"The Load" Is 13 grains of Red Dot

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Ed Harris posted this 27 September 2007

"The Load” is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

By C.E. Harris, Revised Sept. 27, 2007

My success in economizing by using up leftovers of misc. shotshell powder changed my approach to handloading.  About 15 years ago I was given an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot from the estate of the late Vincent Marino,  a fellow gun club member who was an active trap and skeet shooter. I no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, “what can I do with it?" 

At the time my shooting was now mostly NRA-style high-power rifle, but using cast bullets in WWII militaries.  I was working at the time with a Winchester M1917 Enfield and a Smith-Corona M1903A3, both .30-'06s, and I also had a Long Branch No.4 MkII* in .303 and a Finnish M28/30 in 7.62x54R.  I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet.  Powder used to be cheap, but then was $15/lb. (and is closer to $25 today!)or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.  

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.

Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept “looking at me” from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! 

Red Dot is bulky compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common “reduced load” rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addressed my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found “The Load” of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot.  We found this a good starting point in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger. “The Load” has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:

1.      The case must be LARGER than the .30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi. The No. 4 Enfield in .303 Brit is OK, the 1896 Krag is not!  

2.      The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3.      The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4.      Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions now engraved in stone, “The Load” works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load” has shown complete success in the .303 British, 7.65 Argentine in the '98 actions (not the 1891 please), .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield.

Since the article originally appeared I have heard from people who successfully used it in the 8mm Mauser, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .444 Marlin and .458 Winchester.

"The Load” fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called “magnum” primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones.

I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but “The Load” is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24” sporter barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load.

"The Load” is fully comparable to “yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges.  Jacketed bullet velocities with “The Load” are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.  Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second. My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 5 lbs. of backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft “Scheutzen” alloys such as 1:20 tin/lead. in medium bores over .30 cal. and larger. “The Load” drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get a nice mushroom, without fragmenting.

These cast loads out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, “The Load” gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22” barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.

The Load” works equally well with jacketed bullets, and is a good way to shoot up those old pulled military ball bullets you have lying around. Jacketed bullets give somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with “The Load” for cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6” ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4” for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice in the Garand as well.

These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12” twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because “The Load” shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the “8” ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 today in 2007 costs 15 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to still find new powder at $21/lb.) By  substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot you get 538 rounds per pound at a realistic cost of 4-1/2 cents assuming you pay $25 per pound at retail.  Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.  It is still possible to get an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot for around $100 if you shop around.  Or just become an old vulture and hang around waiting for an old trap shooter to die and do his widow a favor!

Velocity and point of impact of “The Load” is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other “rifle” powders. If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, which is designed for somewhat higher velocities than imparted by “The Load", you have a non-destructive “coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards!

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special “reduced load” powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 14 June 2018

I believe NOE can make a plainbase, shortening the bullet to simply remove the GC heel, if you order it that way.

Accurate has a 200-grain plainbase which resembles the 299 profile, with a flat nose and you could tweak the diameters to fit your barrel when you order.  For most .303s a .305 nose and .315 driving bands with tolerance centered would be correct.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-200LP-D.png

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 14 June 2018

NOE making a PB version that would be perfect for such light loads.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 13 June 2018

NOE makes clones of the 299 in both diameters.

I use regular WLR primers.  The 299 is stable in a 10-inch twist with as little as 6 grains of Red Dot, which is subsonic.

You might try some lighter loads in the 6-10 grain range and I think you will be pleased.  Up to 8 grains you won't need a GC.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rmrix posted this 13 June 2018

Is the 311 299 and the 314 299 the same bullet, just larger?  I have a Lyman 4 cavity 311 284 I use with my Springfield 03A3. The fastest powder I have used with the combo is H-4227  (17 grs).  Maybe 700X and Red Dot is worth trying. Are you using regular LRP's?

