.243 Winchester from scratch

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Scearcy posted this 21 January 2017

There seems to be growing interest among our ranks in shooting smaller calibers.  Much of the attention has been directed to the 223 and 22-250.  This is a good thing as John A, Joe B and others have been providing some real education for me, at least. Rather than following directly in their foot prints I have decided to try to use a 243 Win for this summers matches.  There is precedent as our National Champion about 10 years ago used a 243.  I believe Paul Pollard and his son are also using a 243. 

I have 2-243 Win rifles which will qualify in the Hunter class.  Being neither a machinist nor a skilled artisan I prefer to work with over the counter rifles.  I am telling you this because some of you, more skilled than I, are going to offer advice that I do not have the skills or tools to implement.  What I will share is an unedited pursuit of acceptable accuracy from a rifle I already own.

BE PATIENT!

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Scearcy posted this 21 January 2017

For the record, my rifles are a Remington 700 and a Tikka Hunter.  Both are standard weight rifles and are unaltered in any way.  I can post pictures if anyone is interested.  Both are equipped with scopes of at least 20X.

A couple of months ago I posted a WTB for a 243 mold.  I was able to find three: RCBS 243-95-SP, Lyman 245496 and an Eagan 90 gr.  I have cast 500  of the RCBS and Lyman bullets.  I will post pictures of these yet today.

I intend to use a Lee push through sizing die but have been unable to find one locally.  I will be ordering one today but it will be several days before I am able to begin shooting my own bullets.  In the mean time I am going to compare the two rifles using reduced jackets loads and also using a small supply of RCBS bullets that came with the mold.  My plan is to shoot about 100 rounds out of each rifle.  By that time I am hopeful that one or the other will emerge as more accurate. 

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 January 2017

hi mr. scearcy ... this should be interesting ... i too am mostly interested in the 6mm for cast accuracy  ...   keep us informed as to factory rifle choice, bullets, loads, and results ...

my other gun hobby/sickness besides shooting, is trading guns ... i need to hang onto a 6mm or two long enough to get one under 2 moa with cast  ... heh ... i am currently down to a factory barreled rem 700 rechambered to 243 AI, tight neck .... if joeb is right about larger cases doing just fine, maybe i can set some coke cans out to 150 yards !!   i also am down to one old NEI mold in 6mm , it has never shot that great in the past .... but i never used a bullet squisher then ...

joeb has achieved a great 1.5 moa with cast 224 with a good mold, squisher or no squisher,  but if a bullet shoots 5 moa in a good rifle isn't it because the bullet needs squished to fit better ?? 

ken

Scearcy posted this 21 January 2017

Hi Ken

I enjoyed your input last winter when my project was that CZ 308. I would be happy to send you some of my 243 bullets as I go forward. I will squish them first though I think.  I am also going to use 45-45-10 lube at least initially.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 21 January 2017

Here are the Lyman and RCBS bullets. I may add rough dimension drawings as we go forward.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 January 2017

jim ... those rcbs bullets look like they should work ... what are the dimensions on the bands and the nose ?? ....

ken

tturner53 posted this 21 January 2017

Keep the updates coming. I'm rooting for ya. I have similar stuff and have messed around with the .243.

Scearcy posted this 21 January 2017

Ken

The RCBS bullets are .246 +/- .005 on the bands.  The nose right ahead of the first band is .239.  The nose does begin to taper.  I may need to get an NOE nose size die.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 21 January 2017

Here are my first test loads.  The jacketed bullet is the 70 gr Nosler ahead of 20 gr of H4198.  The cast load is the RCBS bullet seated as deep as it can be w/o going below the neck.  The cast load is charged with 17 gr of H4198.  Velocity unknown.

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JeffinNZ posted this 21 January 2017

Holy moly.  Those are too pretty to shoot!

Interestingly Al at NOE has been doing runs of Eagan copies.  He did a 6mm but is not showing any in stock.

 

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=25_107&products_id=185&osCsid=mjlkb4ju5lj37hdohfi86tf6i2

Cheers from New Zealand

Maven posted this 22 January 2017

For what it's worth, I use the Lyman #245496 @ .244&rdquoin my Ruger #1 and am very pleased with its accuracy.  Generally I'll use 14 - 15 gr. of IMR 4198 (or equivalent), but lately it has been 9 - 10 gr. of Unique.  No reason your rifles (or mine) can't be competitive.

BHyett posted this 22 January 2017

I have prejudices based on years of shooting the 6mm bore for fun and sometimes profit. The 6mm bore intrigued me when I first started varmint shooting and that carried over into cast bullets. I even tried cast in a 6X47 with 1 in 14: twist, but not successfully. Now that I'm retired, I plan on an organized testing with several guns to see what can be done. 

Thoughts: Monotype and linotype are the alloys, .244 and .245 are the sizing dies, high-speed lube, and the heavier bullets resist wind markedly better. You can push the bullets to 2300 feet per second with proper fit to the leade. Most bullets drop from the mold between .244 and .245 needing little sizing to seat the gas check. 

Molds: 

  • RCBS 243-95-SP (Best mold for fit and accuracy)
  • RCBS 24-100-FN (Too long, needs special throating to extend leade)
  • SAECO 243 TCGC 85 grain (Great accuracy, shot well at 2300 feet per second)
  • SAECO 243 TCGC 75 grain (Too light, got blown all over at 200 yards)
  • EAGAN 6mm 68 grain TCGC (Bought for 6X47, need toi reevaluate now that I have more experience) 

Rifles: 

  • Savage Striker: 6mm BR
  • Savage 99: .243 Winchester
  • Remington XP-100: 6X45
  • Remington 788: 6X47
  • Ruger #1: 6mm Remington 

Country boy from Illinois in the magical Pacific Northwest

Scearcy posted this 23 January 2017

BHyett

You are way ahead of me. Thats a good thing.  I have a  rifle just sitting around which could be rebarreled.  I have been thinking of some variation on the 6/22-250.  Case volume looks good for a 90-100 gr bullet.  It is going to need to wait a bit until I sort out these two 243s, though.  Can a person get to 1"- 10 shot groups with a standard 243 - in your opinion?

Jim

BHyett posted this 23 January 2017

I have been thinking of some variation on the 6/22-250. -  Three decades ago, I built a 6mm-.250 on a trued 788 action for the CBA Silhouette Class and then the CBA closed the class. Using R-P .250 Savage brass with necks turned to clean up to uniform thickness, the rifle shot cast bullets well. I have an affectation for any cartridge built from the .250 Savage case. However, today I use the 6mm BR since the case volume is similar and the brass does not need formed. I still have the barrel and might reinstall it to experiment.

Case volume looks good for a 90-100 gr bullet. -  It is, you get consistent velocity. I mainly used RCBS 243-95-SP and SAECO 85 grain TCGC bullets, Reloder #7 powder, monotype and Linotype, sized .244, high-speed LBT Blue lube, with good results. The rifle was light and hard to steer from sear release to bullet exit. It is analogous to shooting 200 yards with the .22 LR for ASSRA matches, you can influence the path of the bullet while it is still in the barrel.. That is why I worked velocity up to the 2200/2300 feet per second range to help steer the rifle better.

It is going to need to wait a bit until I sort out these two 243s, though. - I have a .243 Winchester Model 70 Varmint converted to a High-Power Target configuration. My hope was to shoot cast at 200 and 300 yards with jacketed at 600 yards. However, I changed jobs and never again had time to shoot High-Power matches. The rifle showed promise at 200 yards, but the cast did not hold up at an actual 300 yards. Velocity variations caused vertical stringing. I went back to H-4831 and the Sierra 100 grain soft point boattail bullet for all ranges. 

Can a person get to 1"- 10 shot groups with a standard 243 - in your opinion? - I think your goal is possible. My first experience was the Ruger #1 in 6 mm Remington that shot well. Several 10-shot groups under an inch with the RCBS bullet. 

Discussing 6 mm cast bullets with Mike Mohler at Fairfax, we had several observations. Mike felt he had so work the bore smooth and be very consistent with powder charge. I agreed with his observation. We discussed gas checks and their quality, a major stumbling block in 6 mm cast bullets. You can see the height of the shank varying from one side to the other on certain lots of gas checks. Sorting these gas checks, they do not shoot as well. Gas check quality is seldom checked. 

 

Country boy from Illinois in the magical Pacific Northwest

Scearcy posted this 24 January 2017

I made it to the range today.  It is kind of cold but I did shoot all 50 rounds I had along  30 rounds contained jacketed bullets and the balance were RCBS 95 gr.  The jackets were loaded with 20 gr of 4198 which is a reduced load out of a 50 year old Speer manual.  The cast were loaded with 17 gr of 4198 for no particular good reason. 

Most of the shooting was done with a Remington 700 which had less than 100 rounds through it.  I shot 2 groups with jacketed bullets to try to get a handle on the potential of the rifle.  This load is of course not an accuracy load but it is approximately the right velocity for a cast load.  The 2 groups were 1.25&rdquoand 1.35&rdquorespectively. Pictures

of these two groups are shown below.

In addition I shot 4 - 5 shot groups with the RCBS cast bullet.  I cleaned with Ed's Red between every group.  The group sizes were: 3.35", 2.45", 2.15&rdquoand 2.12".  This is the order in which they were shot.  I guess a load which is basically a 2&rdquoload on the very first attempt is not too bad. 

Scearcy posted this 24 January 2017

I also shot one jacketed group with a new Tikka rifle.  These were the first shots fired through this rifle.  Unfortunately I could not try cast in this rifle today as it has a tighter throat than the Remington and would not chamber the loads I had.  The one group I did fire was .71".  Considering that this group contains the 3rd through 11th rounds ever fired in this rifle, I am very pleased.

 

Scearcy posted this 24 January 2017

I have a handful of lubed bullets still available so I intend to load them tomorrow and take the Tikka back to the range.  The bullets will need to be seated a little below the neck to chamber but so be it since they are available.  I am going to change powder also.  There are several loads shown in the Lyman 48th Edition.  The 243 has been dropped from the 50th Edition I guess.

