do. I have always only used harbor freight red powder. I am now wondering if the guys who have accuracy issues are getting them because of too thick a coating?

I first started with pistol rounds. Mostly out of curiosity, and low cost(only tumble coat myself). But quickly fell in love with the ability to handle them like I would jacketed bullets. Of course, I do not have any mechanical lube sizer experience, only tumble/pan lubing. It might be hard to set aside a costly lube setup for powder coating.

Now I have moved to powder coating in my rifles. I run them in 30-30, 308, 243, and 223.

I was really, REALLY concerned on how they would do with the .223. Like I have mentioned, my coating is very splotchy and not even close to being even. In the rest of the guns, I have had no indication of it effecting accuracy. By that I mean I shoot at/around MOA with them all.

Granted I have just been working with it for the last few weeks, but I can say that I do not feel that traditional lube would do me any favors here. I am getting quite a bit of sub-moa groups from my .223. I have not shot enough yet to have a solid take on it, but have shot it enough to know its not a fluke. Right now I am dealing with gas check installation - totally different topic. I like to think things out logically. One of my downfalls because I know that sometimes things just happen and cannot be explained. However, when I thought about the powder coat on the .223 logically I came up with this.

The total weight of the powder coat on the bullet is less than 1 grain. On bigger bullets it weighs more, but the 223 is so small it does not take much. That 1 grain is spread out over the entire surface, not just one side or another, so in essence you may have a small fraction of a grain imbalance. I would say less than what you actually can weight sort bullets at. Logic also dictates that lead alloy, especially cast bullets, have a natural propensity to have weight dispersion in a given object - here a bullet.

I would venture to say that the natural weight dispersion in a cast lead bullet is more significant than a layer of powder coating. I guess the argument could be made that by not having that powder coating you take away that imbalance factor, but on the opposite side of that you could also argue that you may also be counter balancing the lead with powder coating...... Could go either way.

So in the end it comes back around to personal preference. Me, I do not care for the different colors myself. I wish there was a clear color. But hands down it is the simplest way I have found to “lube” a bullet. For me its just as fast, if not faster, than tumble or pan lubing. I do not use it to make up for poor bullet fit or in place of a gas check.

I still have more work to do, and I would like to find a better way of getting an even coat - just not thicker. However, I can say that as far as I am concerned powder coating is the least of my worries when it comes to accuracy/grouping.

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mtngun posted this 15 January 2016

Newt wrote: I have had no indication of it effecting accuracy. By that I mean I shoot at/around MOA with them all.

Granted I have just been working with it for the last few weeks, but I can say that I do not feel that traditional lube would do me any favors here. I am getting quite a bit of sub-moa groups from my .223. That's great.  :)  Target pictures?   Velocities?  Comparison to other coatings & lubes?

Every coating or lube I have tried has affected accuracy, especially at higher pressures and velocities.   But you won't know unless you do side by side comparison tests.

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gpidaho posted this 15 January 2016

Newt:  Take a look at the options @ eastwood.com. Clear powder coat is available.  I've used it and it covers very well.  I don't know why but it smokes a little more than some when curing. (always bake in a well ventilated area)  Some powders just work better than others, as with everything in our craft you just have to experiment to find what works best for YOU.  Clear powder coat is one of the powders I've found that works very well even using the “shake and bake” method.  If you're a “closet coater” you can just tell folks it's your own special hard lube.  Good luck, and move away from Harbor Freight to a better quality powder and coverage will be much improved.  Gp

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

Good to know that there is clear powder. I will have to take a look at it for sure.

As far as comparison to other coatings I cannot say. I honestly do not want to run lubed bullets in my dies. The 223 die is a hornady with the floating sleeve. If I were to run lubed bullets in it then I would have to take it apart to clean it.

I know it does not sound like too much trouble, but I would rather not.

Here are a few pictures of my testing so far. I am going to try some tests this evening, weather permitting, with some bullets sized to .226” instead of the .225” I have been using.

The biggest obstacle I have to overcome is my gas check seating. I have been trying to reach a certain someone, which lead me to this site, to see if they could make me a custom sizing push rod. At the moment I am getting inconsistent bases, some flashing on one side, crescent shaped impressions, etc. I believe once I get that issue out of the way I will have consistent sub moa groups.

