"The Load" Is 13 grains of Red Dot

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Ed Harris posted this 27 September 2007

"The Load” is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

By C.E. Harris, Revised Sept. 27, 2007

My success in economizing by using up leftovers of misc. shotshell powder changed my approach to handloading.  About 15 years ago I was given an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot from the estate of the late Vincent Marino,  a fellow gun club member who was an active trap and skeet shooter. I no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, “what can I do with it?" 

At the time my shooting was now mostly NRA-style high-power rifle, but using cast bullets in WWII militaries.  I was working at the time with a Winchester M1917 Enfield and a Smith-Corona M1903A3, both .30-'06s, and I also had a Long Branch No.4 MkII* in .303 and a Finnish M28/30 in 7.62x54R.  I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet.  Powder used to be cheap, but then was $15/lb. (and is closer to $25 today!)or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.  

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.

Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept “looking at me” from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! 

Red Dot is bulky compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common “reduced load” rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addressed my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found “The Load” of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot.  We found this a good starting point in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger. “The Load” has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:

1.      The case must be LARGER than the .30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi. The No. 4 Enfield in .303 Brit is OK, the 1896 Krag is not!  

2.      The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3.      The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4.      Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions now engraved in stone, “The Load” works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load” has shown complete success in the .303 British, 7.65 Argentine in the '98 actions (not the 1891 please), .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield.

Since the article originally appeared I have heard from people who successfully used it in the 8mm Mauser, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .444 Marlin and .458 Winchester.

"The Load” fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called “magnum” primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones.

I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but “The Load” is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24” sporter barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load.

"The Load” is fully comparable to “yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges.  Jacketed bullet velocities with “The Load” are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.  Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second. My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 5 lbs. of backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft “Scheutzen” alloys such as 1:20 tin/lead. in medium bores over .30 cal. and larger. “The Load” drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get a nice mushroom, without fragmenting.

These cast loads out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, “The Load” gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22” barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.

The Load” works equally well with jacketed bullets, and is a good way to shoot up those old pulled military ball bullets you have lying around. Jacketed bullets give somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with “The Load” for cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6” ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4” for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice in the Garand as well.

These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12” twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because “The Load” shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the “8” ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 today in 2007 costs 15 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to still find new powder at $21/lb.) By  substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot you get 538 rounds per pound at a realistic cost of 4-1/2 cents assuming you pay $25 per pound at retail.  Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.  It is still possible to get an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot for around $100 if you shop around.  Or just become an old vulture and hang around waiting for an old trap shooter to die and do his widow a favor!

Velocity and point of impact of “The Load” is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other “rifle” powders. If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, which is designed for somewhat higher velocities than imparted by “The Load", you have a non-destructive “coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards!

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special “reduced load” powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 04 October 2007

Ed,

Nice article. I took the bite and went out and got a pound of Red Dot today. Here at Windhill, Stan and I have been shooting 13gr of Blue Dot with about any 30 caliber. Works OK for off-hand loads. I'll try to compare the two powders just for kicks. :)

Dan

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DonH posted this 05 October 2007

Ed; How does 700X compare to Red Dot in this type of loading?

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Ed Harris posted this 05 October 2007

In my experience 700X burns faster by about 1.5 to 2 grains in the '06 for the same velocity.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 05 October 2007

The 700x question also has me intrigued.

Many many moons ago I shot trap quite a bit (several times each week).  After going through all the flake powders I settled on a 1 & 1/8 ounce shot load (12 guage) using AA hulls and various charges of 700x based upon the number of times the hulls had been fired.  I always bought 700x by the biggest containers I could get my hands on.

When I switched from jacketed to cast handgun bullets 700x became my powder of choice in all pistols except for magnum loads.   it was comparatively cheap, and quite accurate.

Have you compared the accuracy of 700x to Red Dot in cast rifle loads?

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CB posted this 06 October 2007

I suspect theat “The Load” is simply “A Load". Certainly the same results can be achieved using Unique or Herco or Blue Dot of Green Dot or 2400. Probably the best and most versatile “Universal” powder is Unique.

It would be interesting to see comparative accuracy results across the old Hercules spectrum, but there's no point to it that I can see. Use whichever powder you wish, just beware that the only advantage to be found with Red Dot is if you have a drum and no other use for it.

And, think about the pressure/hardness relationship with Red Dot!! Is there inconsistency there?

joe brennan

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CB posted this 06 October 2007

I was wondering where you'd been Joe but now realize you must have taken a short hiatus to brush up on your “people skills". Keep up the good work. .>

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CB posted this 07 October 2007

When we were dealing with the business of a precise relationship between bullet hardness, pressure and performance I used as one example the 13/Red Dot load. (I concluded, after a lot of work, that the relationship was imaginary.)