 

Scearcy posted this 24 January 2017

BHyett,  Thank you for all of the info.  I wonder if one of the specialty gas check makers might be worth a try.  I have a new box of Hornady checks.  I will look them over tomorrow.

Jim

BHyett posted this 24 January 2017

At the time of the Nationals in Fairfax, Hornady had announced they were not making any more 6 mm gas checks. Their 6 mm forming  die had broken and there was not enough sales market to recover the cost of repair.  Mike bought all he could find, I believe he had forty unopened boxes. I had fifteen unopened boxes which will usually wear out a barrel. For the next year, I haunted guns shows and old gun shops where I picked up four more boxes. 

We discussed the possibility that the bad gas checks were coming off the die before the forming die broke. Today, possibly, Hornady has new dies, or rebuilt dies, and these checks are good. I would check them to be sure.  

Country boy from Illinois in the magical Pacific Northwest

John Alexander posted this 24 January 2017

Bud didn't mention that the late Mike Mohler won all the marbles with his Ruger 243 at the 2007 nationals in Fairfax  taking home the grand champion trophy.  Mike still holds three national records set with the same rifle.

I am glad to see that you are going to give the 243 a try Jim.  I'm sure you will give it a good workout and I look forward to read the results. I have been poring over the first three year's of the Fouling Shot gathering info for writing an early history of the CBA.  In one of the first matches the first three places were taken by 6mm rifles.  One of the very first CBA postal matches was won with a 223 (Norm D.) and a 222 (me) placed second.  Shortly after that almost all CBA shooters fell in line with 30 caliber rifles.  It is past time for a little more variety.

John

Scearcy posted this 24 January 2017

Thanks for the kind words, John. 

It is going to snow here  the next 36 hours.  I still intend to get to the range briefly - a Minnesota rifle has to shoot in the snow. There should be an opportunity to try the Eagan mold also.  I have never owned a genuine Eagan so I am excited to try these bullets.  

The reduced recoil of a 243 was one of my goals in this pursuit.  The older I get, the less I tolerate getting kicked.

Jim

John Alexander posted this 24 January 2017

Jim sez:

"The reduced recoil of a 243 was one of my goals in this pursuit.  The older I get, the less I tolerate getting kicked."

I claim that its these new fangled powders that they're a making these days that caused my 270 kick harder then it used to.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

John

Scearcy posted this 24 January 2017

I loaded some of the RCBS bullets to shoot in the Tikka.  The throat/bore is so tight that I needed to seat the bullets with two lube grooves below the neck.  This didn't work well although the last 2 groups were just under two inches.

Just now I ordered nose size bushings from NOE. I hope they work but I need to size the nose on this bullet over .003.  That may be too much.

Jim

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 January 2017

hi jim ... ok, i can't stand it anymore ... i was sure somebody else would ask ::

did you put that great big horse picture in a post ?? ... or is just my computer ?? ....    nice horse, btw.

ken

Scearcy posted this 25 January 2017

Ken

Are you referring to my avatar? If so here it is and it is one of my favorites.  BTW photography is another expensive vice of mine.

 

Jim

 

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 January 2017

hmmmmm ... must be gremlins in my computer .... there is a 8 inch wide image of your avatar overlayed on the opening forum page ....   like a transparency; i can read the forum options through it ...pretty scary, right ?   but everything else seems ok ... oh well ... anybody done gots bill gates home phone number ?

ken

Scearcy posted this 25 January 2017

Must be a bug in the new  system.

John Alexander posted this 26 January 2017

I only see the back of the horse. I thought Jim was trying to tell us something by putting a huge horse's ass in his thread but couldn't figure out what.

John

Scearcy posted this 26 January 2017

Scearcy posted this 26 January 2017

Yesterday I cast 250 Eagan bullets.  I think they will fit the Tikka unsized.  They might be a little light but that only becomes a problem if they shoot well enough at 100 so that I want to use them at 200 yds.  As soon as the nose sizing die shows up from NOE, I am going to use the RCBS bullet to work up a better load for the Remington.

Scearcy posted this 28 January 2017

Here is the Eagan bullet loaded.  I had not used an Eagan mold before - nice!

My NOE nose size dies came yesterday.  As I feared, the RCBS bullets nose is so large that I am unable to size it with a .236 die.  The Eagan die drops a perfectly sized bullet.

Does anyone happen to have a 6MM taper die? 

Scearcy posted this 28 January 2017

I loaded 60 rounds today using the Eagan bullet. 30 were loaded with 11 gr of Unique and 30 using 17 gr of 4198. Here are the results:

4 - 5 shot group agg = 3.72&rdquo  Unique - Tikka

10 shot group = 3.30&rdquo             Unique - Tikka

4 - 5 shot group agg = 3.32&rdquo   H4198 - Tikka

10 shot group = 2.33&rdquo             H4198-Remington 700

There is nothing here to write home about but it certainly shook my faith in the Tikka.  You will recall that the Tikka was much more accurate with jacketed bullets. The Eagan bullet is clearly undersized for the Remington - loose in the muzzle.  I need to make the NOE nose die work on the RCBS bullet.

The lyman Loverin style bullet is much too long for the 243 neck but I will at least try it in the next few days.

26 degrees will a chilly breeze from 6 o'clock today.

onondaga posted this 28 January 2017

Scearcy

I'm betting the Lyman bullet will shoot the best because of the short nose and the long driving band section. If you size that bullet to an inked bullet test showing a sliding fit of the bands on chambering, that bullet will get a nice stable start before a nose riding bullet will. 4198 looks great for your application.

 

Gary

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Maven posted this 29 January 2017

What Gary said!  Use the Lyman ~85gr. Loverin exclusively in my .243Win. and have never had a problem with seating it in so short a case (neck .nor have I had a problem with accuracy).

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 January 2017

jim ... re:  sizer

email me with a sketch of what you need for a taper sizer  ... i am getting ready to do some sizers as soon as my shop gets above freezing  ... maybe we can get something to help .... 4 moa is embarrassing for a TIKKA ....

but gotta admit it makes my 3 moa plinking loads seem more respectable ... thanks ( g ) ....probably if i tried harder i would get 6 moa  ... somebody otta write a book on how this game works ....

ken

 

Scearcy posted this 29 January 2017

Maven, You were able to seat this bullet in a standard 243 w/o extending below the base of the neck?   Or are you saying it extended a bit too far but didn't cause any problem?  Just eyeballing the thing, I thought I would have to size down the first two bands to about .237 or .238.

Jim

onondaga posted this 29 January 2017

Scearcy

I believe maven agrees with me. Don't size that Lyman unless it is too big to chamber. Then get it to slide. Seat it to engage the taper of your leade .010&rdquoand also pass the slide test on the bands with ink. Ignore any bullet below the neck as a non problem. See how it shoots when it fits as I said for a comparison to anything else. That is a GOOD bullet. I can't even tell if it is a GC or not, that is no worry either. It will seal just fine on the bands, there is plenty of them. #2 alloy or harder alloy and simple tumble lube would be my first choice too. Lyman recommends Linotype for their heavier .243 current mold that is the 95 gr. #243095SP, but they recommend  #2 for the 85 gr Saeco (redding)  #243 mold in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 page116. Just don't go softer~

Is your Lyman  245496 mold plain base or a GC mold? Again, it doesn't matter at the Lyman load levels with 4198 and the recommended alloy.

 

Gary

Scearcy posted this 29 January 2017

Gary

Thank you for the very clear explanation.  When I finish my coffee I'll be heading out to the workshop.  I'll do a post later today when I have some dummy rounds assembled.  Thanks again.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 29 January 2017

I have attached a picture of the as of yet unfired rounds with the Lyman bullet.  Saami spec calls for a leade .177 &rdquolong and tapered from .2463&rdquoto .243".  After spending the afternoon with a micrometer, I believe that is pretty close for the Remington 700.  I was not able to chamber this bullet w/o shaving lead when it was sized .245.  I tried Gary's ink test with the bullet sized .243 and it touched only rifling.  So I settled on .244.  This allows me to seat the first band hard into the front of the lead.

 

The picture below has one dummy round with the bullet seated to the bottom of the neck. The other dummy is seated deep enough so I can get it to chamber w/o using a hammer.  In between is an unsized bullet for reference.  The band at the base of the bullet, just ahead of the gas check shank will be about even with the base of the cartridge neck.  OAL=2.48".  I have 40 rounds loaded for a trip to the range tomorrow.

 

onondaga posted this 30 January 2017

 Jim, 

The nose engagement will give you a good stable start at ignition as this bullet is designed for. So the nose is working to engage your Leade . However, you may have over sized the rest of the bullet. Did the .244&rdquosizing still contact and slide on chambering? Did an ink test show a slide at .244".  If it did not slide, you oversized and could fix that with some honing of the bullet sizing die till you get a slide fit ink verified. 

Either way you are very close if your .245&rdquosize wouldn't chamber and .244 did, but I'd  only give a full test when you get the fit with nose engagement and the slide of the bands as the bullet is designed to be used. Body slide and nose engagement is the best you can do with the bullet design.Then, you have maximum accuracy potential. Yes, It takes work, Your bullet design is very similar to the 225646 Lyman that I get to shoot 1MOA in my .223 Ultra Varmint Handi-rifle with the fit I describe. I do use gas checks and tumble lube once lightly before size/check and twice lightly after with White's Deluxe 45:45:10. I use an easy method to Warm bullets and lube for very fast dry under 2 minutes with the White's Deluxe 45:45:10. It is described in the lube section on this forum. http://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/9290-commercial-45-45-10-tested/ 

Also see the similarity of the 225646 of mine with the short nose and long bearing area, it is designed to fit the same way:

If you are curious about my load, I shoot it in 2 rifles, the Handi and an AR15. The charge is the lowest that will reliably function the AR with AA2230 powder. The AR shoots less accurately at 2MOA respectively for a semi-auto.