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BigMan54 posted this 12 June 2018

This takes me back. When I was a kid we used RED DOT for TRAP/SKEET Loads 18grs of RED DOT under 1 1/8 oz in the FEDERAL Paper Case. We also used it in .30-06 cast loads. 

For some reason when the WINCHECTER AA Case was introduced,  we switched powders to 700X. Don't remember why, but I remember that we never achieved the accuracy in the .30-06 in any rifle with the #311329 with 700X or UNIQUE.  

Maybe I'll try a can of RED DOT.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ed Harris posted this 10 June 2018

Ed (and anyone else who reads this): I came across your article on “The Load", read it top to bottom, and loaded up 20 rounds of 7.62x54R with between 11.0 to 13.0 gr Red Dot (in half grain increments - 4 of each grain amount) over a 200 grain Lyman #311299 gas checked cast bullet. Additionally, what would be the minimum Red Dot charge for the 54R? My question is about the cartridge overall length. Currently, the rounds I described above are sized to an OAL of 2.830". I ask this because the data What would you recommend as a OAL for the round I've described if the 2.830” is too short? Any other suggestions are appreciated, especially OAL's for cast bullets in the 160-185 gr range. Thank you very much.
I use mostly the NOE clone of #314299 and without the GC it shoots well with 6 grains of Red Dot, 700-X or Bullseye.  If your bullet can be seated out to contact the origin of rifling, this is fine as long as you still have at least 1/2 or more of the bullet diameter inside the case, so that rounds can withstand normal handling.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 10 June 2018

I was given a Handloader's Digest on my visit to the US a month ago and what do you know, it's the year "The Load" was featured.  I thought, "hey, I know who that guy is!"  Excellent result.

Cheers from New Zealand

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mike0841 posted this 26 May 2014

jdepalma I shoot some of the shorter bullets in my re-throated 30BR with only the gas check in the neck of the case.  It doesn't do any harm if the lube grooves are exposed. Hope this helps. Mike

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jdepalma posted this 25 May 2014

Ed (and anyone else who reads this):

I came across your article on “The Load", read it top to bottom, and loaded up 20 rounds of 7.62x54R with between 11.0 to 13.0 gr Red Dot (in half grain increments - 4 of each grain amount) over a 200 grain Lyman #311299 gas checked cast bullet. Additionally, what would be the minimum Red Dot charge for the 54R?

My question is about the cartridge overall length. Currently, the rounds I described above are sized to an OAL of 2.830". I ask this because the data in the Lyman manual says that the OAL should be 2.915” but this length does not cover the lubed grooves. Is the length of the rounds I loaded too short? I sized these to the length of a PPU factory round. What would you recommend as a OAL for the round I've described if the 2.830” is too short?

Any other suggestions are appreciated, especially OAL's for cast bullets in the 160-185 gr range. Thank you very much.

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vintage sportsman posted this 27 September 2010

I avoid the “Double Loading” demon by “Double Checking” each load, actually triple checking: 1. I load all cleaned and primed brass into a tray nose down. 2. When loaded the round goes (obviously) nose up and returns to the tray. 3. Every round is weighed after receiving a bullet. any glaring weight differences are set aside, pulled apart and re-loaded. This may seem extreme to some but it takes “NO” extra time at the bench and by weighing each case after loading you can separate them into groups and shoot the same weight cartridges for score - really tightens up your groups.

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72coupe posted this 14 January 2010

I have been using REX1 in place of Red Dot. I think it is the same as Red Dot but without the red dots and is even cheaper to buy.

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PJ posted this 13 January 2010

Ed, many thanks - I'll proceed (safely) accordingly - I appreciate your advice. TY, Peter J/

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Ed Harris posted this 13 January 2010

I am not that familiar with the Carcano rifles, but my understanding is that they are not as strong as the Mausers. 

The 7.35 is a smaller case which operates at lower pressures similar to the .30-30. The 13 grain Red Dot load would be WAY too high and dangerous in the 7.35 Italian.

I would not load more than 7 grains of Red Dot with the 128-gr. service bullet and 6 grains with anything heavier.