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/attachment.php?id=6267>IMG_1817.JPG

Ihttp://www.castbulletassoc.org/attachment.php?id=6267>MG_1815.JPG

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/attachment.php?id=6269>IMG_1824.JPG

The first is when I was working on powder charge.  I only do this with 3 rounds.  Then I move on to 5 round verification tests.

The second is that verification test, and an interesting test.  I either had two rounds that were bad(I am thinking bases on the bullets) or my gun likes to have a couple shots.  Not sure what the deal was.

The third picture is a group I shot at 200 yards.

Of course, as I said, I have just begun down this .223 cast road.  I do not feel like I can have any conclusive information till I do a LOT more shooting.  Depending on how tonight's test goes will dictate how I progress. Hopefully I did the picture thing correctly.......

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

Try this.  Maybe it will work. Here is the powder charge development picture

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

Here is the verification test after I found the right powder charge. Notice the first two rounds were fliers, then it started to group up.  Then I loaded some more and shot a couple into the backstop then fired the second 5 shot group. It may or may not have grouped like that without shooting into the backstop first.  Time will tell.

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mtngun posted this 15 January 2016

Thanks for sharing the targets.   B)    Good shooting!   What did you say the velocity was?

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

Oh, right, sorry. They average 2030 fps

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gpidaho posted this 15 January 2016

Newt: Yes, one big advantage to powder coating is that I can use my Redding competition seating diea again. I really like the way they guide the bullet and the micrometer depth adjustment is very handy. PM me if your interested in hearing my method for coating those little 22s, it might get a little long winded for the forum. Gp

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

PM Sent. Love to hear it.

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

I have to say, I think the bad reputation powder coating has received is from people thinking its a super lube.

Many try to use it instead of gas checks. Or they try to push bullets too hard.

I think its ok to try those kinds of things with it, but I use it just like I would tumble lube. A way to protect the bullet during its trip down the barrel.

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mtngun posted this 15 January 2016

Newt wrote: I have to say, I think the bad reputation powder coating has received is from people thinking its a super lube.

Many try to use it instead of gas checks. Or they try to push bullets too hard.What does a lube do?   What does a gas check do?   What velocity is “too hard?”   What does a powder coat do?   What does a paper patch do?

After all these years, we're still not sure.    That's part of what makes it interesting.  :cool:

Newt, like most PC'ers, you seem to be using PC as an alternative to traditional lube.   There is nothing wrong with that.    It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what tickles your fancy.

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

I also wonder if there is a difference between polyester and epoxy powder? I have only used harbor freight.

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Newt posted this 15 January 2016

Its amazing what you learn when you ask yourself a question.  I just found this online about the difference between polyester and epoxy. POLYESTER powder coats are the most used of all powder coatings in the U.S. market. Polyester's offer a broad application field and many different chemistries including: Polyester/TGIC (triglycidyl isocyanurate); Polyester/TGIC-free; Super-durable Polyester and Polyester Hybrids. Some Super-durable and Hybrid Polyester resin systems meet the AAMA 2604 specification. EPOXY resin is a hard, impact resistant interior only formulation. For the most part, epoxy coatings are used as functional coatings for substrate protection where corrosion resistance, impact resistance, and adhesion are essential. The primary limitation of epoxy-based coatings is poor weatherability. Typical applications include industrial equipments, automotive underbody components, metal furniture and appliances.

It also talks about the use of nylon, or thermoplastic, coatings.  I wonder if some people have had issues if they use it because it would behave differently than thermoset coatings.

There are two different types of powder coat - thermoplastic and thermoset.  Thermoplastic powders melt and flow when heat is applied but they continue to have the same chemical composition once they cool and solidify. They are generally applied to a surface that has been preheated to a temperature significantly higher than the melting point of the powder. As a thermoplastic powder material is applied to the hot surface it will melt and “fusion bond” to the surface and then “flow out” into a strong, continuous film. As the film cools it develops its physical properties. Nylon powder coating materials are the most commonly used thermoplastic powders. Thermoset powder coatings also melt when exposed to heat, but they then chemically cross-link within themselves or with other reactive components. The cured coating then has a different chemical structure than the basic resin.  Thermosetting coatings are heat-stable and, unlike thermoplastic powders, will not soften back to liquid phase when re-heated.

Thermosetting powders are derived from four generic types of resins: epoxy, acrylic, polyester and fluoropolymer. From these resin types, several coating systems are derived.  Resins used in thermosetting powders can be ground into fine particles necessary for spray application and a thin film finish. Most of the technological advancements in recent years have been with thermosetting powders.