Gary

Scearcy posted this 30 January 2017

I just got back from the range.  It was 25 degrees with minor wind gusts from about 7-8 o'clock.  The wind may have influenced my 4th group or I simply may have been losing it a little in the conditions.  The load: Lyman 245496 seated to OAL of 2.48".  Sized to .244.  Half were lubed conventionally and half were lubed with 45-45-10.  The powder was 16 gr of H4198 which should yield a velocity around 1700 fps.  4 - 10 shot groups

1st group 7 0f 10 in 3.4&rdquo other 3 were off the target square

2nd group 9 0f 10 in 2.35&rdquo other out 2"

3rd group 10 of 10 into 2.35&rdquo8 of 10 into 1.4&rdquoThe two out were the first (clean barrel) and the last

4th group 10 of 10 into 2.7&rdquoa loose group in general

The last two groups were using 45-45-10 lube and a more belled case mouth to avoid deformation.  I have trouble getting these loverin bullets seated with zero damage.

Keep in mind this rifle (Remington) shot jacketed bullets into approximately 1.5&rdquogroups.

What's next?  I want to shoot another 40 of these Lyman bullets.  I am going to try to size them .245 with an NOE die I have.  Also I want to try 4759 rather than 4198 although I really don't think the powder is a problem.  I intend to shoot 20 of these in the Tikka which is a much more accurate rifle with jacketed. These 20 I'll likely have to size .244. Oh I am also going to use the new gas checks I purchased last week.  I have been using up so very old checks and they have not been inspiring to say the least.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 31 January 2017

Today was a better day.  I sized the bullets to 245 using the NOE die.  I also used a new box of gas checks and flaired the case mouths a little more than I had been.  Finally  the load was changed to 15 gr of IMR4759.  I can't tell you what made the difference but here are the two groups I shot this morning.  for the record : 32 degree and variable wind from 8 to 10 o'clock.

Next I want to try this load in the Tikka and there still are a couple of bullet molds to be tried.

 

Maven posted this 31 January 2017

Jim & Gary,  Sorry for the late reply, but don't always have access to computer here in FL.  However, let me clarify a few things about #245496.  First, although I size it to .244", I doubt I do much more than make it concentric.  Second, I seat it to 2.61&rdquo- 2.62&rdquoto suit my Ruger #1.  Third, I rarely use more than 15gr. IMR 4198, 9.5gr. Unique, or the equivalent with cast bullets.  Lastly, Jim Carmichael  writing in Hand Loader (got to spell it this way or autocorrect changes it) mag. years ago found no difference in accuracy with -496 seated normally or as short as 2.29".  I tried it and he was correct, although I did gain ~100fps in doing so.

Paul

Scearcy posted this 31 January 2017

Maven and Gary

Thank you for your input about the use of the 245496.  It proved to be pretty much spot on.  I am going to continue on in search of the 1 moa load but the load shown above would serve ones purpose for most any kind of shooting  other than competition and big game.

Jim

onondaga posted this 31 January 2017

Scearcy

Consider eliminating the variable about how much you flair and use a micrometer. I do this simply with the Lee Universal Expander Die, a case mouth flairing die. I set the die specifically by measuring case mouth diameter after case sizing, then set the flair die to increase the case mouth +.004". You won't need more and this should not interfere with chambering. If it does, then go to .003".

Gary

 

onondaga posted this 31 January 2017

Scearcy

Cast bullets are also sensitive to changing bore conditions.  Try  a routine for consistency. I use a clean dry Hoppe's Boresnake pulled through 2x before shooting then once every 5 shots pull through once.

A polished bore also helps, see my simple bore polishing method: http://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/8364-my-bore-polish-method-to-shoot-better/

 

All my rifles have polished bores with this method and I also use the BoreSnake clean and dry at the range routine. I only clean/oil conventionally at end of season

Gary

Scearcy posted this 04 February 2017

I was out digging around on the Cast Boolit forum. There was a poster who recommended 38-39 gr of H4831 as a cast bullet load for the 243. Actually it seems like an interesting idea. Does anyone have any experience that would shed some light on the merits of this load?

FWIW I think he was applying theory from Lees reloading manual.

Jim

onondaga posted this 04 February 2017

Scearcy you said,

"I was out digging around on the Cast Boolit forum. There was a poster who recommended 38-39 gr of H4831 as a cast bullet load for the 243...."

Look at Hodgdon data for the 243. There are zero recommendations for H4831 for the caliber and any bullet weight. No one at cast boolets is smarter than the ballistic scientists at Hodgdon. H4831 is not suitable for 243 and any bullet weight for valid reasons that  suicidal idiots from cast boolits deny. Don't join them in death.
Gary

Old Coot posted this 04 February 2017

I remember when 4895 was NOT RECOMMENDED for use with any cast bullet.  I'm not saying that 4831 would be a good load, but the worst that could happen (absolute worst) would be a stuck bullet.  Most likely would be poor accuracy, and a dirty barrel.  Brodie

Mike H posted this 05 February 2017

Scearcy you said,

"I was out digging around on the Cast Boolit forum. There was a poster who recommended 38-39 gr of H4831 as a cast bullet load for the 243...."

Look at Hodgdon data for the 243. There are zero recommendations for H4831 for the caliber and any bullet weight. No one at cast boolets is smarter than the ballistic scientists at Hodgdon. H4831 is not suitable for 243 and any bullet weight for valid reasons that  suicidal idiots from cast boolits deny. Don't join them in death.
Gary

Mike H posted this 05 February 2017

H4831 is Ar2213Short Cut in Australia,ADI the manufacturers list loads for bullets weighing 75 to over 100 grains,pressure data is provided.

Scearcy posted this 05 February 2017

I went to the range this afternoon.  It was 30 degrees with a gusty wind from 7 o'clock.  Actually there is a chance that the wind had an effect of a couple of the groups.  Today I was using the Tikka T3. It is the more accurate rifle with jacketed but has not shown much with cast.  I have 4 ten shot groups less a couple of fails.  Three of the groups were with the Lyman bullet and the fourth used the RCBS bullet.  All groups employed 4759 with the charge written on the target.  there are the 2 high shots on the second bull. W/O them the agg of the first two groups would have been under 1.5".  Next time out I am going to try the 16 gr charge in the Remington rifle.  I think I am also going to try a bipod rather than standard bags. I find a bipod a little easier when its so cold I am shooting with gloves.

I hope this Tikka doesn't turn out to be trade bait.

 

Scearcy posted this 05 February 2017

RE: 4831 in the 243 Win

Lyman has data as does Hornady.  Hornady shows loads down to 39 gr.  I know Lee has data but I don't have my manual available tonight. I would still like to hear from someone who has tried it with cast.  

Scearcy posted this 05 February 2017

RE: 4831 in the 243 Win

Lyman has data as does Hornady.  Hornady shows loads down to 39 gr.  I know Lee has data but I don't have my manual available tonight. I would still like to hear from someone who has tried it with cast.  

I just looked at a couple of more manuals. Speer No. 11 has loads for 4831 all the way down to 36 gr.  Lee shows loads for 4831 below 30 gr for the 3006.  The 3006 is obviously a different animal but I would be comfortable going down to 36 gr per the Speer manual.  

Scearcy posted this 05 February 2017

I took the Remington 700 out this afternoon. I had 20+ rounds with the Lyman bullet and 20+ rounds with the RCBS bullet.  Everything was loaded with 16 gr of 4759.  It was 22 degrees and the wind wasn't really a factor.  I have always wondered if there is a temperature below which cast bullet performance suffers.  22 degrees may be below that line. It was clear that the amount of clothing I need to sit there for two hours was enough to seriously impair my getting consistent shoulder pressure.  Ok enough with the alibis. The Lyman groups looked better than the RCBS groups but both averaged 2&rdquofor 9 shots. My extra ammo was expended determining that I had to keep the ammo warm in my pocket if I wanted  to achieve even 2&rdquogroups.  Take aways? Back down to 14.5 gr of 4759; Try to avoid shooting groups when it is much below freezing.

R. Dupraz posted this 05 February 2017

  &rdquoI have always wondered if there is a temperature below which cast bullet performance suffers.&rdquo

"Try to avoid shooting groups when it is much below freezing"

 

There is no doubt in my mind that cold temps definitely effect grouping. I have seen this more than once when trying to zero a known accurate rifle or to develop loads in the winter. The latest example is one of my Contender pistols. I have given up seriously shooting for groups in the cold. However some times after being trapped in the cabin till spring, I just have to hear it go bang!

SierraHunter posted this 09 February 2017

I know I'm a bit late jumping on the wagon, but I have have had very good results with my Remington 700 in 6x45. I never really got a whole lot of testing done before the extracted broke though. I need to get a new extractor on that rifle and get back to work with it...

Scearcy posted this 09 February 2017

SH

It is supposed to go back above freezing tomorrow (it was below 0 eight hours ago).  I'll get back after the 243.  By the time I finish this project, I am going to have all kinds of 6MM dies, molds, etc. I have also been looking ahead and thinking about a 6x45 or perhaps a fast twist 6BR.  I have always thought a 6MM/250 or variation there of  would be an ideal case for this caliber.

Jim

SierraHunter posted this 09 February 2017

Man, I feel bad for you. Here is south west Montana at 6000 foot elevation we are still at 45 above today.

Scearcy posted this 09 February 2017

I used to work with a lady from Montana and she referred to it as the banana belt relative to our old liberal ice box, Minnesota.

Scearcy posted this 10 February 2017

We finally had some nice weather today so back to the range I went.  beautiful day so absolutely no alibis.  I have 50 rounds loaded with the Eagan 90 gr bullet and 13 gr of 5744 which is the accuracy load from the Lyman manual. Half of the bullets were lubed in a lube sizer and half were lubed with 45-45-10.  I wanted to give the Eagan bullet an extended test and do a mini test of the lubes.  Of note here is that the Eagan bullet is on the small side.  the bands are 243 and the nose tapers from 236 to 235.

The two 10 shot groups with the tumble lube mostly looked like groups: 9 of 10 into 2&rdquoand 9 of 10 into about 2.4&rdquo Some of the bullets looked like they might be tipping just a little. The two groups with the traditional lube were at least 5".  Again some of the bullets looked like they were borderline unstable.

I have no idea why this load is unstable. Is it the small nose?? This is a light load but the the manual velocity is 1,600 so that should be enough to keep this small bullet stable.  I also have absolutely no idea why the tumble lubed bullets shot so much better.  I won't use this bullet anymore but any ideas you guys have about the lube anomaly and why these bullets are fairly unstable would be appreciated.

