A BPCR Postal?

CBA Member

nimrod posted this 23 January 2013

I might be interested I also have a couple of guys that are going to shoot with us during the CBA matches that we run at Pioneer, they also shoot a lot of BPCR so that might just be right down their alley. I would choose a reduced turkey target myself as it's a tough target at it's normal range just scale it down to be appropriate at 200 yards.

The 25 ring target would make for a good one if you want to shoot at a bull. There is also some people shooting at the TQ4 of the Western Schuetzen forums they are also allowing muzzleloaders but probably using rests and more time. This is at 200 yards too and I think that it is a monthly shoot just turn in scores bragging rights only.

Just suggestions.

Richard

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PETE posted this 23 January 2013

Tom,

Sounds interesting.

By 3/4 inch scope do you me the distance overall or just the main tube excluding the two ends like Unertl's .

12 minutes would mean you'd have to work up a load that would shoot “dirty".

You might be cutting out a lot of shooters with only access to a 100 yd. range. 200 yds. would make it more interesting tho.

Only thing I would ask is not to have the target turn in date to early. I've got a Win. High Wall in 38/55 but would have to do all the load work-up for it. Only shot breech seated with it.

Pete

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 23 January 2013

Hi Pete,

yes it would be dirty but you'd be surprised how much time you'll have between shots to either use a blow tube or wipe. I shot a registered match in Bismarck last summer, the first time I attempted this under the 12-minute time constraint, and never ran out of time. I think the chickens were the one stage where I used the most time, probably because those are shot offhand.

The CBA currently has a single shot Postal that is due 15 Sept. so having the closing date later in the summer would work OK.

Not so sure on the 200-yard only thing. We do have a 200-yd. Military BR and 200-yard Combined Postal that seems to be well attended.

Tom

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CBA Member

nimrod posted this 23 January 2013

Would you allow a spotter-coach like the NRA? One wind flag at the shooters position and one posted on each end of the target line? Just like BPCR. I'm all for eliminating the spotter guys thats one of the main reasons for me to quit the BPCR, I hate having to listen to someone that doesn't have a clue about what he is talking about. It really would make a difference for me no spotters and I'm in. Spotters and I'm out!

An that's my story and I'm stick'in to it!

Richard

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Moderator

R Dupraz posted this 23 January 2013

Oh h**l Tom, any one can hit a poor chicken at 200 yds from the prone over sticks. Sides, after ten hits with a .45, there would be nothing left but feathers. Be pretty tough to score.

If chickens, what about two with five shots in each?

Or

What about the standard bullseye score military match targets, five shots at 100 and five at 200. with corresponding time limits

Or

Two score targets at 100, five shots each. Then the guys with only a 100 yd range could join in. time limits- same as above.

Iron sight and scope in same class or no?

Or----

Yea, I'd be interested

R. Dupraz

:D:D

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CBA Member

.22-10-45 posted this 23 January 2013

Hello, Tom. Sounds like alot of fun! And I would surely love to use my Remington Mid-Range .40 2 1/2". But the only problem is... I only have access to 100yds in my area! Any possibility of using a reduced for 100yd. range target? I have made up 1/10 scale targets of the old Creedmoor 1000 yd. long-range match targets for .22 rimfire use at 100yds..and that tiny bull looks like a pencil dot!

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Standard Member

PETE posted this 23 January 2013

Tom,

I don't have a quarrel at all with the time or distance. After all I did manage to shoot 25 rds in my 50/90SS without cleaning in 6 1/2 min. at the NCOWS nationals a while back. Hit 25 out of 25 targets set at unknown distances from 75 to 350 yds.

But as I pointed out not to many that would be interested have access to a 200 yd. range. That's my understanding of why the CBA Postals are shot a at 100 so the maximum number of people can shoot them.

You missed my asking about that 3/4” scope idea. A straight 3/4” scope the full length can be gotten. MVA (I think) sells one but were pretty pricey when I bought mine and they are only 6x, or were when I got mine. I'm assuming you mean the main tube will be 3/4” but the “bells” on each end can be whatever like Unertl's and such.

Whichever way you want to go I can play. Just need to know which way that is before saying I'll give it a try.

