6.5 Creedmor

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  • Last Post 09 March 2018
nosee posted this 04 March 2018

Is anyone shooting cast lead bullets, In a 6.5 Creedmor? I have one to try,all I can find is 6.5 x55mm Swedish Mauser load data. I have Lyman #266469 mold, sized .264, GC,load data is start 15gr.IMR 4198. Any help please. Thank You---Nosee

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 March 2018

the 6.5 creedmore is significantly smaller capacity than the 6.5 swede ... plus i would guess the throat is shorter and tighter .... both would cause higher pressures than the swede with identical charges ... so reasonable extrapolation would say to reduce swede charges by 10 per cent for medium pressure loads and reduce even more for high pressure loads .

15 gr. 4198 would be in low medium pressure so sounds like a decent place to start .  i would load a couple at a time and check for clean burning as you go, my guess is that 4198 might not burn clean at this load, especially if you use the small primer pocket brass .

the 6.5 creedmore sounds like a nice cartridge for cast; we don't hear much about accuracy with the 264 tubes ....  keep us informed with your adventures.

ken

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45 2.1 posted this 04 March 2018

The 6.5 CM has a case capacity of 52.5 gr. of water. A contemporary case with load data for your bullet is the 6.5 Jap with a capacity of 48 gr of water. Data for your bullet is : start - 22 gr at 1,893 to max of 26.0 gr at 2159 for the 6.5 Jap out of the 44th edition Lyman manual.

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MFSTEAKLEY posted this 08 March 2018

I am new to the CBA and the forum but i would like to share some information I have found.  I am shooting cast 6.5 bullets.  I have a 6.5 Creedmoor Ruger Precision rifle.  My bullet mold is a Noe 268-140 and I found a load that a fellow shooter used for that bullet of 16 gr of 2400.  However, I wish to use a different powder and some research found that the case capacity is very close to the 260 Remington.  Using a theory from the Richard Lee book, "Modern Reloading" and data from the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" for the 260 Remington I decided on a load of 24 gr of IMR-4895.  It chronographed at 1900 fps.

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nosee posted this 08 March 2018

That must be a gas check bullet,at that speed. How are the groups at a 100, 5= 1in. or less? The lyman bullets I,am trying are long and the base of bullet is past the neck.337. I read where that is unsafe with a gascheck. So have benn shooting Gc bullet with no Gc,my groups are real bad. However bullets coated with Hi-Tek & lee alox, show no erosion in sandtrap.Will try different powder,thought of shortening bullet on milling machine, to neck length and using a wad under pb? Please keep us informed on your 6.5 shooting.Thank You--Nosee

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John Alexander posted this 08 March 2018

Nosee,

I don't believe there are any test results to back up the worry that gas checks shouldn't extend into the powder space.  I believe is it just a worry thought up by somebody who didn't understand the nature of gas pressure.  I and others have done this with no bad results that I have heard of.

If anybody has first hand experience (not just having heard of this probably false concern) that shows otherwise please speak up.

John

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R. Dupraz posted this 08 March 2018

Well John, I reckon it may have something to do with how much of the GC'd cast bullet intrudes into the powder space. Just the GC or more than that. Because of the short neck, I have loaded and fired many many cast rounds in my old Mauser 7.62x51 / 308 in the military matches and practice where just the Check was below the neck. Shoots well that way too.

But don't know if I would want much lead exposed in the powder chamber an run the risk of the bullet bottom part being abraded or worse by the powder gases. Don't have any idea of the effect of say a half a bullet protruding below the neck though. Don't think that I would be very comfortable with that.   

This topic came up several hears ago here and Ed Harris commented on some of the consequences of deep seating cast bullets as I recall. This feeble mind thinks it remembers what Ed said but don't clearly recollect so won't go any further than that. Maybe Ed will see fit to join in  again.  

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John Alexander posted this 09 March 2018

RD,

Good point. I can easily agree with you that it seems that it might be a problem to have the sides of a lead bullet hanging down into the case body. And there may be situations when it may be a problem But trying decide such things about what exactly happens when the primer pops is pretty much a waste of time unless we can get some experimental result to back up our thinking.  As noted I and others have broken the "rule" without bad consequences.  There may be situations (maybe very high velocity loads) where bad things happen.  I just can't remember hearing of any.

Cast Bullet lore is full of "rules" to do or not to do this or that arrived at by half vast logic and many have been shown to be pure BS time and again. The usual reason they don't amount to a fart in a whirlwind isn't lack of good logic but being based on a bad assumption or two along the way.

This shouldn't be  matter of  believing or not believing. If someone has caused trouble for himself trouble by seating cast bullets in the powder space, let's hear it with all the details.  Maybe if this is harmful we can figure out under what conditions to look out for.

Just believing it may cause trouble shouldn't be good enough to advise other people.

John

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R. Dupraz posted this 09 March 2018

"Just believing it may cause trouble shouldn't be good enough to advise other people."

Yup.

Works both ways

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Hornet posted this 09 March 2018

  I had a batch of .223 Rem loads that were accidentally loaded way too short so that the RCBS 22-055-FN was far enough down to put the entire gas check into the powder space. It might not have mattered but these were older castings that had the old Lyman slip-on gas checks as a test. Fired the first 5 shot group, picked up the empties, and had a gas check fall out of one of the cases. I ran the rest of the batch checking the barrel after every shot for blockage.