John Bischoff was kind enough to run some Quickload data for us, he's running more even as we (or at least I) speak. Here's some:

Pressure (psi) and Velocity (fps)

31141, 176 gr., 24” bbl., 13/Red Dot

 

308 Win           30/40 Krag      30/06 Spr.

35502              34240              27349             

1654                1638                1576

 

311299, 202 gr., 24” bbl., 13/Red Dot

308 Win          30/40 Krag      30/06 Spr.

39082              37564              29618

1557                1542                1483

 

If we then go to the family of theories about BHN, pressure and performance; we see that there are two notions. Here they are, for wyheelweights at BHN = 12. 

1422 X 12(BHN) = 17064 psi min

480 X 3 X 12(BHN) = 17280 psi min

 

It's clear that either 13/Red Dot can't work with bullets much softer than 24BHN, or that the hardness formulae are incorrect.

It is also clear that 13/Red Dot is in the high pressure area for slow cast bullets. Much higher than it needs to be.

More to come.

joe brennan

 

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CB posted this 07 October 2007

Joe I think the point Ed is driving at is that with Red dot, is that you can use it for a variety of different calibers and only have to buy one inexpensive powder.

Not that what you are citing is wrong, good info for sure... But for just causal plinking it works at a low cost...

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

John Bischoff is Quickloading away, matching charges to the velocities of THE LOAD. Here's what is done to date. John added info on % burned, IMR4227 was chosen because it's popular and doesn't completely burn. This sorted by max 30/06 pressure.

I"M NOT RECOMMENDING ANY LOADS HERE!!!!!!!

SUMMARY

 

31141 176 grains, 24 inch barrel

13.0 Red Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      35502            1654

30-40   34240            1638

30-06   27349            1576   Peak psi at 0.3 inch bullet travel

 

Green Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      34132            1654

30-40   32950            1638

30-06   26390            1576

 

13.2 Unique

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      29183            1655

30-40   28245            1640

30-06   22571            1575

 

Herco

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      27561            1656

30-40   26704            1640

30-06   21373            1574

 

Blue Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      19453            1656

30-40   18932            1640

30-06   15121            1561

 

2400

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      17346            1658            100%

30-40   16921            1641            100%

30-06   13552            1554            100% at 20.2 inches bullet travel

 

IMR 4227

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      15577            1658            96.6%

30-40   15194            1640            96.6%

30-06   12086            1537            94.4%

 

As you can see, for at least the 31141 the spectrum of old Hercules-now Alliant powders will do about the same thing. My favorite, Unique, which works from 22 Hornet to 45/70 (600 Nitro Express) operates to give the same velocity with substantially less pressure. Now Unique is accurate, and Blue Dot, 2400 and IMR4227 are used by a lot of folks who find them accurate. Herco is in the Lyman manuals. Green Dot is a mystery to me, I can't recall hearing of it used in rifle cartridges.

More coming;

joe b.

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

A little about some other aspects of THE LOAD.

Handloader's Digest, 1997, “Case capacity for cartridges fired in sporting chambers", pp. 448-449

'Usable Case Capacity” is the volume of entire case interior minus volume occupied by seated bullet.

                                    Usable cc Grs. Water

.303 British                    50.6

.308 Win. Mil                  52.0

.444 Marlin                    51.2

.308 Win.                       52.9

30/40 Krag                    53.8 8 X 57 Mauser                56.9

.45-70                           62.7

.35 Whelen                    63.6

.30-'06                          67.6

.458 Winchester.            74.7     

.375 H&H                       86.5

I'm thinking that any set of cartridge cases with about the same volume will shoot about the same bullet weight with about the same velocity. This works best well below maximum pressure and velocity.

The 45/70 will shoot well with 13-15 grains of Unique, does it for me, has for 57 years, does it for many others, it's in the loading manuals. Also, my offhand load was 12 Unique in 30/06, any bullet. So Unique is able to “work” over a broad spectrum of cartridge case sizes and bullet weights. As are any number of other powders.

The old Hercules now Alliant powders, I've read somewhere more than once, are made of the same “stuff” with different shape/size and deterrent coating. Except Bullseye and 2400, all contain 20% nitroglycerine, according to the reference cited above. Bullseye 40%, 2400 15%.

Same book, pp. 438-439

Powder            Bulk Density % Nitroglycerine

Red Dot           .480                 20

Green Dot        .515                 20

Unique             .610                 20

Herco              .570                 20

Blue Dot          .780                 20

2400                .870                 15

 

Red Dot has the lowest density, therefore takes up more volume in the case for a given charge. This is an advantage in the war against double charging but I don't see it as an enormous advantage since we all look in every loaded case every time to assure that the double charging demon hasn't been at work.