Pete

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Standard Member

Michael K posted this 23 January 2013

Sounds good. 12 mins, should not be a problem. In a standard NRA BPCR silhouette match shooters are given 7 minutes for their first set/bank of 5 animals. This includes their sighters and 5 shots for score. 5 mins is given for the second set/bank of 5 animals with 5 shots for score. 12 mins all run together produces the same end result.

Shooting dirty.. I use a blow tube, others patch between shots. I feel life is too short to deal with adding more more motions during a match. Shoot, blow, reload, repeat.

Michael.

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CBA Member

mike morrison posted this 24 January 2013

never shot a postal. I would give this a go. m

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 24 January 2013

This is cut and pasted from the NRA rules regarding scopes: No length or power limitation on the scope. Scope tube
body to be 3/4” or less in diameter and any ocular or
objective lenses, adjusting or assembly rings to be less than 1” in diameter.

(c) No Internal scope adjustments for windage or elevation.

(d) Mounts are to be of the traditional style of the period, and contain the windage and elevation adjustments for the scope in either, or both, the front or rear mounts. No click adjustments in the mount. Either dove tail mounting or scope block mounting is allowed.

Original scope mounts of either the Cataract or Malcom style or variations thereof, or replicas or derivatives of either style, are allowed provided the replica or derivative conforms to the criteria of paragraph (d) above.

No spotters. The beauty of the Postal is you can get off on your own for some “quiet” time. Of course you can have a spotting scope on the ground next to you while shooting. But FWIW, many IHMSA spotters use a laser pointer aimed at a spotting board next to the shooter to indicate hit placement and there is no verbal stuff.

To keep this “silhouette” based, the target will be the shape of one of the traditional silhouette animals.

Separate scope and iron sight categories.

I'm giving the (2) targets idea some thought. While some of us might turn in an unscoreable target due to our terrific eyesight, that might not be the case for most.

Forgot about the NRA wind flag rule...yep, you can have (1) right next to you on the firing line. If the club has large “community” always-in-place flags down range, they can stay.

Distance...I still favor the 200-yard outlook but we'll see how many respond saying they can only get onto a 100-yard range. See my second post above about the CBA already having 200-yard only events. So what should we do with the guys that can only get onto a 50-yard range? HA!

Having fun!

Tom

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CBA Member

nimrod posted this 24 January 2013

Allrighty! I'm liking it I still think that a reduced trukey would the way to go maybe have a paper chicken for some offhand shooting. Everybody meeds some offhand practice.

Richard

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CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 24 January 2013

Yes, I'd be interested enough to give it a go, if I had a gun that qualifies. Closest thing I have is a H&R 45-70 single shot. Fly, no fly? Seems I remember reading something about the H&R 45-70 replicating a Wesson & Harrington original. I'd love to have a nice buffalo gun but may not get one this year. I'm sure there's a lot of H&Rs out there. If this is contrary to the spirit of the match I'm fine with that, no problem. If the H&R is a go I'm in.

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Tom Acheson posted this 24 January 2013

I can't say about an H&R. Here is the balance of the NRA gun rule commentary: Stevens Tip-up, Stevens No. 44, Wesson Falling Block, Wesson (hinged barrel), Whitney Phoenix, Whitney Rolling Block, Winchester 1885, and Wurfflein. While the following single shot actions may not conform to the exact criteria of Rule 3.4, they are allowed because they conform to the spirit of the competition in form and function, provided the firearms conform to all other configurations of Rule 3.4: Browning Model 1878, Browning Model 1885, C. Sharps '75, Falling Block Works, Stevens 44 1/2 and Wickliff '76. Replicas other than exact reproductions of pre-1896 Black Powder actions as described above and shooting equipment as described herein, must be passed by the Silhouette Committee with the advice of the Black Powder Committee. It shall be the competitor's responsibility to provide any documentation which may be required to establish that all Black Powder Cartridge Rifle equipment conforms to these rules.

FWIW

Tom

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Standard Member

PETE posted this 24 January 2013

Tom,

This is getting tougher all the time.

I think the big hang-up for most will be the scope requirement. Not the diam. but the mounts. I've got a Win. and Fecker that meet the diam. requirement but they have click adjustable Unertl mounts.

So guess it's the MVA and Win. High Wall for me.

You going to post the rules in concrete so guys know what they need to do?