Cheers

Jim

durant7 posted this 11 February 2017

Jim, 

I want to say thanks for making the effort to share your info with us.  Some of us may be lurking and truly enjoy reading what someone else is doing with their 243.  I cast just 30 cal and 44 cal bullets and learned, adding a new diameter to the inventory, is not something done without considerable consideration.  My fear, my 700 243 may never group and all my investment in dies and sizing dies and nose punch and and and may be for not.  Keep up the nice work.

My one question, and not to start an uproar, did you find using 4198 that having the base of bullet seated below the shoulder a non issue as Gary suggested?  I have taken that to be gospel that I should NEVER extend my bullet below the shoulder for my 30-30 and long bullets.  Thus some long bullets I have never attempted.  Your findings?

JD in NH 

SierraHunter posted this 11 February 2017

I don't think air would give up on the Egan. The few Egan designs I have shot have shot very well.

If you think they are a bit loose a bumping die may be in order.

Scearcy posted this 12 February 2017

Another nice day on the tundra so another 50 rounds down range.  Today I shot the 95 gr RCBS exclusively. All loads were 5744. Half were 13 gr and half were 14.5 gr.  I was questioning whether or not 13 gr of 5744 was sufficient to stabilize the bullets. The agg for the two groups with 13 gr of powder differed from the agg of the two 14.5 gr groups by 1/16". The 13 gr load does smoke the cases while the 14.5 gr load does not. I am surprised the 14.5 gr loads didn't shoot better. I will likely omit 5744 from further testing.

Scearcy posted this 12 February 2017

All this bad shooting has made me question the rifle and/or the rifleman. So I shot a 5 shot group using a bulk 75 gr HP and 20 gr of 4198. It looks like everything is still OK.

Scearcy posted this 12 February 2017

JD

The neck on the 243 is so short that the only bullet I currently have which I can seat totally in the neck is the Eagan.  Based on my shooting yesterday I believe I have to give up on that short bullet. The Lyman bullet which has shot the best so far has two lube grooves below the neck. The RCBS bullet has one lube groove below the neck.

I am going to shoot 50 more RCBS bullets in the next couple of days.  I am going to use 18 gr of 4198 for half and either 16 gr of 4759 or 18 gr of Rx7 for the other half.

Then I will return to the Lyman 245496 with whichever powder has worked best with the  RCBS bullet.  At that point I will have fired over 600 rounds and it will be time to cast more.

Until I find something that shoots better than any of my current tests (1.5&rdquoagg with the Lyman bullet) I am not comfortable making any judgements.  As long as a bullet does not lead I am inclined to believe that the seating depth doesn't matter too much, though.  Now for the fire storm.

I am currently not considering bumping any bullets as that option isn't really available to the vast majority of 243 owners. I do see a couple of other molds in my future, however.

Jim

OU812 posted this 12 February 2017

Rate of twist is too much and out of round bullet does not fit well. If that bullet had more bore ride surface and were more round I bet it would shoot better in your gun.

I do not like fast twist barrels when shooting cast...I am probably wrong.

Scearcy posted this 12 February 2017

It looks as though it is going to be too windy to shoot today.  Perhaps I will cast a couple of hundred bullets from linotype.  Maybe these 243s will benefit from a harder bullet. Linotype should also make a slightly larger bullet.  perhaps if I get another .0005, I can get those Eagan bullets to shoot w/o leading.

SierraHunter posted this 12 February 2017

Rate of twist is too much and out of round bullet does not fit well. If that bullet had more bore ride surface and were more round I bet it would shoot better in your gun.

I do not like fast twist barrels when shooting cast...I am probably wrong.

I'm tending to want to agree with fast twist not being good for cast bullets. I'm working with a 300 blackouts with a 7&rdquotwist and have not been having great results.

Scearcy posted this 12 February 2017

FIRE LAP VS MODIFIED SHILEN METHOD VS 500 ROUNDS OF CAST BULLET

In the past I fire lapped, very gently, two CB rifles with very fine grit.  I was pleased with the outcome.

Also in the past I carefully broke in a number of custom barrels using some version of the Shilen methodoloy. These were primarily prairie dog rifles. The improvement was not always noticeable  but I was starting with good barrels.

My last 3 CB rifles I have used the shoot until it is smooth method.  I have come to believe that this might be a mistake.

I have 400 rounds through the Remington 243 in this test. It still seems to foul too much particularly with 45-45-10. I know a few of you have strongly held beliefs about breaking in a barrel. Opinions? Politely please.

Jim

SierraHunter posted this 12 February 2017

I think breaking in a new barrel is a very good thing. Most production barrels are pretty rough off of the shelf. The only gun in my rack that I didn't do a break in on, is my 300 blackouts, and I'm thinking about going back and doing one.

SierraHunter posted this 12 February 2017

I think breaking in a new barrel is a very good thing. Most production barrels are pretty rough off of the shelf. The only gun in my rack that I didn't do a break in on, is my 300 blackouts, and I'm thinking about going back and doing one.

Scearcy posted this 12 February 2017

Is this the one? I just cast 200 bullets out of linotype this afternoon. The bullet shown in the picture is the NOE 105 FN. It is shown seated and then next to the RCBS 95 gr just for reference. I can chamber it with no lube grooves extending below the neck. The nose is 238 and engraves firmly upon chambering. It is .93&rdquolong so hopefully it will stabilize.  I believe the Remingtons twist is 9 1/4".

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 February 2017

hi jim :: ... i am hanging on every word you report ...  keep it up .

imho, you are already attaining about the &rdquoaccuracy &rdquolevel that a box stock rifle with a selection of 3 or 5 commercial molds might expect ... 2 to 3 inch 10 shot groups .  so, in that respect ... you have arrived !!  congratulations on a very useful load !!

i do know that looking through a 10+  power scope and watching bullets strike all around but not very near the crosshair is not that satisfying ... ha ...  and now the fun begins ... the occasional tighter group will place that carrot just out of reach in front of your eyes ...  but do enjoy the success you have reached so far, and by golly there very likely are some improvements to come .... hopefully they will benefit the rest of us, ...

especially we 6mm shooters . 

breaking in the barrel ... mostly the barrel ahead of the throat will respond slightly to smoothing .... but the real need for break-in is the throat ... shooting 500 rounds will burn the burrs off the throat ... but will also burn the throat some ... so my &rdquomodel &rdquois to lap/polish the throat first thing with 280 grit ...   my results range from * didn't need it * ... to  * wow !! * ....  a lead lap of the barrel is the best ... then you can get a feel for loose or tight spots down the barrel ... but again the improvement is mostly around the throat .  you can also fire lap but only shoot 6 or 8 bullets ( jacketed is best ) with 280 grit .

ideally for cast you would use the 14 twist as do the mj benchresters ... however my opinion is that your 10 ? 9 ? twist is not the reason you get 3 inch not 1.5 inch groups, especially at 2000 fps;  once you get to 1.5 groups you might start needing a 14 twist ( g ) ....

just some thoughts, keep on following your plan ....

oh, my worst loads .... big groups ... have been because of small noses under bore dia. ... they should engrave as much as you can chamber without causing varying seating depth ... hah another complexity .

thanks for the effort

ken, member, 6mm casters wannabees

Scearcy posted this 13 February 2017

One of the rifles is a 9 1/4 twist and one is a 10 twist. When shooting factory barrels, I think this is the extent of my options with a factory gun.  I know slow twist is getting popular and I understand the physics of the whole notion. To me the balancing act seems to be bullet stability at 200 yards.  I can see already that these 243 bullets behave more like 22 cal than 30 cal when it gets windy.  One solution is to ignore 200 yards, have fun at 100 yards and be happy. 

Right now I am not aware of  a light weight 6mm spitzer mold other than the one Mtn Gun was using for his work.  I believe he made that mold himself?

As a point of reference the National Record Hunter class 10 shot Agg (2-10 shot groups) is just over 1&rdquo. This record was set by a very good MN shooter using a proven 308. I think about this number frequently as the outer bound of what is possible with a factory sporter.  I would be tickled pink as they say to get an occasional 10 shot agg in the 1 1/4&rdquorange. The Lyman bullet looks like it can approach 1 1/2&rdquoaggs (10 shot groups which is important) consistently. Perhaps it will be better when made of Linotype.

If we couldn't enjoy trying and failing we should give of cast bullets I think. Ken I sent you a PM for some advice!!

Jim

John Alexander posted this 13 February 2017

Jim,

Don't know if you already knew but Mtn Gun is Mountain Molds.  Since he features the bullet he posted about here  i assume he sells molds for them if you are interested.  Of course they are short bullets for slow twists. I doubt the advantage for your twists.  Very few CBA matches are won with short bullets in either factory classes or custom classes, although the set up he was using for his high velocity loads could change that if he follows through on more development and enters CBA matches.

John

Scearcy posted this 14 February 2017

Sunny, 45 degrees and a 10-15 mph wind from 8 oclock. I think the groups may show the influence of the wind.  After shooting this rifle for the past month, I have made some changes to my bench setup.  It is very sensitive to trigger hand grip position and cheek pressure. The difference between some of these groups is a simple a moving my thumb 1/2". This rifle likes to be clean but it also demands 2 fouling shots before you start a group. I have found that it needs to be wet brushed at least every other group. This should improve with a few hundred more rounds I would think.

My purpose today was to try two slower powders - H4198 and Rx7.  My changing grip and the changing wind muddled things up a bit but one Rx7 group caught my attention so that is the powder I will use for the next 100 rounds or so.  Today was the last of the softer bullets. Next time out I will use linotype. an move the powder charge up 1.5 gr to 19.5 Rx7.

Here are the groups. The high shot in the best group was the second shot out of the gun today - a clean somewhat cold barrel. 