 

I, and others, have seen increased accuracy with Dacron, kapok, toilet paper or milkweed pod fuzz over light charges of Unique and others of these powders. In particular, a Dacron wad over 14/Unique and any bullet from 300-550 grains in 45/70 has worked well for many years and countless thousands of shots. While the dreaded and extremely rare, (maybe imaginary), Dacron Wad Chamber Ring must be kept in mind, and novices warned about the dangers, that Dacron worked for the Colonel and it works for me.

 

I don't know what powder cost back in the old days, but I can buy a pound of about any powder here, with sales tax, for $25 a pound or less. My rule of thumb is that costs have increased 10 X since 1960, so I'd guess that powder cost ~$2.50 back then. If so, then real powder costs haven't gone up a lot in 57 years. In the cast bullet arena we tend to shoot smaller quantities of powder of whatever type, so the cost advantage of THE LOAD may be at least partly illusory.

 

More to come

joe b. 

 

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

My gosh Joe, you ought to get with the powder manufacturers and let them in on the QuickLoad computer software secret you are using to find the perfect powder.  Then they could eliminate half of their worthless powders that don't compute correctly in Quickbooks! From my experiences, I see there is a reasonable range that most reasonable powder choices will work. Narrowing it down to a powder from a Quickbook sheet is foolishness, as that is only meant as a guideline. Actual results will vary, some greatly.

I have plenty of pistol powders such as the most notable Unique, but I find pistol powders still need a higher degree of pressures and velocity for complete combustion in reduced rifle loads, which is one reason for crimping pistol cases. I don't have shotgun powders so to speak and am interested to try some in reduced (velocity & price) loads for off-hand shooting.

 

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billwnr posted this 08 October 2007

Joe, If you want to run a test on your hardness/pressure formula then tell me how 30 grains of Vitavouri N-135 is supposed to do in a .30BR case with a .311299 bullet and a BHN of 19. Let me know if it says the bullet is too soft for the chamber pressure.

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

Dan Willems wrote: My gosh Joe, you ought to get with the powder manufacturers and let them in on the QuickLoad computer software secret you are using to find the perfect powder.  Then they could eliminate half of their worthless powders that don't compute correctly in Quickbooks! From my experiences, I see there is a reasonable range that most reasonable powder choices will work. Narrowing it down to a powder from a Quickbook sheet is foolishness, as that is only meant as a guideline. Actual results will vary, some greatly.

I have plenty of pistol powders such as the most notable Unique, but I find pistol powders still need a higher degree of pressures and velocity for complete combustion in reduced rifle loads, which is one reason for crimping pistol cases. I don't have shotgun powders so to speak and am interested to try some in reduced (velocity & price) loads for off-hand shooting.

 

Dan;

I've read this over and over, and can only conclude that you just don't understand what's going on here.

Whatever you're talking about has nothing that I can see to do with what's going on here. If you have a specific question or complaint, please pm me and I'll try to help you out. Or just keep thrashing about.

If you want a fast powder to shoot low cost (maybe not) rifle loads, choose Red Dot, Blue Dot, Herco, Unique, 2400 or another. Some may be better than others for your application, but none is THE POWDER.

What is Quickbook, not an accounting program?

Have you ever used or had anyone run for you a load in Quickload?

Waiting for that pm.

joe brennan

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

billwnr wrote: Joe, If you want to run a test on your hardness/pressure formula then tell me how 30 grains of Vitavouri N-135 is supposed to do in a .30BR case with a .311299 bullet and a BHN of 19. Let me know if it says the bullet is too soft for the chamber pressure.

Bill;

I don't have Quickload, and rely on others to run the loads for me. I have some problems with the program, one that QL assumes primer choice doesn't vary pressure when we have strong evidence that primers vary pressure a lot in near-maximum loads. Now we have no way to measure pressure in a hobby-bucks world, and QL gives us a reasonable estimate of pressure. We CAN measure velocity, and QL seems to estimate velocity very accurately.

In the book we deal with the notion that there is a precise relationship between pressure and BHN for accuracy with lead alloy bullets. In the book there is a list of the articles/books that I was able to find that propound this notion, with several formulae and a lot of pseudo-scientific explanation. My conclusion is that the notion is BS, the formulae are BS, and that there is no precise relationship.

So, it ain't my formula. If I'm correct, QL doesn't include the 30BR in the list of ctgs., QL doesn't include some powders that I like, such as SR4759.