Pete

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CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 24 January 2013

OK. I'll see what happens. I'm seriously considering selling my EBR (which I don't use)to finance a BPCR. It seems every year I go shopping for a new rifle to shoot in a CBA postal match. I can hardly bear the strain. Currently looking at Lyman Chiappa mini Sharps in 38-55. 6 pounds! Could be a good backwoods loafer's gun, but so far after searching the web the bore/groove dimensions seem to be a state secret, just “Lyman specified". Anyway, this match idea sounds like a winner to me. One way or another I'm in.

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Tom Acheson posted this 24 January 2013

Right now I'm on a fishing expedition....trying to evaluate the interest. But yes, once the excitement dies down, there will be fixed” rules.

Stay tuned...

Tom

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CBA Member

nimrod posted this 24 January 2013

Since we are still on a fishing expedition I think that a lot of the NRA rules are somewhat “UPPITY” too restrictive or what have you. I do think that the blackpowder cartridge case should be strictly enforced. I never did understand why only Pyrodex would be allowed while none of the other artifical powders could be used? Politics somewhere or money. Stick to blackpowder..... As for actions there were a lot of actions in use during that time that the NRA will not allow. To my thinking and to allow more people to enjoy the sport allow the tip up actions, the striker type actions as long as they are in the spirit of the match using two piece wood stocks in the Hunting configuration, NO TARGET STOCKS. And keep the traditional style sights and scopes, no click adjustments.

MY thoughts anyway.

Richard

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MKastning posted this 24 January 2013

Tom tossed me a note to look into this, and I have to say there is a lot mroe interest on this thread than I thought there would be! I should spend more time on the forum, for sure!

The BPCR game is way different than anything that I shoot, but I would be happy to run this through as a trial match this year, complete with the match results posted in The Fouling Shot.

Let's keep discussing the ideas for the “rules” and give it a shot. I “think” I am now just about organized enough to be dangerous in this Postal position, and ready to take on more matches.

Mike

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Michael K posted this 25 January 2013

While the issue of what is allowed or not as been raised, let us keep in mind the spirit of NRA BPCR rules. At risk of getting on a soap box, when I first started shooting IHMSA pistol silhouette back in the early 80's 3 of the 4 catagories were geared around the production gun, straight from the box, factory sights, 4lbs max, 10” barrel max, nothing after market, except for readily avialable cataloged grips and a safe trigger job. As the years passed the true production gun gradually became less and less production. The continual postituting of the rules was one of the reasons for leaving the sport, selling off my pistols and getting into BPCR.
The NRA rules are intended to keep things in the spirit of shooting the traditional BPCR. How many people would want to go to a square dance and see someone show up wearing spandex track suit?

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GWarden posted this 25 January 2013

I like the idea of the postal match, but why not make it more inclusive to get more shooters; rather than being exclusive to eliminate shooters. On the WSU forum there has been a BP slug gun/ postal match. It is shot at 200 and 100 yds from the bench. Was no wt limit and any sight. You can go to the WSU and find the rules. Don' t we want to get as many shooters as possible. I shot in this on two different years, it definitely gets one to find out the potential of their rifle. Why not include muzzle loading round ball at 50 and or 100yds. There are lots of those BP muzzle loading bench guns out there, include them in a match. Lots of possibilities for lots of BP shooters. Bob Iowa

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nimrod posted this 25 January 2013

If I remember correctly muzzleloading rifles are allowed in BPCR events as long as they make the weight. But it's the time limit that really handicaps a front stuffer I think that a few people tried it way back but just not enough time to load, get into position fire and then get up and load again and repeat 10 or more times is 12 minutes.

If this comes about I thought that I would also shoot the WSU event at the same time just turn that target in to a different organization.

I really hope that this comes about and if it does I'm planning on adding it to our monthly shoot. Probably shoot the CBA benchrest and military first and then bring out the blackpowder guns and go another round. I've already sent out some feelers just to see what a response this would bring.

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 25 January 2013

Black and Blue nailed it. This isn't a free-for-all. Either a shooter is interested or isn't. I started in IHMSA in 1979 and saw the de-evolution B&B noted. Rules changed and the spirit of intent on a true “production” gun vanished. It along with way too many categories has radically impacted interest and participation. We'll start with a core program and see what happens.