Scearcy posted this 15 February 2017

I was cold and windy today but I wanted to do the first run with linotype and the Tikka.  The photo below has the details. my next test will be this RCBS bullet ; 3 -10 shot groups; 19.5, 20, and 20.5 gr of Rx7; Tikka rifle. 2 of the last 3 groups with Rx7 and the RCBS bullet have been winners. Perhaps----

 

Loren Barber posted this 15 February 2017

Jim,

Paul Pollard gave me some 6 mm bullets that weigh 75 grains.  I am shooting them in my 6 ppc Panda with Hart barrel. I am willing to share some of them when I see you next.  I use about 13.5 grains of IMR 4227.  I have ordered a mold from LBT.  I see that Larry Rickertson used the same bullet with 8208 with some good results at Wind Hill.

Loren

Scearcy posted this 15 February 2017

Thank you Loren.  Always interested in LBT bullets

Jim

Scearcy posted this 15 February 2017

I had 30, exactly, linotype RCBS 245-95 left. I decided to shoot 3-10 shot groups which left me no bullets for foulers (duh, I should have used some Lyman bullets) The groups used 19.5, 20, 20.5 gr of Rx7 respectively.  I shot H____S____! today. The first group is useless but it is the same load I shot last night in the wind. In the second group, the first shot, recall no foulers, was out 1/2".  The remaining 9 went into .8".  This was the 20 gr load. The 20.5 gr load started to open up.  The sweet spot is between 19.0 and 20.0 gr of Rx7. I will try the 19.0 load when I have more bullets cast.

I am also going to try 17.5 gr of H4198. This is the load Mike Mohler used when he was dominant at the national level with his 243.  I think that is good enough for us to give it a try.

The Tikka obviously shoots very well.  In fact I think it pretty clearly is better than I am. It does have a 10&rdquotwist though. The reason I mention this is that I have 100 of the NOE 105 gr bullets on hand.  They may not stabilize out of a 10&rdquotwist. We will try and see what happens.

It is likely that I won't do much more with the Tikka and the 95 gr bullet for a while.  I may very well shoot it in matches this summer.  In order to improve from where we are, prepping cases, weighing bullets, fine tuning bench set up, etc. would and will be required. I am not going to go there in this thread.

Scearcy posted this 16 February 2017

Sorry I tend to forget that not everyone is familiar with the CBA target.  I added a couple of coins to the picture to give a little better scale to the groups.

Scearcy posted this 16 February 2017

durant7

If you decide you would like to try cast in your 243 PM me and I would be happy to send you a couple kinds of bullets to try. I'll be making a bunch of them.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 16 February 2017

It may be useful to sort of summarize the things I have learned so far. I just reread this thread and it is getting very unwieldy. So here are some of the high points: The Lyman 245495  seems like a good choice for lite loads. When I cast it a little softer and moved it at 1600 fps, it shot pretty well. The RCBS 245-95 bullet really came into its own when made of linotype. It shoots well in the 1900 to 2000 fps window. The Eagan bullet is too small. I may try it with mouse fart loads. I believe that 4198 and Rx7 are solid powder choices. 4759 (discontinued anyhow) worked well with the lite loads. 

It doesn't seem to hurt to seat the bullets below the base of the neck.

Joe Bs hypothesis that a rifle won't shoot cast if it won't shoot jacketed at a similar velocity - appears very true.  

Do to poor 6MM gas checks, you cannot“get by&rdquowith bullets with rounded bases. Nor can you get by if you shave lead seating these little bullets.

I really haven't discovered anything new here. Maven, Onodaga, and BHyatt had been there first with the best loads I have found so far.

My Tikka is capable of being a good 200 yard beer can rifle for both youngsters and old guys.

Jim

  • Liked by
  • Maven
Maven posted this 16 February 2017

Thanks for the compliment, Jim!  Btw, I believe my overall average (mean) for #245496 @ 100 yd. with my Ruger #1 is 1.3&rdquo(don't have access to my records at the moment) using such propellants as IMR 4198, TVEN (a milsurp flake version of 4198), AA 2015, and AA 5744.  In additiion, I acquired a pristine HP version of -496, but it wasn't quite as accurate as the“original&rdquoand sold it.  It's a rare bird, but may be worth experimenting with IF you can find one in VG condition at a good price.

OU812 posted this 19 February 2017

The nose shape of this bullet (Seaco#243) would make it easy to bump using matching nose punch. Although I do not like the tapered area toward bands.

Have you done a chamber cast? What does the throat look like?

Scearcy posted this 19 February 2017

That is about the only 6mm mold I haven't bought yet so I suppose eventually I will.  I haven't done a chamber cast yet.  I am always a little hesitant to bump up a lead slug in the throat although I have gotten reasonably proficient in a 30 cal. I haven't tried to find a snug rod for a .237 bore. It would take a 7/32 rod and I don't  know if there is such a thing that is readily available.

Even my gunsmith won't use cerosafe sp? so that really isn't an option.

Jim

OU812 posted this 19 February 2017

Mold makers love to see customers chasing their tales and buying more molds.

Try bumping one of your bullets. The long NOE may be a good one.

Scearcy posted this 19 February 2017

TooTrue! I cast my trial bullets in that NOE mould out of a softer alloy and they fit well. Then I cast up 100 out of lino and being a little bigger and a little harder, they aren't going to work unless I can size the nose which is not easy with lino.  I am going to Beagle my Eagan mold, melt some Lyman #2 alloy and make a batch of Eagans and a batch of NOEs. Perhaps now that I am a little smarter about sizing, powder choice and bench setup I will be able to make them go and go well w/o being made out of lino.

The RCBS bullets still shoot well made out of lino and pushed fairly hard. I took a bore scope to my Remington to see what I could see.  I now have a better idea of why that rifle wouldn't even shoot jacketed under 1 1/2. So I am watching gun broker for a Remington take off. I hate  that. It is a crap shoot but what are you going to do if you want to shoot Hunter or Production? Take offs are lot cheaper than another rifle.

Jim

OU812 posted this 20 February 2017

Scearcy,

I like your #2 alloy idea, but try shooting some immediately after casting and record results. Then shoot the same batch of bullets again after two weeks of age hardening.

Sizing and seating gas checks on fresh soft cast bullets base first will bump the bullet some. Not round...only fatter.

Scearcy posted this 20 February 2017

To wet to shoot today so it was a good day to replenish the bullet supply. 450 little beauties.  I hope they are obedient.

 

 

Paul Pollard posted this 21 February 2017

Jim,

What number & letter are stamped on your Eagan mold? What alloy did you use, and what was the weight? Base band diameter and nose diameter?

My MX2-243 casts .2442 on the base band. Originally the nose was .235 (this was in linotype). After polishing the nose, it now casts at .2385. It now weighs 80.5 grains.

The RCBS 243-095 Shot well in a 6mm Remington with 1:9 twist. Powder was 15.5 gr IMR 4227.

Paul

Scearcy posted this 21 February 2017

Paul,

Mine is the MX2-243 also. It casts just over .243 on the bands and the nose is around .235 also. I tried shooting them that way and while accuracy wasn't terrible, the leading was. I Beagled the mold yesterday. They are now almost .245 on the bands. For some reason Beagling didn't help the nose much and they are just under .237 across the seams but still only .235 with the seams.  I am going to try to bump them up a little in the lube sizer just so they don't lead but of course it is difficult to get consistency and real accuracy that way.

I have never tried lapping a brass mold but I sure hate to give up on this old classic.

Jim

 

Scearcy posted this 21 February 2017

Took the Tikka to the range today.  The Tikka has a 10&rdquotwist.  I tried the NOE 105 gr bullets. As the math suggested, they were not stable.  When I get the 9&rdquotwist Remington back up and running, I will try them again.

I also took the Eagan 80 gr bullets.  I need to post a couple of pictures to tell that story so I will be back in a few hours to do that. I am going to need to try to lap that mold.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 22 February 2017

  Yesterday I Beagled  an Eagan mold that makes bullets which are simply too small. After Beagling it produces bullets which are slightly oblong: .2442 across the bands and .2355 on the nose. I bumped them up in the sizing die a little and decided to shoot a few.  My load was 17.5 gr of 4198 which as it turns out did not produce enough pressure to seal the case mouths.

I ended up with a strange group (I only shot 1 10 shot group). I have two distinct groups WHICH I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE WAS MY FAULT and then two shots well out.  Was it the under powered  loads or the Beagled bullets that led to the two bad shots. I don't know but it seems apparent that this bullet will shoot in this rifle since 8 out of 10 should have been under 1&rdquohad I done my job.  I am going to try some different loads tomorrow. I want to make the loads just potent enough to seal the cases. 

I someone is an expert on lapping a brass mold about .003 larger, please weigh in.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 22 February 2017

this is the missing photo

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 February 2017

hi jim ...  don't read too much into your group ... &rdquoit is what it is &rdquo...heh ...

but : maybe since your necks are smoked the ignition is a little erratic and thus you wandered into more than one barrel harmonic ... when we played with tuners not only did the group size change but also the &rdquozero“' ....

feel better now ?

my methods of enlarging mold diameter :  being partly a pragmatic blacksmith, it is probably better to not mention my methods to do so .... but even my resulting lumpy noses did improve grouping .... i guess it was better than * beagling * , but not professional at all .

funny how pretty bullets don't necessarily shoot good ( mysterious joeb quandry  ) .... but sometimes ugly bullets do well ... is there a pattern ?  do good cooks really make the best wives ?

enjoying your adventures.

ken

 

Scearcy posted this 22 February 2017

Good morning Ken,  

The only thing I can tell you for sure is that a good cook certainly has a leg up in winning the best wife award.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 22 February 2017

Three more groups to share.  These are all the Eagan (Beagled) bullet and the Tikka rifle.  I should note that the Eagan bullet leads a little even after I Beagled the mold. I believe all of the pertinent info is in the picture.  4759 just does not seem to work well in these 243s. I think that 15.5 gr of 4227 might be better and 19.5 of Rx7 really does look like the sweet spot.

Paul Pollard posted this 23 February 2017

Jim,

Would you like some Eagan bullets, sized, lubed, checked? They have a .238 nose and .2445 base. This might save the aggravation of polishing your mold, only to find it isn't that great anyway? If so, I can also send some of the 75 grain LBT that Loren referenced. 

These are tapered on the front band. The result is kind of like an Eagan MX4.