I'll ask Bill, to make sure, and if he can and will, I'll get back to you with the pressure.The formula is BHN X either 3X480 or 1422, and sometimes plus 15000, is the pressure that that bullet will see and operate accurately. EX 19 X 480 X 3 = 27360 ; A BHN 19 bullet needs 27360 psi to operate accurately, or at 27360 BHN must be 19. Now the descriptions vary about what happens when, “must be between 3X480 and 4X 480, accuracy declines when BHN is too high, yada yada yada. It's all nonsense. Or, THE LOAD, 13/Red Dot, can't work.

I have no hope of making this foolishness go away, once written-particularly if it has a formula and words like “ultimate compressive strength” and “obturation"; it will have a life of its own, and will outlive all of us. Hence my interest in making sure that that which is written, even and especially here, is correct. BS seems to live forever.

joe b. 

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billwnr posted this 08 October 2007

If this load shows the pressure is to high for the BHN...then the assumption that the pressure is too high for the Red Dot may be off too.

The N135 load I quoted you is shot by a fair number of people with a BHN of 18-22. We surmised the chamber pressure of this load isn't a mild load.

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

Jeff Bowles wrote: Joe I think the point Ed is driving at is that with Red dot, is that you can use it for a variety of different calibers and only have to buy one inexpensive powder.

Not that what you are citing is wrong, good info for sure... But for just causal plinking it works at a low cost...

Joe again I will say this again and only once again.

Ed's stated point is and I quote:

"Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special “reduced load” powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!"

You are welcome to start a new post to further discuss this, but with all of the talk of pressures, quickload data, etc... This is rapidly going off topic as Ed's point is how to get more bang for the buck and not how the data in quickload disputes his findings.

If you would like to continue the discussion in the direction you want it to go, please start a new post on the subject. It is discourteous and rude to hi-jack someone elses thread.

Jeff System Administrator

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David M44 posted this 13 October 2007

Ed, while working on “The Load” did you ever get up into the 17 to 18 gr. range while working with the 7.62x54R? I am looking for 1700 1800 fps with a 200 gr. bullet.

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Ed Harris posted this 15 October 2007

That would be waaay too much Red Dot!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 16 October 2007

Dear Ed,the server tells me my reply might not have been delivered.Theese computers and email business are misteries  to me

Anyhow,I would prefer 303 dies because they should have larger diameter,as I have no primer seating chamber rimless or rimmed will be gladly accepted.

Wonderful country your West Virginia ,I 'll send you some pictures of my own next week.

Best regards,Giorgio.

 

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Ed Harris posted this 16 October 2007

Giorgio,

Either .303 British or .30-40 Krag are the same base diameter and rim size. Both are fairly common, so I will look especially for those.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 23 October 2007

Ed,

What kind of powder thrower do you use for Red Dot? My Redding tends to pinch the flakes when throwing charges.....................Dan

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Ed Harris posted this 24 October 2007

Circa 1970 Culver pistol measure.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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wtr100 posted this 07 November 2007

I've got a batch of 110 gr cast plated bullets for M1 carbine  from Rainier (or maybe Berry's) would these be suitable for 7.62 Nato reloads in a 2A Enfield rifle?

Regards

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Ed Harris posted this 07 November 2007

They would probably work OK, but I have no particular experience with the plated bullets. I have used the Remington 110-gr. JSP carbine bullets in the .308 with good results using 7 grs. of either Bullseye or Red Dot. Velocity approximates the .32-20 Win.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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wtr100 posted this 07 November 2007

Ed Harris wrote: They would probably work OK, but I have no particular experience with the plated bullets. I have used the Remington 110-gr. JSP carbine bullets in the .308 with good results using 7 grs. of either Bullseye or Red Dot. Velocity approximates the .32-20 Win. heck I'd get almost twice the loads at 7 grs!

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Ed Harris posted this 07 November 2007

If you used 13 grs. of Red Dot with the carbine bullets in the .308 you would get full-up .30 M1 carbine ballistics of around 2000 f.p.s., if you wanted that. I wouldn't use that much Bullseye, but I have gone up to 9 grs. with a 110 jacketed in the '06, you could probably do 8 in the .308 Win. for about 1700 fps

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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wtr100 posted this 07 November 2007

well I did some google fu and it seems the makers suggest limiting velocity to below 1600 fps so I think I'll see what 7 grains does

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lilguy43uk posted this 02 April 2008

I wish that I had spotted this post before. I have just used Red Dot in my .308 with 190gn Lyman gas checks and they worked well.

They were spit out by 9.5 gn of powder (as a starting point) but it's obvious that there is scope for increasing that amount.

In the UK we often have to “make do and mend” with what we can get our hands on at the time and information is especially hard to come by but you have given me a lot of useful information here.

I use Red Dot  in the .308 and 22/250 to get me within the MV allowed by the indoor range that I shoot at.

Over on your side of the pond components are easily come by and rules, regulations and laws seem much more relaxed than over here. I envy you your freedoms.