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MKastning posted this 25 January 2013

I know little about the black powder rifles, but is it possible to include everyone and have a class for the raceguns? That term sounds a little funny thinking of a black powder rifle.

Forgive me.:)

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nimrod posted this 25 January 2013

Racegun???? Back in the day I would guess that a lever action was probably considered a race gun. And then there was the Gatlin gun I would guess that pretty racy for its day.

You need to get yourself one of these BPCR guns a can or two of Blackpowder (The mother of all powders) and expand your knowledge a bit.:D

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 25 January 2013

Mike,

The use of the C in BPCR is used to distinguish the rifle types as using fixed ammunition in cartridge cases, from traditional black powder rifles.

The NRA held a trial match at the Whittington Center (Raton, NM) in 1985, with 34 shooters. They did it again in 1986 and then in 1987 it was made an official event and had 71 shooters. In the mid 90's the Whittington range was expanded from 40 positions to 64 firing points. They shoot the chickens offhand at 200-meters, then use cross sticks for shooting at the pigs at 300-meters, the turkeys at 385-meters and the rams at 500-meters. The National Championship is held at Whittington every July.

When the movie Quigley Down Under came out in 1990, interest in the BPCR silhouette game really took off. The star of that show was Model 74 Sharps rifle.

What this Postal is “aimed” at is using those pre 1896 traditional rifles (or modern replicas) with the powder they were designed to be used with, black powder, plain base cast bullets and non benchrest support of the rifle.

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MKastning posted this 25 January 2013

Got it Tom! You CBA guys as usual are going to end up costing me $$.

:dude:

Thanks for the edumacation!

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nimrod posted this 25 January 2013

Hey Mike if you get a trapdoor you could shoot it in the BPCR and the military matches too. Get double the pleasure for your money.

RB

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MKastning posted this 25 January 2013

Oh, I don't know about that.. I see those trapdoors beating on guys at the nationals. I dont think I can put up with that abuse. I tend to shoot more sighters than the average bear.

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delmarskid1 posted this 26 January 2013

Handi-Rifles make the criteria? A lot of the old guns were break open. I think I'd like to try it. I hate the thought of giving up my pet duplex load though.

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4060may posted this 26 January 2013

Tom Are you going to stick with the NRA BPCR rules? 7 1/2 min with sighters for the first 5 shots 5 min no sighters second 5 shots?

straight Black Powder or substitutes..only one at this time is Pyrodex..unless the rules now allow the other sub's

IIRC the NRA allows breech seating,in the alloted time only, also paper patched bullets..

I would suggest the target printed on a 24” square so misses can be accounted for..

Anyone thinks the chicken is easy even off cross sticks, iron sights 200M

try it....

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GWarden posted this 26 January 2013

I know all of this is in the discussion stage, but isn't this going to be a rather exclusive match? Lot of shooters do not have access to a 200yd range. In some of the other shooting venues in the CBA there are matches for offhand , and then for the same gun bench matches, normally any sight and iron sight. Would breech seating be allowed? I enjoy shooting BP cartridge, but I don't have a rifle that meets the weight limit. I understand that when anything new is proposed that not everyone will be happy, but seems the more shooters that can be included, the better. You all have a good day. Bob Iowa

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Tom Acheson posted this 26 January 2013

That's exactly right...early in development lots of ideas get introduced. And all input is appreciated.

Things are getting narrowed down, but without the intent to be exclusive.

BP only, 200-yards, NRA weight limit for iron or scoped guns...12 pound 2 oz and 15-pounds, 12 minutes total for as many sighters that you want and then once going for score you will shoot your 10 record shots with no more sighters allowed. Prone or sitting on the ground (no milk stools) over cross sticks.

Target...still deciding. One of our responders sent some really nice reduced size examples of of the chicken, turkey and ram, a white and black version of each. I have a thick pile of the full size chicken, black on off-white background with grid lines on it.These are really old targets! It has the IHMSA logo on it. The paper is thick and it is 17 x22". The shooter can post this on a larger background sheet if he wants to to help find errant hits.

Not sure if we'll have a single target or 2. A sighter will also be included. No spotters or coaches but the shooter can use a spotting scope to look for hits as he progresses.

What did I forget?

Tom

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PETE posted this 26 January 2013

Tom,

What did you forget?