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mtngun posted this 15 January 2016

I would assume that the common powder coats are all thermosets.    

Federal used to offer nylon coated pistol loads, though.  NyClad.

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gpidaho posted this 15 January 2016

Don't forget the infamous Winchester Black Talons, that's what I still use for personal protection in my carry gun. Glad I stocked up while they were still available. Gp

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Newt posted this 16 January 2016

I was a little off in my previous weights. I weighed some plain bullets, then the gas checks, and the weight of the powder coat on .223 is .5 grain or less.

That distributed over the entire bullet, I believe, is insignificant to the stability of it. It would take almost the entire coating on one spot to cause issues. I would think that there are voids/imperfections that weigh more than this.

Not trying to make a case for it, but just sharing my findings.

On a side note, did some testing this evening with .226” bullets. My gun did not like them at all.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 January 2016

thanks newt ... i continue to be interested in these coatings ... mostly because it just seems they shoulkd work ( g ) .

on your observation on ” fouling shots ” ...i think we usually need them in cast bullets ...remember our magazine is named just that ...

i keep in the back of my mind ...that barrel conditioning ... is important in our groups ..... fwiw in rimfire with $300 barrels ... it is necessary to shoot up to 20 shots before the zero stabilizes ...so are our 4 inch groups partly because of a random zero ?? outliars aren't necessarily liars ...

keep up your reports, we will learn along with you ...

ken

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Myflatline posted this 25 May 2016

Old post but I would like to add my take on the PC. I have been using the powder coat instead of lube for over 2 years. At this time, I do not exceed 2000fps, none of my levers require that much speed to get accuracy. I have had no leading what so ever, great accuracy, clean tools and some vibrant colors. The Harbour Freight powders do well in the spray method, while better quality ones work better for the tumble method. I am sold on this coating, I shoot mostly rifles or rifle/pistol combinations.

Thanks for having me here on the CBA Jim

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Brodie posted this 26 May 2016

gpidaho, Don't worry they are still out there.  They just changed the name from Black Talon to something else.

B.E.Brickey

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gpidaho posted this 26 May 2016

Myflatline:  Great to have another PC'r here to compare notes with.  I've been working with my autoloaders lately, pistol caliber carbines and a 300 Blackout upper on an AR.  Good news this week, I've got the Blackout running like the old sewing machine. (finally)  And the bad, I got a 40 S&W carbine leaded up pretty bad.  Yah, it happens to us powder coaters sometimes too.  Well, I'd rather clean a leaded bore than one that's badly copper fouled any day. Nice looking lever guns. My 35Rem and 444 Marlin are Handi Rifles but would be happy to exchange loads with you through PMs if you like.  Welcome to the forum, glad to have you along. Gp

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Myflatline posted this 27 May 2016

Thanks GP,  Any time you want to compare loads just let me know. You mention leading, I guess I have been very lucky/fortunate that I have had no issues.I currently PowderCoat for the 35 Rem, 44 mag Rifle and pistol, 357 rifle and pistol, 30-30, 45 acp and am working on the 444.  I have even softened up my lead to a 9-10 with no issues.  I'm sure you know but the only time I had any issues with the coating was when my toaster oven lost an element, It never got to the 400° it needed.  Hope that helps.

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gpidaho posted this 27 May 2016

Myflatline. Well, I was riding the 40 S&W carbine pretty hard but I think it was more of a fit problem than any other factor. It's pretty rare to lead up a bore when powder coating. It's pretty easy to figure out a revolver or bolt gun and just plain simple with the single shot Handi's, doing a pound cast and the like with bolt guns tells the story but I haven't tried it with the little autoloaders and with them I could use a little tutelage. Thanks for the photos and comments. Enjoy your evening. Gp

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Myflatline posted this 05 June 2016

So far the only autoloader I am casting for is the 45 acp. I used almost pure soft lead and powdercoated. They fed fine,shot as good as I can shoot in a pistol (no marksman BTW) My theory, was to have a “splat” versus penetration. Often the armadillo does not even flinch when a round ball passes thru. Also, for home defence, I want them down and hurting. I may be wrong in my thinking, what do you all say?