 

Paul

Scearcy posted this 23 February 2017

Paul

Thank you for the kind offer.  Can I take a rain check? I did a poor job placing the metal tape on that mold.  I think I can improve the bullets nose if I clean the mold up and put on new metal tape in slightly different locations.  It probably still will not produce groups under 1.25&rdquohowever that is good enough for everything but competition. I may well drop it at that point.

Jim

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 February 2017

jim ... i keep looking at that 15 gr 4227 ....i wonder if it might be worth trying 15.5, 16.0, 16.5  ....

just in case you run out of something to do ( g ) .

ken

R. Dupraz posted this 24 February 2017

Interesting suggestion Ken!

 

For some reason I have found that 14-18 grains of 4227 has turned out to be the accuracy load for cast in the .308, .257 Roberts, two 38-55's, 32-40 HW schuetzen when breach seating and an "06" “03".. As well as an M-1 when using it as a single shot. Those two“06's&rdquouse the 18.

Have never tried any cast in the .243 but in light of the above track record for me, it would be an interesting experiment.     

 

 

Scearcy posted this 24 February 2017

OK we will do it.  I have been thinking that these 243s are somewhat more picky about powder choice than the 30 cals I am used to. The faster powders I often use produce erratic groups so far. At the same time I have only gotten acceptable accuracy when the pressure is adequate to seal the case neck. If you have been following my stumbling steps 4198, 4227, and Rx7 seem to be contenders.  I am getting comfortable that 19.5 or 20 gr of Rx7 is  consistently good with 95 gr and up bullets. I hadn't used 4227 before yesterday. Based on the  vertical stringing in that group I think you guys are right about upping the charge and trying some more groups. I suspect it will require 1/2  or 1 grain more with the light Eagan bullet than it would with the RCBS bullet.It looks like it will require at least 18.5 gr of 4198 to generate enough pressure to get into the sweet spot.

I cleaned and reBeagled (that can't be a word) the Eagan mold this afternoon so I can make a run of 100 more bullets in the morning. It will be too stormy and windy to go to the range anyhow.

I also received my replacement barrel for the Remington 700 today. It is unfired as advertised. The bore looks like a cheese grater but I guess that is normal. I am anxious to get that rifle working as the faster twist is required for the NOE 105 gr bullet.

I am growing to like this caliber but it is a bit moody about its likes and dislikes.

Jim

I appreciate the helpful feedback.

I

Scearcy posted this 25 February 2017

I mentioned earlier that my Eagan MX2-243 mold drops bullets that are too small. Yesterday I cast 200 bullets with the mold after I adjusted the degree of Beagling.  Originally the bullets were .243 at the bands and a .235 nose. Post Beagling (Version 2.0) the bullets bases are .2445 on the seams and .247 across the seams. The noses are .236 on the seams and .239 across the seams.

One of the reasons I continue to fool with this bullet is that it feeds flawlessly in the Tikka.  I have visions of an 1850 fps load with adequate power and accuracy to be the proverbial small game and/or younger shooter load.

Its going to be too cold and windy to shoot today.

Jim

Rich/WIS posted this 26 February 2017

Been following the discussion, also want a decent load for my 243.  Using the RCBS 243-95 at 100 yards found that my M70 FWT (new model) liked lighter loads.  13.5 gr produced groups about 1.5 in and as the load increased accuracy headed south. By the time I got to 18-19 grs groups ran closer to 3+.  Have since tried it with 18 grs of 4759 for about 2 MOA.  Don't recall the nose diameter but it was smaller than I thought it should be so I got rid of it.

Got the NOE 246-105 mold and found that it shot well with 12.5 grs of 4759, again about 2 MOA.  One issue with the NOE was bullet hardness, if cast hard the nose was too large to chamber easily, out of WW (NOE standard alloy) noses were .237/.238 and will chamber but can feel the nose go into the lands. Extracting a round shows a lot of engraving on the nose. May try casting some from range lead and see if a softer alloy will shrink a bit more and ease chambering.  Final decision will depend on how well they shoot.

Had a damaged Lyman 245496 mold that I milled down to plain base and with 4.5 grs Bullseye.  It was a fun load in an old Rem 788 carbine I had, although it was strictly a 50 yards or less load.  At 25yds it was basically a ragged hole for 5 shots, 50 yards closer to 3 inches.  Unfortunately when I got rid of the rifle I sold the mold, wish I had kept it now to try. 

I am not a cold weather shooter so further development will have to wait until it gets a lot warmer.  The M70 will group nicely with jacketed (when Winchester says MOA in the ads they are not kidding) so I am hoping to improve my groups when I can do more testing.

Scearcy posted this 26 February 2017

Today I tried 4227 with the Eagan bullet. Last week I shot 15 gr of 4227 and it looked like it might be stringing just a bit .  Today I tried 15.5, 16.0 and 16.5 gr. The groups got progressively worse with a number of shots entirely off of the paper. I am not sure I am going to find a sweet spot for this bullet/powder combo unless I use linotype to withstand the heavier charges.

Some time this week I am going to shoot 40 rounds loaded with the RCBS bullet and Rx7 powder. This is with the Tikka and if all goes well, I will put the Tikka away and concentrate on the new Remington barrel.

The latest bullets from the Eagan mold are none starters.  In order to get the nose large enough I had to use two layers of tape for the Beagling process. This made the gas check shank too large to be useable even with flared gas checks. Since I can't see any way to lap a nose pour mold, I may have to give up on this bullet.

I hope NOE makes a run of the MX3 243 clone they catalogue. I suppose demand is too low for 6MM molds to make it practical to keep some in stock.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 28 February 2017

I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER!  Before I put the Tikka away, I thought I would shoot 4 ten shot groups with its favorite load.  It was ugly. Too much caffeine? I had just shot a really nice group with a friends rifle minutes earlier so that didn't seem likely. Fast forward to today. I just went out to the workshop to take photos of yesterdays targets and a little bell went off. Well maybe a big bell since I can't hear the little ones any more. I put the bore scope in the Tikka and Hells Bells! it was severely leaded.  I am sure this occurred 2 days earlier when I tested the Eagan bullet / 4227 loads.  Now it makes more sense why the 16.5 gr of 4227 load all of a sudden was missing paper. I followed that session up with 50 more rounds yesterday.  7 tight - 3 out, etc. By the time I finished, the barrel was a mess.

It took a little while to get it cleaned up.  I am glad I laid in a supply of copper chore boys a month ago. 

So what is the take away? This is the second time that Eagan bullet has leaded a rifle for me.  There will not be a third opportunity. 

I think anyone reading this thread will learn more from my mistakes than my successes. Sigh

Jim

R. Dupraz posted this 28 February 2017

Feel your pain. Been there more times than I care to count! Before I arbitrarily discount a load combination any more, I have learned to go back to the basics if you will and really try to understand what that target and each shot is trying to tell me. Especially when there is a drastic change of any kind when shooting groups. High shots, low shots, ie  vertical stringing, horizontal stringing, and shape of the group to name a few. 

  Bullet fit, leading, as you have found, inconsistent bench technique, loose front rest. etc. Basic trouble shooting and not assuming anything. Not unlike when I once was trouble shooting in the telephone business.

 

Scearcy posted this 28 February 2017

Yea I have been through all of the self analysis, etc many times over the years. I just recently purchased my own bore scope.  What a revelation.  It does make me wonder about lost matches and lost seasons in years gone by.  You know the drill - seeming good rifles that just wouldn't settle down. Can be hard to correctly diagnose w/o a bore scope.

 

BTW someone in one of the current threads mentioned $20 endoscopes for examining a bore.  They would work well enough for leading. I think I recommend them to most people at that price. I opted for the Lyman to get the picture taking ablility - worth every dime.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 08 March 2017

Good Morning All

I have been on break for several days. During that time I have accumulated several items which should help in the next phase of this 243 project.  They are: a new takeoff Remington 243 barrel, a take off Remington VLS stock, a 245 Lyman sizer die, a Lee 245 push through sizer die and within a few days, a PID controller for my Lee pots. 

I never intended to get this deep into the 243s but they have become sort of an obsession.

We still have 50 mph winds (its a fact - the guys who live in SD and IA can vouch for me) so it will be a few days before I get back to the range.

I am going to put my Frankenrifle together today. If it is as ugly as I think, maybe I can post a picture. It will be a classic parts gun.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 12 March 2017

I promised a picture of the Remington with new take off barrel and non-plastic stock. 5&rdquoof snow coming today but I have ammo loaded to resume testing when it gets above 35 degrees.

 

Scearcy posted this 15 March 2017

I finally got out to the range with the new barrel. My load today was the 95 gr RCBS bullet in front of 18 gr of 4198.  It was only 27 degrees and the lube I am using is a very hard wax based lube.  There were traces of lead in the bore.  I cleaned the barrel  every 10 shots. The first shot of each subsequent string was out of the group.  Hence two of the targets below only have 4 shots and two have five.  I don't know that there are any conclusions to be drawn. Rx7 has been the best powder in the other two barrels.  I will try that next.  I am growing curious about trying a softer  lube also. It is supposed to be 10 degrees warmer tomorrow. That will be good.

Jim

John Alexander posted this 16 March 2017

Pushing pretty close to one inch with first shots out of a new barrel -- excellent.  

John

Scearcy posted this 16 March 2017

Well today didn't go so well. I took 40 rounds with 20 gr of Rx7 behind the RCBS bullet. This was the best load in the Tikka rifle. The agg for the 10 shot groups today was 2 1/2"+. So what gives? There was slight leading in the barrel and  I thought a handful of the bullet holes looked as though the bullet was tipping slightly.  Upon reflection the culprit may be that the Tikka has a 10&rdquotwist aand the Remington has a 9&rdquotwist.  According to the Lyman manual this load is yeieding a pressure in excess of 19,000 psi. I measured the hardness of my bullets and they are BHN 16. According to the Lee manual BHN 16 can stand a maximum psi of 20,000. Perhaps when one adds in the 9&rdquotwist, this load is just too close to the limit. I really can't say but it sure appeared to be too hot today.