I have run some 6.5x.257 Roberts with the gas check well into the powder space but used crimp-on gas checks and a wad of dacron to help make sure the checks were carried out of the case. Never had a problem with them.

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nosee posted this 09 March 2018

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nosee posted this 09 March 2018

i shortened some 140gr. Lyman .266,to fit 6.5 case neck. Down from 1.117 to .825, wt. change 140gr. to 100gr. If these are accurate will have to mill mould face down, milling each bullet would take forever. Will powder coat & shoot with base wad.--Nosee

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45 2.1 posted this 09 March 2018

There are two basic set ups with 6.5 rifles...... military with big long throats (typical of the 266469 design) and commercial (much tighter short throat typical of the Saeco bullet). Make a lead impact slug in your 6.5 CM, it should be a short tight throat. That Saeco bullet usually shoots quite well in them.

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joeb33050 posted this 09 March 2018

Nosee,

I don't believe there are any test results to back up the worry that gas checks shouldn't extend into the powder space.  I believe is it just a worry thought up by somebody who didn't understand the nature of gas pressure.  I and others have done this with no bad results that I have heard of.

If anybody has first hand experience (not just having heard of this probably false concern) that shows otherwise please speak up.

John

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joeb33050 posted this 09 March 2018

 

7.13 DEEP SEATED BULLETS AND ACCURACY

 

 

 

            I have read many data-free reports that seating the bullet base and/or gas check below the case neck will cause poor accuracy. Obturation is mentioned.

 

            This seems not to be true in my Savage Striker 308 Win pistol, that will reliably average under 2” 5 shot 100 yard sets of five groups, with the base of the 314299 bullet seated below the neck of the cartridge case. This with 2-6X Simmons scope.

 

 

 

For instance, 1/27/10 (Ignore all the rightmost zeroes.)

 

15/A#9:   1.100”, 1.575”,   .625”, 1.250”, 1.875”,    AVG. 1.285”

 

16/A#9:   1.525”, 1.300”, 1.625”, 1.450”, 1.825”,    AVG. 1.545”

 


            Last fall I bought a rifle that allowed testing accuracy with the bullet base seated below and then above the case neck.

 

            This Savage M10 308 Win rifle required the 314299 base/gas check seated so that less than 1/32" of the top band is out of the mouth and the GC is well below the case neck.
            October 20, 2009 was my first time shooting this rifle. The Choate stock is a nightmare from the bench; the corrugations in the bottom of the stock make shooting from bags quite difficult.

 

            Between adjusting the 6-24X BSA scope for focus and parallax and working out how to handle the stock and getting sighted in, I only shot 4 groups with the lightest load.

 

314299 @ .3095", bottom groove lubed only with Lyman Super Moly

 

OAL of 2.786". 

 

            These require some pushing on the bolt handle to get in the chamber.
            All groups shown are 5-shot at 100 yards.

 

10-20-09, Remington 2.5 primers
19/IMR4227:  2.375”, 1.575”, 2.150”, 1.150”;              Avg. 1.812"
20/IMR4227:  1.600”, 1.500”, 1.875”, 1.100”, 1.375”; Avg. 1.490"
21/IMR4227  :2.225”, 1.900”, 1.150”, 1.850”, 1.050”; Avg. 1.635"

 

 10-27-09, WLP primers
20/IMR4227: 1.325”, 0.900”, 2.275”, 2.000”, 0.975”,  AVG: 1.495"
           

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/5/09 I took the barrel off the Savage M10 and sent it to Pat Iffland, who reamed the throat and sent the barrel back. The throat is .310 x 1 1/2 degree included cut to my dummy cartridge

 

            This re-throating allowed seating bullets further out so that the gas check was well up in the case neck.

 

            The BSA scope was replaced with a much better Barska 6-24X scope, and the bottom of the stock was taped up.  I also had to get and find a way to mount a wider front bag on the rest. This gun is still difficult to shoot from bench rest.

 

 

 

            On the left is a cartridge with the bullet seated for the Savage Striker and the M10 before throating. Note that the gas check and part of the bullet are below the case neck.

 

            Center is the 314299 bullet sized .309” with Lyman Moly lube.

 

            Right is a cartridge seated for the throated M10 barrel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Results after throating.

 

314299 @ .3095", bottom groove lubed only with Lyman Super Moly

 

OAL of 2.925". 

 

 

 

1/15/10, WLP primers

 

19/IMR4227:  1.825”, 1”,    1.675”, 2.450”; 2.000”,     AVG:. 1.812"

 

1/20/10, WLP primers

 

19/IMR4227:  1.300”, 1.350”,  1.525”, 1.500”, 1.000”, AVG: 1.335"
20/IMR4227:    .950”, 1.100”,  1.100”, 1.025”,   .900”, AVG: 1.015"
21/IMR4227:    .475”,   .725”,    .850”, 1.025”, 1.400”, AVG:   .895"

 

            The Striker pistol shoots reasonably well with the gas check below the case neck.

 

            The Savage M10 rifle shot reasonably well also with the gas check below the case neck. .

 

            After re-throating, the Savage M10 shoots better than before.

 

            The change in primers had no effect; I’ve been trying to test for difference in accuracy between Remington 2.5 LP primers and others with many guns chambered for many cartridges over many years, without success.

 

            The change in scope, taped stock, front rest, throating and moving the gas check up into the case neck together accompany the reduction of group size.   

 

            Do deep seated bullets affect accuracy? Maybe, but if so, in my opinion, not much.

 

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