Thanks

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swenner64 posted this 01 May 2008

Are you guys using a Gas Check for these loads or will these work with out Gas Checks?   I have been using Gas Checks but they are expensive. And what Bullet should I be Using?  I have been Using Lee 312 155 for 7.62x39 in most of my guns either sized at .311 or .308 with a gas check.  Could I use these bullets with out a gas check with the 13 grains of Red Dot?   I am new to casting an have not gotton good results yet so I was about to give up.  I have been using H4895 or BLC 2 I have gotton some accuracy but nothing to write home about  at about 34 grains of powder but only if I have a hardened bullet made from wheel weights.  Any advice for a complete novise? Thanks Steve

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Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2008

swenner64 wrote: Are you guys using a Gas Check for these loads or will these work with out Gas Checks?   I have been using Gas Checks but they are expensive. And what Bullet should I be Using?  I have been Using Lee 312 155 for 7.62x39 in most of my guns either sized at .311 or .308 with a gas check.  Could I use these bullets with out a gas check with the 13 grains of Red Dot?   I am new to casting an have not gotton good results yet so I was about to give up.  I have been using H4895 or BLC 2 I have gotton some accuracy but nothing to write home about  at about 34 grains of powder but only if I have a hardened bullet made from wheel weights.  Any advice for a complete novise? Thanks Steve In the 7.62x39 case do not exceed 6 grs. of Red Dot with the Lee C312-155-2R as the 13 grain load is based on cases of .308 Winchester size or larger and produce dangerous pressures in a smaller case. 

You may need to use a GC with the 6 grain charge, but let accuracy be your guide.   If the load leads, reduce the charge to 5 grains and this may be better.  Velocity is only about 1300 fps and gas port pressure won't be enough to cycle an Ak or SKS.

If you want a cast bullet load with the Lee bullet which cycles well in the SKS try 11 grs. of #2400 for a starting load, adjusting as necessary up to 15 grs. maximum as needed to get reliable function.  Similar results can be had with 13-18 grs. of 4227 or 15-20 grs of  4198 or 18-24 grs. of RL-7.  Slower powders such as 4895, H335 and Ball C2 are too slow to work well in the 7.62x39.

This should help.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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swenner64 posted this 01 May 2008

Thanks Ed,  I will give these a try for my SKS.  I also use the same bullets for 7.62x54 and 7.5 x 55 of course sized to .308; I will give the 13 formula a try for those.  Thanks Steve

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Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2008

swenner64 wrote: Thanks Ed,  I will give these a try for my SKS.  I also use the same bullets for 7.62x54 and 7.5 x 55 of course sized to .308; I will give the 13 formula a try for those.  Thanks Steve In the 7.62x54R even though you may have a tight bore which would suggest .308 bullets, throats run large on these. In my Sako M28/30 I got best grouping loading the Lee bullet unsized and just crimping the GC on in a .313 die with 16 grs. of #2400 or 13 grs. of Red Dot, seating out and crimping in the top of the lube groove so that I could “jam” the forepart of the bullet into the throat. Worth a try.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 01 May 2008

May I express a critical opinion on Unique,a keg of whichI received from an air force friend many years before the post 11/9 customs office  controls  of honest travellers.

Unique was irregularily measured from my powder measure.and had to be weighted on a scale.A royal pain in the low countries.

I use routinely SIPE an Italian double base powder very similar to unique that flows very well through all my powder measure.

If anybody might leave a couple of useless red dot  kegs at my doorsteps!

I can make good use of any old powder my shotgunners friends can give me.

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Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2008

Red Dot is of a similar particle size to Unique and does not meter well in smaller charges.  In rifle loads its lower bulk density occupies more space for a given charge weight, so this makes measuring less of a problem in larger cases such as the .30-'06 because a safe charge fills about half of the available case volume. 

If you want a powder having a burning rate similar to Unique,but with a finer particle size which measures well, SR7625 or PB shotshell powders work well, but is more dense and occupies less space in the case, so you must be very careful about not double charging!

It sounds like Giorgio's favorite SIPE Italian shotgun powder wouyld be an answer.  N320 would probably fall in here somewhere. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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swenner64 posted this 03 May 2008

Ed One more question thanks again for all of the helpful information that you gave me.  I was frusterated because I was not getting good accuacy.  If you use Red dot.  What is the maxuim charge that you sould not exceed?   I was just wondering where the saftey limits on using this powder are. Thanks Again Steve

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Flashman posted this 03 May 2008

Whatever “ the load ” is, keep in mind that this is all for fun.

   Anyhow I wrote recently concerning a pre 64 Model 70 in 06 that I will try to wear out with plinking loads. I'm not thaving much success wearing it out but I am having fun.