14.5 gr of 4227 = 12,000 psi

15 gr of 4759 = 13,000 psi

18 gr of 4198 = 13,000 psi

13.5 gr of 5744 = 13,500 psi

Yesterdays load which yielded a pressure of about 13,000 psi. It worked fine. I think I will try a couple more faster powders.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 17 March 2017

Fee free to skip this post. I went to the range today despite the fact that we had 15 mph winds gusting to 25. Mostly I was bored but I justified the trip by rationalizing that I wanted to know the capability of a 243 in unfavorable conditions. Our clubs range is sandwiched between a small lake and a tall ridge. The wind was switching between 12 o'clock and 8 o'clock (9:00 is coming squarely off the lake). This basically created a mixing bowl of wind currents.  Just for fun I have attached a picture of the range. My next post will contain  the targets and load information.

Scearcy posted this 17 March 2017

Now for my load. I was using a much milder load today. 13.5 gr of 5744 behind the RCBS 95 gr bullet. This gives around 1700 fps. I also shot 2 groups with the Lyman 311496 but they were so poor I didn't even save them. You may well think I am crazy but to me these are two pretty good groups. The temp was 38 degrees and there was a slight mist falling.

So if you have ever wondered how a 243 might behave in the worst of conditions, here it is. 2 ten shot groups with an agg of 1.82".

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 March 2017

hi jim ..

just wondering if you were just holding on center and testing for wind dispersion or were you trying to outsmart the wind ....using wind flags etc . ...

if you were holding center the potential is impressive.

and i confess that you are embarrassing certain plinker-class underachiever can-poppers here .....  on a bad windy day you still shoot 10 out of 10 bean cans at 100 yards !!! ...

i wonder if i have anything that will stay under 2 inches for five shots .... stop using mystery scrap ... reject really bad castings ... try at least three loads and seating depths  ... hey bean cans at 100 yards ... that kinda hurts me ya know ...

humble ken

 

Scearcy posted this 18 March 2017

Good morning Ken,

You were up early this morning! No wind flags. No holding off. I did try to wait for the worst gusts to abate. What you can't see in the range picture is that I pulled my truck up as close behind my bench as I could. This provided a little shelter while I was shooting. The good news about a day like yesterday is that I had the range to myself. I sat in the truck to warm up between groups and the gusts were strong enough to rock the truck.

It is windy again this morning and about 23 degrees. I am going to be an optimist and load up 40 rounds with Paul Pollards load of 4227. Perhaps the wind will go down later.

I went through my notes this morning and the round count for this project is now over 500. I have about 150 rounds left in my test plan. After that I will begin very focused load development for this summers upcoming matches. At this point I am still shooting unmatched cases that have not been prepped at all. Probably 1/3 of these cases are over 20 years old. I really should anneal them one of these days and maybe go completely crazy and clean the primer pockets. I really dislike prepping cases.

Don't worry. I will quit posting when I switch over to match prep.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 18 March 2017

Question for everyone: What has been your experience with the position sensitivity of the following powders: IMR 4198, Rx7, 5744 and 4227?

 

OU812 posted this 18 March 2017

Scearcy, Why are you not shooting your beautiful Tikka 308?

I would like to send you some bumped 30 caliber bore riding bullets to try in that rifle.

Scearcy posted this 18 March 2017

OU812

The nice 308 I was shooting last year was a CZ. Someone offered me a $200 profit for it and I took it. I could never get that rifle to shoot like a 308 should. The only Tikka I own is the 243 I have been shooting this spring. Right now it is resting in the safe. It does look like it is my most accurate 243 so it will likely come back out in a month and I'll get it ready for this summers matches.

Here is how I spent my last 3 hours:

Scearcy posted this 19 March 2017

The weather turned nice and I did go to the range this afternoon. The load of the day was 15.5 gr of 4227. I have tried this load in two rifles now and neither seemed to like it. The two groups below are both 9 shot groups. The 10th shot in each was not close. Basically the field has now been narrowed to three powders and one bullet. I will finish up with this rifle over the next 10 days by shooting at least 20 rounds with each powder.

BHyett posted this 19 March 2017

Question for everyone: What has been your experience with the position sensitivity of the following powders: IMR 4198, Rx7, 5744 and 4227?

IMR 4198

  • Position sensitive: Yes
  • Tap on Bench before shot: Yes

Rx7:

  • Position sensitive: No
  • Tap on Bench before shot: No
  • Favorite smokeless powder for .45-70, shoots well from medium to very high power loads.

5744:

 

  • Position sensitive: No,
  • Tap on Bench before shot: Yes, habit

IMR 4227:

  • Position sensitive: Yes
  • Tap on Bench before shot: Yes
  • I use this powder only in straight wall cases.

I have been there when four rifles blew up, all bottler-neck cases with powders in this burning rate range. Both W-W 296 and IMR 4227 with reduced loads wrecked the bolts in two cases, expanded case heads in the other two. This may have been coincidence, but never again with a reduced load in a bottle-neck case.. 

 

Country boy from Illinois in the magical Pacific Northwest

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 March 2017

hi jim  ...

sorry that 4227 is so far not working for top results for you, but duly noted , and thanks for trying it .

on your &rdquo10th shot out &rdquo.... is that the 10 th shot fired, or just that a random one of the 10 went out ? ...     i am always trying to read barrel conditioning as one of the mysteries of these da*n cast bullets .   humans look for patterns, ya know ::  a sign of our superior intelligence .

ken

Scearcy posted this 19 March 2017

BHyett

Thank you for the thorough reply. I think I am done with 4227 for my 243s. Rx7 seems to work better in the Tikkas slower twist barrel. Anyhow I will be busy for several days now and then I will finish up with the Remington - which has pretty much been a disappointment. I dont have even 200 rounds through that barrel yet so I do need to be patient for another 50-60 rounds.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 19 March 2017

Ken

I too have been looking for patterns.  I was very careful to use Gary's break in / polishing method with this barrel before I ever put it on the rifle. The bore looks great and cleans up very easily. Clean or dirty, the first round is always out of the group.  If I clean thoroughly, the first two rounds will likely be out of the groups. Yet the barrel really doesn't like to run 20-30 rounds w/o some type of cleaning. Wet patch (ER), 4 strokes nylon brush, 2 dry patches is the current routine. Just enough to soften and breakup the fouling.

The wild shots were midstream. I have a theory but I don't want to say it in print as you guys will think I am a complete idiot.

FWIW (and this may bring on a firestorm) I am struggling a bit with this super smooth barrel. It does not seem to like being **Clean**. It does however not like being dirty either. Honestly I think it is a lube issue. I am going to try a softer lube as soon as I get around to cleaning out the lubesizer. I know, I know but I can only tell you guys what I am seeing. I must say though that that the barrel is behaving more like normal as the round count goes up - or is it as the temperature goes up? 

What a crazy game.

Jim

OU812 posted this 19 March 2017

Scearcy, You are having a bullet fit issue. Get the bullet fit correct and most of your problems will go away.

Be sure to seat  bullets inline.

Lee collet die works great, but their seating die with floating stem is poor design.

Scearcy posted this 21 March 2017

OU812

Obviously fit is important however I premised this project on the use of over the counter rifles and non-custom molds. That limits the options available to get acceptable fit. Here is where I am at:

Eagan bullet didn't fit either rifle.

The Lyman bullet is sort of a universal fits anything design but it did not do well in the faster twist Remington.

The RCBS bullet fits the Tikka very well and this is the combo I will likely use if I take one of these rifles to some matches. The RCBS just doesn't fit the Remington very well, however, and the 2&rdquogroups support that. I am going to give it one more try with a couple of the lite loads.

The NOE bullet ,which I have not used much, is 105 gr. It did not stabilize well in the Tikka.  I have not tried it in the Remington yet but it does fit quite well.  I will try it in the next week. With Rx7 this may be a 200 yard sleeper.

Eventually I will get the equipment to bump up the Eagan bullet and when I do, I am betting that it is going to run near 1 MOA with 10 shot groups. But that is for another day.

Jim

OU812 posted this 21 March 2017

I remember reading in the old Eagan catalog of their matching taper bumping dies for some of their cast bullet designs, but never for their bore riding designs. Their taper bumping die were used in the RCBS or Lyman lube-sizers. Sqeezing a bore rider in Rock Chucker press is different because you are enlarging it, not reducing or sizing down.

I am sure your sqeezed bullet will shoot better, but a little longer bore ride section will work a little better I think.

Scearcy posted this 21 March 2017

The best shooting rifle i have used with cast got an exclusive diet of of heavily bumped bullets.  I bumped them to the point of deforming the noses but by golly ( G rated version) they were all absolutely alike with perfect bases - and they shot like it. I always thought that perfect bases were as important as uniform bore riding noses were.  

Scearcy posted this 27 March 2017

As of today I am going to retire the 243 barrel on the Remington 700. Perhaps I should have known better than to buy a“new&rdquotake off on line. I'll get the Tikka back out and finish this thread.

Jim

frnkeore posted this 28 March 2017

Will you test the NOE in it, before retiring it?

 

Frank

Scearcy posted this 28 March 2017

Hi Frank 

I put 35 rounds through it today with the NOE bullet. I also put 25 more rounds through it with the RCBS bullet.  I have one sort of group with the RCBS bullet.  I believe it was 9 out of 12 into just under 2 &rdquowith all 12 going into 4+ inches. The rest of the RCBS didn't even hit the target all of the time. I then moved on to the NOE. I shot 3 - 5 shot groups and a 10 shot. The best was a 5 shot group of about 3 1/2“.  I was so discouraged I had 2 other CBA members shoot a 5 shot group apiece. The first group was about 4“.  The first 4 shots of the second group were under 2".  The 5th shot entirely missed the paper. The barrel was not leaded when I put the bore scope in it at home.

Its just too big a waste of time when the Tikka is in the gun safe.  I also have a small secret - I have a Remington 700 BDL circa 1980 that is having its bedding fixed as we speak. A while back I set out to buy a stock and wouldn't you know an action came with it.  So there is too much to try yet to keep wasting time.

Jim

frnkeore posted this 28 March 2017

Thank you for the added info, Jim..

I put a 24&rdquoRem take off barrel om my 660 carbine and it shoots well (5 shot, 5/8 - 1.5 @ 100. The 1.5's are single fliers) with 85 gr jacketed at HV.