From my experience In the .30-30 Winchester 94 these are full loads with fast-burning powder, and I would treat your Carcano the same.  You should be able to use .30-30 data for the same weight bullet of proper diameter and not get into trouble, but I would stay away from bullets heavier than 150 grains because their bases would protrude below the neck.  You want to avoid the possibility of bullet base upset which would then not go through the neck and could cause a blowup.

If you have #2400 powder 13 grains of that should be OK, as I have used that in the .30-30 with 150-gr. GC bullets and gotten fine results. Do not exceed 15 grs. of #2400 with the 128-gr. service bullet.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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PJ posted this 13 January 2010

Mr. Harris,

I would like to state here that your post ('The Load') is BY FAR the greatest shooting/relaoding post I have ever read on the Internet - TY for condensing years of experience into a concise and very useful article; :dude:

I have a question. I am one of the very few, the proud and the stubborn who routinely shoot the 7.35x51 Carcano. I have several, original, sporterized and scoped. They all shoot great and none cost more than $150 (yes, I know, they used to be $30 for a half-dozen) .... that was then, this is now. And, yes, I know, most think they're still not worth that low price.:X

But, being ever keen on experimenting without destoying myself, my rifles or my wallet .... I was wondering if this '13 grains of Red Dot' would work for me in the 7.35 Carcano? If not 13, then maybe 12, 11, 10?

I have a variety of bullets to work with;

a) Original .299” dia 128 gr. Italian 'pulls' (by the bucketful)

b) My own resized .308” 125 gr., 147 gr. and 150 gr., jacketed FMJ or SP, swaged down to .299"/.300” (depending on how much they spring back after passing through the .300” sizer (such as Hornady, Winchester or Milsurp)

c) My own resized .30 cal (.309") copper-clad 150 gr. or 170 gr. swaged down to .300” (such as Berrys)

d) My own hard cast resized lead/alloy .30 cal (.309") 150 gr. to 170 gr. swaged down to .300” (such as Oregon Trail)

I've been using all  of the above with reduced loads of various 'rifle' powders for years with good success, but have noticed the rise in the price of powder (and reduced availability), so I too have been 'tempted'  (being a thrifty Scotsman) into trying out the Red Dot 'miracle'.

My Carcanos are all in excellent shape and never show signs of excess pressure or blow back and while there's no practical way for me to check the headspace on one of these (anyone got the tools/plugs?) all my reloading brass (resized 6.5 Carc.) come out the chamber without any bulges or other deformities, and so far (after several years and many reloads - keeping them at reasonable levels) no split or seperated cases.

So, I'm up for the experiment and my scoped 7.35 agrees!:P

Thank You again, Ed.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 May 2009

Bull Shoals wrote: My thought was to use it in rifle cases same as Red Dot, same weight charges. It should work OK for that purpose, but I have not tried it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bull Shoals posted this 05 May 2009

Sorry for duplicate post.

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Bull Shoals posted this 05 May 2009

My thought was to use it in rifle cases same as Red Dot, same weight charges.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 May 2009

Bull Shoals wrote: ED, Have you used any Promo powder as a subsitute for Red Dot? Weight wise it is suppose to be the same as Red Dot, just a little cheaper. I have not.  I don't like the way Red Dot measures in small handgun charges, it works better in the larger rifle cases where its larger particle size isn't an issue.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bull Shoals posted this 01 May 2009

ED, Have you used any Promo powder as a subsitute for Red Dot? Weight wise it is suppose to be the same as Red Dot, just a little cheaper.

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Vacek posted this 30 April 2009

Boys, this is the thread to end all threads.  I think I have read it over 10 times.

Anyway I just finished loading of 10 each of 7.62X54 and 303 Brit with 16 grains of 2400 over the Lee 312-160 TL along with 10 7.62X39 with 14.5 g of 2400 ... same bullet.

Now reading the last thread it appears that 6.0 g of Red Dot in my Lee 309-120-R would not be bad for a light plinking/bunny load.... Any feedback?

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