smokeless powder and cast bullets in the 45-70?

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  • Last Post 16 February 2013
2frogs posted this 12 April 2012

Never expermited much with smokeless in the 45-70...What bullet hardness should one be using? Will soft bullets be better than the hard alloy ones?

Don't want to risk leading the barrel if I can help it..Thanks for any advice you have to offer...John

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6pt-sika posted this 12 April 2012

I use plain old water quenched wheelweights !

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joeb33050 posted this 13 April 2012

45-70 People have been shooting 12-14 grains of Unique with bullets from 300 (457191) to 500 (457125) grains made out of about anything that will melt, for ~75 years. Some use TP or Dacron or kapok or cotton or ?? very small/light wads atop the powder. (I use Dacron.) Others warn of “ringed” chambers with wads. Loudly. The bullet must be bigger than the groove diameter to stop leading. 10 shot 200 yard groups <4” are pretty easily attained. The 45-70 will beat you up from the bench. joe b.

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frnkeore posted this 13 April 2012

I have to agree with Joe but will add that softer bullet are all thats needed, especially if the bullet is the same size as the groove. You really need .001 -.003 larger than groove to be sure of preventing leading.

I've gotten my best accuracy with 10 gr of Unique, a friend get his best at 12 gr in his trap door. Both with 410 - 450 gr bullets.

I'm one of the people that has “rung” a chamber with a wad, not in 45/70 but in 30/40 Krag.

Frank

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2frogs posted this 13 April 2012

where did you ever find loads like that for Unique?

I used 5744 with fair results for plinking off the bench with no ill effects..I need a light load for 535 grain bullets..needs to be accurate out to 250 yards for targets shooting..My plan is to shoot with the high power guys and use my sharps with appeture sights while they use scopes...lol

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grouch posted this 14 April 2012

I use Saeco's 425gr spire point bullet with 25gr of 2400. It shot well when I tried it at 250yds and I've used it several times at 200 with good results. Its done well with aperature sights against our local high powered rifle shooters with scoped rifles. Grouch

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2frogs posted this 14 April 2012

COOL MAN

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Dale53 posted this 06 May 2012

One of the absolute best powders for 45/70 (in all three strength level rifles - 1873 Trapdoor, modern Marlin lever action or 1886 Winchester, or finally, the #1 and #3 Ruger single shots) is RL7. It fills the case to the point that no filler is necessary and I get 1.5” accuracy at 100 yards out of my Marlin with a Lee 340 cast bullet. Check the Lyman reloading manual for full loading information with RL-7.

I also have a #3 Ruger.

One of the best deer hunting bullets is the Gould hollow point bullet.

An alternate but excellent load is a duplex load with a priming charge of RL-7 (10% by weight of RL-7) and 90% of Swiss black powder either 2f or 3F. I use a compress duplex load and it requires NO filler (of course) and shoots quite well and you can literally shoot all day without cleaning.

You can also use the original powder for a totally different but excellent experience. The 45/70 is the quintessential black powder cartridge rifle.

Dale53

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onondaga posted this 06 May 2012

2frogs:

Hodgdon 4198 has a nearly identical burn rate compared to the much more expensive AA5744. of course the 5744 is much less position sensitive  than H4198 but either is excellent in the 47-70. I personally prefer H4895 with a slower burn rate and a gentler pressure curve that cast bullets like better for accuracy.

Hunting with the 45-70, the first choice of alloy has been Lyman #2 for over a hundred years and for good reason. Lyman #2 should be reliably expected to expand double in diameter and retain 100% weight with loads striking game with 1000 foot pounds or more. That is not difficult for the 45-70 at all.

A free online ballistic chart program will tell you your foot pounds at any range when you enter your variables and click calculate:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html>http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

Alloy has little to no effect on leading of barrels when bullet fit is correct. Start by getting a bullet size of .002 - .004” larger than your slugged barrel groove to groove diameter and you will have no leading unless your bore is in poor condition with roughness or pitting and rust. Loads with pressures beyond moderation will breakdown any alloy and allow gas jetting with accuracy loss. Don't exceed your bullet strength in foot pounds of ultimate alloy strength with foot pounds of load pressure for plain based bullets. Gas checked bullets will extend useful load range of bullet alloys somewhat. That is explained ad nausium in the Lee 2nd edition loading manual. It is not rocket science.

I use a .460” bullet in my .458 Win Mag that slugs .457” G to G and shoot it at 1700 fps. This is a 350 gr. gas checked bullet from a RanchDog mold and delivers just over 1000 foot pounds at  200 yards. You can tailor your load to deliver 1000 foot pounds at your longest expected hunting range. getting that velocity and energy with a modern 45-70 is an easy task and most hunters use lighter loads anyway to get that 1000 foot pounds at 100 yards instead or 200 like I do. I do hunt bear with my load and prefer the higher energy while the recoil is very acceptable in my 10 pound rifle at that  load level.

It is NOT rocket science again! Lyman determined over 100 years ago that bullets softer than BHN 15 ( Lyman #2 ) have disadvantages like easy damage from pocket carry and even over expansion splattering and weight loss on impact with game at 1000 foot pounds. Bullets harder than BHN 15 expand less than 100% with 1000 foot pounds delivered to game and if the bullets are very hard with higher than 5% antimony they can easily fragment on impact with game at 1000 foot pounds. Like I said this is not “new news",  it is over 100 years old and has a very  dependable source and history in America.