    I had a small amount of 231 Win powder left. so I used it up loading 13 grs. of it with a 150 grain cast without a gas check.  Using the Iron sights  < the rifle just feels right with the irons >  shot a 1 inch group at 25 yards. Shot 5 more offhand rapid fire. Then another 5 from the rest. I noticed that group opened up a bit. Moving the target out to 50 yard shot about a 6 inch group. I figured the barrel must be leading, but cleaning it I saw no signs of leading. The barrel was pretty hot. Took the rifle apart, fired up the old kerosene lamp, smoked the barrel and action good and decided the action was hitting the stock everyplace but where it should be. Guess a little Acraglass is in order.

   I like the idea of one powder. I'm also interested in shooting without the expense and bother of a gas check. The above 150 gr. bullets where pure w.w. alloy lubed with Lee liquid alox. Like I said I saw no sign of leading with the load. Need to shoot some more  

    I tried 9 grains of unique behind a 140 grain bullet in my 6.5x55 Model 70 no gas check and tumble lubed. It leaded so bad I had trouble running a lubed patch through the bore after about 5 shots. Gas checked the load does 2"+or -  at 100 yards.

   With the Red Dot how far does one need to reduce the load to avoid leading in 06? I'm out of the 231 and thought I might buy a can of Red Dot. Of course I might look through my sons stock of powder. The cheapest powder is O.P. powder.

Flashman

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Ed Harris posted this 05 May 2008

swenner64 wrote: Ed One more question thanks again for all of the helpful information that you gave me.  I was frusterated because I was not getting good accuacy.  If you use Red dot.  What is the maxuim charge that you sould not exceed?   I was just wondering where the saftey limits on using this powder are. Thanks Again Steve 13 grains of Red Dot IS the MAX. load in .303 Brit., 308 Win., 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, .30-'06, and .45-70 for Marlin 1895. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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swenner64 posted this 05 May 2008

Ed thank a bunch,  I have pulled a bunch of my cast rounds to save the Powder and I am going to buy some Red Dot and give this a try.   The problem with living in Chicago is you are in a wilderness as far as shooting goes.  Everyone living around you does not understand it.  We have a Mayor who wants guns banned altogether.   It is great to have these forums where expertise and info can be shared.  Thanks a bunch Steve

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Grant posted this 14 December 2008

Some Red Dot loads I like:

45-70 Govt.

Lee 340 (350 grs.) 2/3 wheel weights and 1/3 plumbers lead

10.5 grs. Red Dot

1122.5 fps

45-70 Govt.

Lee 340 (350 grs.) 2/3 wheel weights and 1/3 plumbers lead

13 grs. Red Dot

1250 fps

45-70 Govt.

Lee 405 HP (406 grs.) 2/3 wheel weights and 1/3 plumbers lead

1075 feet per second, 10 Sd

45-70 Govt.

Lee 405 HP (406 grs.) 2/3 wheel weights and 1/3 plumbers lead

12 grs. Red Dot

1138 fps at 20', 24 Sd (45-55-405 carbine load equivalent)

7x57 Mauser loads for a Remington 700

Lee 130 grain bullet shot as cast, Liquid Alox

8 gr. Red Dot

WLR primers, Remington cases.

1350 fps

 

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swenner64 posted this 05 January 2009

Ed, I have tried this load with two different bullets Lee C312-155 and C312- 185 in My M91/30 and both work great with the 13 grain load.  but in my M44 C312- 185 the bullets tumbles and the accuracy is poor, but the 155 works fine and has good accuracy.  What should I try for the 185 grain.  or maybe just use the 155 bullets for everything?  Thanks Steve

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Ed Harris posted this 05 January 2009

swenner64 wrote: Ed, I have tried this load with two different bullets Lee C312-155 and C312- 185 in My M91/30 and both work great with the 13 grain load.  but in my M44 C312- 185 the bullets tumbles and the accuracy is poor, but the 155 works fine and has good accuracy.  What should I try for the 185 grain.  or maybe just use the 155 bullets for everything?  Thanks Steve

I use the 155-gr. bullets. in all.  Not familiar with the 185 dimensions.

It's not my design.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 06 January 2009

Hank Williams Jr. uses red dot in his Ruger 45 Long Colt with cast bullets.

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barney posted this 06 March 2009

Ed,

I just caught up with this thread. Great work, Bud! Thanks for all the helpful info.

Barney

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JoeG52 posted this 18 March 2009

How would this load be in a Garand?

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Ed Harris posted this 19 March 2009

Will not cycle.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Gunrunner posted this 01 April 2009

HI Ed

What would be a max load of Red dot in a 30/30 win with a 115 grain plain base bullet?