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gpidaho posted this 06 June 2016

Myflatline: With the 45ACP being a low pressure round, as long as you have no problems on the feed ramp, I'm with you on the big splat theory for varmints (Two legged or four). With powder coated rounds in autoloaders, I load 9 Luger 40S&W and 45ACP for both pistol and carbines and the 300AAC Blackout for both a single shot Handi rifle and a 16” carbine upper on my RRA AR. As I rarely shoot anything but target paper and beverage cans my alloy runs harder, usually between 12 and 17 BHN. Gp

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Myflatline posted this 06 June 2016

GP, I haven't started casting for the 9 or 40 YET... Glad to hear you like my idea about the soft stuff. My 44 mag pistol/ rifle and 357/35 rem are running 9 to 12 bhn with no leading and good accuracy. I think I need to get a touch harder for the 444 tho.

My problem here in the backwoods of Florida, is there is plenty of soft lead ( at this time) but no hard lead. You will come to find out, I'm way thrifty..RotoMetals is well out of my budget.

Thanks GP

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gpidaho posted this 07 June 2016

Myflatline: “Mr. way thrifty” lol PM me your address and I'll share a little of my new found wealth, as a man that appreciates a little copper in his alloy I think you could use a little copper hard babbit for experimenting with your soft lead alloys. Gp

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Myflatline posted this 07 June 2016

You are quite the Gentleman, PM inbound

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HandsOff posted this 15 October 2016

I'm in the same boat as Myflatline. Lead WW are akin to hen's teeth here. Pure lead from old pipes, etc. and range scrap are all that's available. I've recently been wondering about alloying with copper hard babbit. I want to cast .224, so I need a BHN upwards of 20. Being on a fixed budget, money is the real issue. I can sprend a little here and there at rotometals, but it sure can add up fast; especially when trying to achieve high BHN levels. I'd be powder coating. Elvis Ammo on youtube has been pushing Powder Coated (from Eastwood) 55gr Lee .224 to 2500 fps. He's using 22 BHN from COWW without gas checks. Please share your babbit knowledge with us. I'm also interested in heat treating, but everything I hear about heat treating lead mention the arsenic in COWW (that I can't get in my area).  I can't find info on whether or not alloys without arsenic can be heat treated? That would help attain much higher BHN levels. I could always add some #8 magnum shot to the mix for the arsenic, but I hate to waste that. Thanks

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Myflatline posted this 15 October 2016

THe range scrap should give you the arsenic you need, I started water quenching and gained a few BHN. GP sent me some copper hard babbit, I did a small mix but only added about 5%. I wasn't looking for hardness but what I call “malleability” or toughness. I shoot all Lever guns so don't have a need for the high BHN as of yet. My ideal is 10 to 13. Good luck. You might search for some linotype to add for hardness, I bought some off ebay years ago fairly resonable.

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HandsOff posted this 15 October 2016

Hard to say what's in the scrap I get. Mostly slugs, various jacketed, 22 & a sprinkling of cast. I've gotten some lino from ebay and rotometals. I've got some super hard that I originally bought for making buckshot. I may have to break down and buy COWW to mix in. My hope is that heat treating/gas check/powder coating will work out. I'm also checking into swaging jackets from spent 22lr cases so I don't have to worry about hardness or gas checks, and won't have to give up much velocity. It's a big investment up front, but would pay for itself over time. I've got to scrimp and save for that though. Thanks

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gpidaho posted this 15 October 2016

HandsOff: Metallurgy isn't my strong point and my FrankenAlloy is usually a mix of what's on hand at the time. Most often I get the mix too hard and have to add pure lead and maybe some tin to bring the BHN down a bit. “Dilution is the solution” as Ed said. I'll try to explain my use of copper babbit in the mix as best I can. Malleability is what I'm looking for when adding copper. If I decrease the pot temp to almost spout freeze I find the alloy has an elastic look and feel to it. There's a fine line to enough and too much copper in the mix. Again, I go a little rich and dilute. I find that the added copper does a very good job of taking the brittle out of a hard cast bullet and to be a worth while addition to the alloy if you're casting bullets for hunting where fragmenting can cause problems. Gp

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HandsOff posted this 15 October 2016

Now I understand what you meant by adding malleability. That's good to know, because brittleness can definitely become an issue when trying to go harder. Sounds like copper babbitt can be useful if used correctly. Thanks

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Myflatline posted this 15 October 2016

GP, thanks for gettin my point across. For me , it's still trial and error...but I do enjoy that part immensely.

PS, thanks again for the babbit. :dude:

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