Driven at appropriate velocity and energy levels, Lyman #2 alloy works marvelously on any animals from field mice to enormous Gray Whales.

Gary

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Ed Harris posted this 06 May 2012

When I was at Ruger they had a collection of 40 or 50 pulled-off .45-70 barrels with ringed chambers which had been sectioned. Customer complaint was usually “hard extraction” and nobody would admit to having used handloads, but upon examination the apparent cause was obvious.

Some barrels had multiple rings corresponding in location to the bullet bases in various weight bullets.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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6pt-sika posted this 07 May 2012

I suggest you do as you see fit .

Now here's what I've done over the past dozen or so years in this application .

My first try with the 45-70 was a MArlin 1895CB with the 26” ballard rifled barrel . And I used the Lee 457-340 PB and the Lee 457-405PB with pretty decent results pushing them with SR4759 . After awhile I went to the Lyman 330 grain Gould HP PB bullet again pushed with SR4759 . In all three cases I used aircooled wheelweight alloy NOTHING added . The Gould bullet pushed with SR4759 in the 1895CB I had was a deer killer PERIOD .

After that I went to XMP5744 because as someone already mentioned it was less position sensitive then SR4759 . But by then I had also moved on the the two Ranch Dog gas check bullets . With the Ranch Dog 460-350GC and a good load of XMP5744 I knocked over the best racked whitetail I've taken in 40+ years of hunting . The shot was about 60 yards and again I was using aircooled wheelweights in a circa 1978 Marlin 1895 with Micro Groove rifling . Later that same year I used the Ranch Dog 460-425GC in a Marlin 1895G with ballard rifling and air cooled again . Hit a spike at about 12 yards and hammered him straight to the ground , of course I was about 30 feet above him sitting in a climbimg treestand .

When I started using H322 in the 45-70 loads I needed to water quench to get the bullets to stop stripping in the Micro Groove barrel . My present circa 1972 Marlin 1895 is one of the first from that year and isn't Micro Groove but I decided to keep water quenching anyway .

At the moment I am using H322 with all three of the Ranch Dog 45 cal bullets as well as the BRP 462-465GC and the BallistiCast 462-550GC and they all shoot well enough at 100 yards for deer hunting .

I'm however in the midst of possibly changing over with the Ranch Dog 460-300GC to shooting VV N-120 powder . This stuff showed some pretty good results the last time I was at the range and it doesn't seem to be loosing anything velocity wise to the H322 load I've been shooting for a couple months .

 

Oh yeah I almost forgot !

I have an original 1884 Trapdoor that someone saw fit to cut down and try to make an artillery model out of . Gun still has original case coloring on the lock hammer etc . Anyway I shoot the Lyman 388 grain RN PB bullet in that one with SR4759 at maybe barely sonic velocity . Gun shoots okay at 50 yards using the original sights . While some folks like BP I ain't exactly one of them except in my old original 1840's half stock Pennsylvania “A.B.Smith” percussion rifle . Closed action cartridge guns ain't no place for BP if I own them .

 

Dale53 , on a side note I finally got my “System Grothe” 8.15x46R schuetzen rifle going !

If you happen to come to Brushy Mountain Gun Club to shoot in the Chinkapin Shoot let me know I'll try and drive down to finally meet you . I assume your buddy is going to hold them again this year .

 

 

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EDG posted this 18 December 2012

Lyman has had Unique data for the 45-70 in the Lyman manual and in the Cast Bullet Handbook for at least 50 years.  I have used a lot of it without ringing a chamber. However I never used a filler of any sort. I eventually switched to SR4759 for better accuracy. The SR4759 fills the case better in the larger charges required.

2frogs wrote: where did you ever find loads like that for Unique?

I used 5744 with fair results for plinking off the bench with no ill effects..I need a light load for 535 grain bullets..needs to be accurate out to 250 yards for targets shooting..My plan is to shoot with the high power guys and use my sharps with appeture sights while they use scopes...lol

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Big Iron posted this 15 February 2013

I have been using wheelweights with Lee liquid lube.  The powder is IMR-3031 @ 34.0 grains which is a starting load with a Lee 340 gr. bullet.  The recoil is mild and it shoots well in both my Trapdoor and Winchester (Repro) 1886.  I also use corn meal to keep the powder back by the primer.  No wads.

I have shot a lot of these.

BI

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Harp posted this 16 February 2013

I have had much better accuracy with 4759 and it burns completly. I have used 1-20 or 1-30, but now believe lyman #2 is best all around. The bullet fit to barrel is critical I think so I will begal my moulds to .460 and polish my bore. Been frustrating to get good accuracy then lose it and have to lead mine the bore. Bullet fit is the cure to my last obsticle in this cal I think.

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Lefty posted this 16 February 2013

I have used 4759, 5744 and 4198 in my 45-70s. I have also used Unique occasionally. I find Unique useful for lite loads but I have a good friend who shoots nothing but Unique in his 45-70. I find myself shooting mostly 4759 these days although I still like long kernel 4198 when I am putting together a hotter load.

The local gun emporium has two Ruger #3s in stock. One is quite nice but not cheap. I am thinking this gun might be fun with a RB load.

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EDG posted this 16 February 2013

Harp, I get excellent accuracy with a 510 gr bullet that casts .461-.462 out of WW This is a plain base bullet and it does not lead however my velocity is only about 1100FPS using 4759.

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