                                      Mike

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Ed Harris posted this 02 April 2009

Gunrunner wrote: What would be a max load of Red dot in a 30/30 win with a 115 grain plain base bullet? SIX grains.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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gnoahhh posted this 04 April 2009

For years I used 6gr. Red Dot under the old Ideal 311241 155gr. PB bullet in the .30/40 Krag. Exceptional accuracy.

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Vacek posted this 30 April 2009

Boys, this is the thread to end all threads.  I think I have read it over 10 times.

Anyway I just finished loading of 10 each of 7.62X54 and 303 Brit with 16 grains of 2400 over the Lee 312-160 TL along with 10 7.62X39 with 14.5 g of 2400 ... same bullet.

Now reading the last thread it appears that 6.0 g of Red Dot in my Lee 309-120-R would not be bad for a light plinking/bunny load.... Any feedback?

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Bull Shoals posted this 01 May 2009

ED, Have you used any Promo powder as a subsitute for Red Dot? Weight wise it is suppose to be the same as Red Dot, just a little cheaper.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 May 2009

Bull Shoals wrote: ED, Have you used any Promo powder as a subsitute for Red Dot? Weight wise it is suppose to be the same as Red Dot, just a little cheaper. I have not.  I don't like the way Red Dot measures in small handgun charges, it works better in the larger rifle cases where its larger particle size isn't an issue.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bull Shoals posted this 05 May 2009

My thought was to use it in rifle cases same as Red Dot, same weight charges.

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Bull Shoals posted this 05 May 2009

Sorry for duplicate post.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 May 2009

Bull Shoals wrote: My thought was to use it in rifle cases same as Red Dot, same weight charges. It should work OK for that purpose, but I have not tried it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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PJ posted this 13 January 2010

Mr. Harris,

I would like to state here that your post ('The Load') is BY FAR the greatest shooting/relaoding post I have ever read on the Internet - TY for condensing years of experience into a concise and very useful article; :dude:

I have a question. I am one of the very few, the proud and the stubborn who routinely shoot the 7.35x51 Carcano. I have several, original, sporterized and scoped. They all shoot great and none cost more than $150 (yes, I know, they used to be $30 for a half-dozen) .... that was then, this is now. And, yes, I know, most think they're still not worth that low price.:X

But, being ever keen on experimenting without destoying myself, my rifles or my wallet .... I was wondering if this '13 grains of Red Dot' would work for me in the 7.35 Carcano? If not 13, then maybe 12, 11, 10?

I have a variety of bullets to work with;

a) Original .299” dia 128 gr. Italian 'pulls' (by the bucketful)

b) My own resized .308” 125 gr., 147 gr. and 150 gr., jacketed FMJ or SP, swaged down to .299"/.300” (depending on how much they spring back after passing through the .300” sizer (such as Hornady, Winchester or Milsurp)

c) My own resized .30 cal (.309") copper-clad 150 gr. or 170 gr. swaged down to .300” (such as Berrys)

d) My own hard cast resized lead/alloy .30 cal (.309") 150 gr. to 170 gr. swaged down to .300” (such as Oregon Trail)

I've been using all  of the above with reduced loads of various 'rifle' powders for years with good success, but have noticed the rise in the price of powder (and reduced availability), so I too have been 'tempted'  (being a thrifty Scotsman) into trying out the Red Dot 'miracle'.

My Carcanos are all in excellent shape and never show signs of excess pressure or blow back and while there's no practical way for me to check the headspace on one of these (anyone got the tools/plugs?) all my reloading brass (resized 6.5 Carc.) come out the chamber without any bulges or other deformities, and so far (after several years and many reloads - keeping them at reasonable levels) no split or seperated cases.

So, I'm up for the experiment and my scoped 7.35 agrees!:P

Thank You again, Ed.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 January 2010

I am not that familiar with the Carcano rifles, but my understanding is that they are not as strong as the Mausers. 

The 7.35 is a smaller case which operates at lower pressures similar to the .30-30. The 13 grain Red Dot load would be WAY too high and dangerous in the 7.35 Italian.

I would not load more than 7 grains of Red Dot with the 128-gr. service bullet and 6 grains with anything heavier.

From my experience In the .30-30 Winchester 94 these are full loads with fast-burning powder, and I would treat your Carcano the same.  You should be able to use .30-30 data for the same weight bullet of proper diameter and not get into trouble, but I would stay away from bullets heavier than 150 grains because their bases would protrude below the neck.  You want to avoid the possibility of bullet base upset which would then not go through the neck and could cause a blowup.