I was hoping you find something more accurate with the Rem and cast. Thank you for all this testing.

Frank

 

 

Scearcy posted this 28 March 2017

Frank

I was really  hoping for better with the Remington also. I am completely puzzled. I may try some jacketed with it before I pull the barrel. I just put a 36X Leupold on the Tikka and am heading out to the reloading room now. I hope to shoot  30-40 rounds yet today.

The NOE is no longer than the RCBS so it should shoot in the Tikka. It could be possible that the lino/tumble lube combo was causing me some problems yesterday. I know that really doesn't make any sense but that is the poorest that rifle has performed and the conditions were nearly perfect.  ????????

Jim

Scearcy posted this 5 weeks ago

I switched back to the Tikka yesterday. The results were immediate. The frustrating part of the day was my inability to get the best out of the rifle. Anyhow I have included 1 group with 17.5 gr of IMR 4198. The second group with 4198 exhibited more vertical stringing. If I were going to pursue this powder, I would increase the load to 18 gr and pay close attention to powder position in the case.

The other two groups were shot with 14 gr of 5744. I have noted 3 shots which were called shooter issues. W/O these three shots, the other 17 were very respectable. I don't believe it is unreasonable to expect this load to be 1 moa for 5 shot groups and 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 for 10 shot groups with a little more attention to the details.

These groups were all using the RCBS bullet. I will try 1 more powder - Rx7 and then 1 test with the NOE bullet and the best powder.  We are close to the end. For the record, I will state the obvious. If your rifle isn't shooting well very quickly, forget it and move on to another rifle or barrel. This whole exercise has been a tale of two rifles.

 

Scearcy posted this 5 weeks ago

2nd picture

Scearcy posted this 5 weeks ago

BHyatt

Did you end up with a preference between sizing to 244 or 245? Crazy as it may seem, my records seem to indicate that 244 may be shooting a little more consistently for me. It might take hundreds of rounds to prove or disprove that though.

Jim

Scearcy posted this 5 weeks ago

Rx7 was the recipe du jour today. The picture has 3 groups: 2 of 7 rounds and 1 of 5. The aggregate for the 3 groups is 1.24".

Perhaps not quite as good as 5744 but certainly in the game. More recoil - it might be a serviceable 200 yd load.

Jim

frnkeore posted this 5 weeks ago

Jim,

I think those are excellent results and I think competitive in the Hunter class.

Lots more powders to test, though

 

Frank

John Alexander posted this 5 weeks ago

I always think it promising when reasonable good groups have excellent horizontal spread and the groups would be excellent if you could reduce the larger vertical.  I am always hopeful that by adjusting the charge or tweaking the bedding it might be possible to get what you need.  It doesn't always work out that way but I would rather be trying to improve vertical than work on nice round but big groups. Good luck.

John

 

Scearcy posted this 5 weeks ago

John

I know what is causing the vertical. CHEEK PRESSURE!  That Tikka is better than I am but it is not easy to shoot. I need to customize my from rest and perfect my hold.  It likes to be held firmly. Alright no comments you  yahoos.

Jim

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 5 weeks ago

hard holding reduces  bigger flyers but induces more smaller ones ... what to do .... what to do ....

kinda like if you hard hold you will get fewer out-to-8's ... but you also get fewer 10's ... PANIC !!

glad i don't compete anymore ... ha ...

ken

OU812 posted this 5 weeks ago

Try slower burning Winchester 748 powder with your linotype bullets. Lyman 47th manual list a starting load of 26.1 grains (39 grains max). Work up one grain at a time until you hit the sweet spot. Sometimes a slower ball powder will work...believe me! It must be the type powder fouling it leaves behind in barrel that makes it work.

This topic has a lot of pages...maybe start another tread using slower powders.

Scearcy posted this 5 weeks ago

OU812

Good morning. I had intended to end this thread today, actually. 

Your suggestion of ww748 comes on the same day that I dug out an old Lyman manual and decided I really should try H335 yet. I also would like to shoot another 50 rounds with the NOE bullet.  I haven't even ordered a Saeco mold yet but intend to.

Having said that I have finished what I wanted to do when I started this thread. I never intended to shoot a 243 in this years matches but now I am thinking that I likely will. I will pursue a number of refinements but most of them aren't going to interest anyone but me.

Is there enough interest in trying to take these 243s from 1 1/2 MOA to consistent match accuracy to make another thread worth it?

Jim

OU812 posted this 5 weeks ago

H335 may work. Ball powders meter like butter so no individual weighing needed...they burn cooler also.

I hope it works for you.

CFE223 (copper fouling eraser) sounds interesting also and burning rate is very close to 748

 

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 5 weeks ago

hi jim ... 

+one for a &rdquo6mm accuracy quest &rdquo thread .  kinda selfish because that is my own main interest .  theo-retically accuracy in any caliber should respond to the same techniques ..... but small bore needs more respect .... maybe develop a &rdquo6mm Dangerfield &rdquocartridge .

ken

John Alexander posted this 5 weeks ago

Jim wrote:“ I know what is causing the vertical. CHEEK PRESSURE!  That Tikka is better than I am but it is not easy to shoot. I need to customize my from rest and perfect my hold.  It likes to be held firmly. Alright no comments you  yahoos."

Jim 

=========

You are probably right. I have come to the same conclusion.  My second Tikka weighs 5.8 pounds and coupled with the round forend isn't easy to shoot. But if you can grit your teeth hard enough and be consistent -- it will -- better than most.

John

Scearcy posted this 5 weeks ago

John

Have you adjusted the triggers on your Tikkas? I have been loath to take mine out of the stock when it shoots so well. The trigger is very heavy, though.

Jim

Everyone really should spend a summer shooting in Hunter class. These little rifles teach you alot but they are a PITA.

John Alexander posted this 4 weeks ago

Jim,

I am surprised that your trigger is heavy. My first tikka came with a 3# trigger. I adjusted it per the instructions which was supposed to take it to 2#. It has been between 26 and 28 oz. since. Best factory trigger, by far, I have ever had without working on it. The second one was bought new at Sportsman's Warehouse and the trigger broke at 26 oz. out of the box. It almost always breaks just at 26oz.

You don't have to take the action out of the stock to adjust the trigger. Just remove the magazine.

Considering the accuracy, the trigger, and the Krag smooth action for under $600 I don't see how anybody else sells rifles. Well OK I would like to see a blued version in a walnut stock shaped like my M-700 CDL.

John

Wallyl posted this 4 weeks ago

I have a stock Rem 700 in the ,243 Winchester.  I use the RCBS 95 SP-GC bullet which I use my own homemade aluminum GCs and sized to .244".  I use 10.0 grains of Red Dot or 11.0 of Unique.  Velocity is 1,700 FPS and I can get 3&rdquogroups at 200 yards, with no wind.  I also shoot .223/.22-250 Remington w/cast.  The .243 Winchester is a better choice.  Most interesting to“bounce&rdquosmall targets at 200 yards with it. 

Scearcy posted this 4 weeks ago

John

I got the trigger down to a crisp 35 oz. You can't get to the adjustment screw on my model w/o removing the stock which I reluctantly did. I opted for the walnut and blue model. Here it is:

Scearcy posted this 4 weeks ago

Wally

My Remington seemed to prefer the 245 sizing. Looking through my notes, I believe that the Tikka may be slightly better at 244. I am going to try it. I was concerned about leading but I think a change of lube took care of that so the 244 should be ok.

Thanks for the input.

Jim

Wallyl posted this 4 weeks ago

I mentioned that I make my own aluminum gas check.  A few years back Hornady stopped making 6mm GCs so I bought a Freechex II GC maker...I paid $35.00,  It works superbly well but does take a bit of time. 

Very interesting to pop cans and other targets at 200~225 yards with the .243 w/cast bullets. I really liked Unique powder with it but it turns out that Red Dot is even better.  I had to switch as I had trouble finding any Unique powder. After shooting the barrel remains very clean.  As I had trouble getting std LR primers, I even used Std Lg Pistol primers, with no problem whatsoever.  However I do use Std LR primers when I can get them.  I shot on a farm with a 1/4 mile range in Central Wisconsin. I have also experimented w/ .22 Cal CF cast loads.  None are in the same league as with the .243. 

 

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Scearcy posted this 2 weeks ago

18 gr of H335. I am surprised but this warrants a few more groups.

OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

In my 223 the 748 Ball powder is very accurate for the first 5-6 shots, but after that groups open to 3"- 4" . I think more lube grooves and lube are needed to keep powder fouling softer.

I hope ball powder works for you.

Scearcy posted this 2 weeks ago

You know my second group was larger. I wasn't sure why - could have been a number of things. I'll watch that fouling.

Scearcy posted this 2 weeks ago

H335 again - 9 shots - light wind. This is a rather strange target. I was alternating groups with another rifle or I may have thought I had had too much coffee. You'll need to draw your own conclusions, I guess.

 

OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

 

  • Lyman reloading manual shows a minimum load of 25 grains...why are you using smaller 18 grains.

Have you tried filling lube grooves with lube (soft LBT) or are you using 45/45/10 tumble lube. Maybe the traditional filling of lube grooves will work better at keeping fouling soft? 

I do not know.

Scearcy posted this 2 weeks ago

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - 4th Edition

H335; 95 grain cast bullet

Minimum = 16.0 grains; 1619 fps

Maximum = 25.5 grains; 2339 fps

OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - 4th Edition

H335; 95 grain cast bullet

Minimum = 16.0 grains; 1619 fps

Maximum = 25.5 grains; 2339 fps

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK your 4th edition sounds more logical. My 3rd edition reads way different.

 

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition

H335 90 gr. cast bullet

Minimum = 25.0 grains 2128 fps, 20,200 CUP

Maximum = 36.3 grains 2790 fps, 47,300 CUP

OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

OK your 4th edition sounds more logical. My 3rd edition reads way different.

 

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition

H335 90 gr. cast bullet, 243 Winchester

Minimum = 25.0 grains 2128 fps, 20,200 CUP

Maximum = 36.3 grains 2790 fps, 47,300 CUP

Close