If you have #2400 powder 13 grains of that should be OK, as I have used that in the .30-30 with 150-gr. GC bullets and gotten fine results. Do not exceed 15 grs. of #2400 with the 128-gr. service bullet.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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PJ posted this 13 January 2010

Ed, many thanks - I'll proceed (safely) accordingly - I appreciate your advice. TY, Peter J/

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72coupe posted this 14 January 2010

I have been using REX1 in place of Red Dot. I think it is the same as Red Dot but without the red dots and is even cheaper to buy.

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vintage sportsman posted this 27 September 2010

I avoid the “Double Loading” demon by “Double Checking” each load, actually triple checking: 1. I load all cleaned and primed brass into a tray nose down. 2. When loaded the round goes (obviously) nose up and returns to the tray. 3. Every round is weighed after receiving a bullet. any glaring weight differences are set aside, pulled apart and re-loaded. This may seem extreme to some but it takes “NO” extra time at the bench and by weighing each case after loading you can separate them into groups and shoot the same weight cartridges for score - really tightens up your groups.

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jdepalma posted this 25 May 2014

Ed (and anyone else who reads this):

I came across your article on “The Load", read it top to bottom, and loaded up 20 rounds of 7.62x54R with between 11.0 to 13.0 gr Red Dot (in half grain increments - 4 of each grain amount) over a 200 grain Lyman #311299 gas checked cast bullet. Additionally, what would be the minimum Red Dot charge for the 54R?

My question is about the cartridge overall length. Currently, the rounds I described above are sized to an OAL of 2.830". I ask this because the data in the Lyman manual says that the OAL should be 2.915” but this length does not cover the lubed grooves. Is the length of the rounds I loaded too short? I sized these to the length of a PPU factory round. What would you recommend as a OAL for the round I've described if the 2.830” is too short?

Any other suggestions are appreciated, especially OAL's for cast bullets in the 160-185 gr range. Thank you very much.

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mike0841 posted this 26 May 2014

jdepalma I shoot some of the shorter bullets in my re-throated 30BR with only the gas check in the neck of the case.  It doesn't do any harm if the lube grooves are exposed. Hope this helps. Mike

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JeffinNZ posted this 2 weeks ago

I was given a Handloader's Digest on my visit to the US a month ago and what do you know, it's the year "The Load" was featured.  I thought, "hey, I know who that guy is!"  Excellent result.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

Ed (and anyone else who reads this): I came across your article on “The Load", read it top to bottom, and loaded up 20 rounds of 7.62x54R with between 11.0 to 13.0 gr Red Dot (in half grain increments - 4 of each grain amount) over a 200 grain Lyman #311299 gas checked cast bullet. Additionally, what would be the minimum Red Dot charge for the 54R? My question is about the cartridge overall length. Currently, the rounds I described above are sized to an OAL of 2.830". I ask this because the data What would you recommend as a OAL for the round I've described if the 2.830” is too short? Any other suggestions are appreciated, especially OAL's for cast bullets in the 160-185 gr range. Thank you very much.
I use mostly the NOE clone of #314299 and without the GC it shoots well with 6 grains of Red Dot, 700-X or Bullseye.  If your bullet can be seated out to contact the origin of rifling, this is fine as long as you still have at least 1/2 or more of the bullet diameter inside the case, so that rounds can withstand normal handling.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BigMan54 posted this 2 weeks ago

This takes me back. When I was a kid we used RED DOT for TRAP/SKEET Loads 18grs of RED DOT under 1 1/8 oz in the FEDERAL Paper Case. We also used it in .30-06 cast loads. 

For some reason when the WINCHECTER AA Case was introduced,  we switched powders to 700X. Don't remember why, but I remember that we never achieved the accuracy in the .30-06 in any rifle with the #311329 with 700X or UNIQUE.  

Maybe I'll try a can of RED DOT.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun.

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rmrix posted this 2 weeks ago

Is the 311 299 and the 314 299 the same bullet, just larger?  I have a Lyman 4 cavity 311 284 I use with my Springfield 03A3. The fastest powder I have used with the combo is H-4227  (17 grs).  Maybe 700X and Red Dot is worth trying. Are you using regular LRP's?

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Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

NOE makes clones of the 299 in both diameters.

I use regular WLR primers.  The 299 is stable in a 10-inch twist with as little as 6 grains of Red Dot, which is subsonic.

You might try some lighter loads in the 6-10 grain range and I think you will be pleased.  Up to 8 grains you won't need a GC.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 6 days ago

NOE making a PB version that would be perfect for such light loads.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 6 days ago

I believe NOE can make a plainbase, shortening the bullet to simply remove the GC heel, if you order it that way.

Accurate has a 200-grain plainbase which resembles the 299 profile, with a flat nose and you could tweak the diameters to fit your barrel when you order.  For most .303s a .305 nose and .315 driving bands with tolerance centered would be correct.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-200LP-D.png

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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