The paragraph starting with “BP only” does not include the non click adjustable scopes as you mentioned earlier. Or else whatever other scope qualifications you would like to use.

Pete

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nimrod posted this 27 January 2013

No Gas checks? Plain base only? Could be paper patched?

And I don't see someone wanting to shoot a Handi Rifle as ramping up the equipment game. The ability to fabricate accurate blackpowder loads, and to master shooting from cross sticks and using adjustable sights or scope with out click adjustments far out weigh the difference in the choice of the action.

My 2 cents worth for what that's worth.

Richard

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GWarden posted this 27 January 2013

Can there be more than just the one BP shooting venue? I'd be willing to help with a postal match for bench. Allow any sight, or have anysight and IS. Allow fixed or breech seating . Bob Iowa

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Tom Acheson posted this 27 January 2013

Correct, the earlier scope details should be included.

The spirit of pre1876.

Plain base only.

Paper patched is just fine. Brech seat no....BPCR means fixed ammo like the DOG did.

The offer to start a new match is open to anyone.

Anyone having fun yet?

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PETE posted this 27 January 2013

Tom,

:):):)

I'm just remembering how much “fun” we had starting up the test for the fixed sight revolver-pistol match. What'd we end up with? Four pages on here on how you should run it.

Your just to nice a guy. If it was me I'd say “Here's the rules. If you want to play fine. Welcome aboard! If not quit yer bitchin'".

As you mention above. Anybody wants to start a match.... Get to it. Don't think there will be to many takers. :) Everybody wants someone else to make the first move so they can tell them how to do it.

So if you REALLY want to do it up brown here's how you........

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 28 January 2013

FWIW the fixed sight handgun is now in the CBA Postal program. That trial thing last year had more entries than some of the existing events. I spend about $70-$80 a year on Postal fees and enjoy the time at the range. I signed up for the fixed sight handgun event for 2013 along with the others I usually do.

Tom

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nimrod posted this 28 January 2013

Tom how are coming along on rules and target?

Anxiously awaiting.

RB

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Tom Acheson posted this 28 January 2013

Have the rules etc. done. Taking some time now to evaluate potential targets. Might get out today once it gets up to 30F. Plan to shoot some test loads with the Sharps at 200-meters. I'll put up the sample targets and see what they look like. Am in contact with a printer.

Patience grasshoppers, patience.

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Tom Acheson posted this 29 January 2013

IF I did it correctly, there should be a photo attached here. The best contrast (for my eyes) is the black on white. The turkey looks smaller than the chicken at 200-meters but would probably produce the more “interesting” scores. The holes in the black chicken were with my fouling load. The hole in the RH leg-body-junction would be scored as a miss because the entire bullet is not on the animal.

We can probably pull this off with one animal for score and a separate target for a sighter. You do not turn in sighter targets when you send your targets back for scoring.

The black chicken is from a large pile that I have that I would donate to the cause. We'll use the center “square” as the tie breaker. If we went with the turkey, I found a printer who would do (1000) for $185-$200 plus shipping on a 24” x 29” sheet, post card thickness. It would be printed with a 3/4” dia. white center for the tie breaker. The chicken sheet is 23” x 19". I'd have to check with the CBA Postal director to see how that expense fits our program or maybe he has an alternative printer. We could call the event BPCR Turkey Shoot.

Tom

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nimrod posted this 29 January 2013

Turkey shoot sounds better that a “chicken” shot. A little tougher target too.

RB

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Tom Acheson posted this 29 January 2013

OK men, time for a poll.

The overall program should be fairly well understood by now. Send me a PM with your e-mail address indicating that you'd be “in” if it was available. I'd like to keep this moving so we can get it up and running yet this season. I can't guess the fee but that will be influenced by a good or lukewarm response level.

Hope to hear from you!

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 30 January 2013

Guys,

Note that the guns need to be pre-1896, not 1876 like one of my mis-typed posts said. Sorry.

So far we have (4) of us committed to the new Postal. We'll need more entrants to help defray the target costs.

Tom

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muley posted this 31 January 2013

Tom, I have a colt/bourchardt action in 45-70, would that qualify?, if so count me in. Jim

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 January 2013

Yes it is a poor quality photo (if it stuck) but you get the idea. This is Nimrod's scaled down turkey for 200-meters. The sheet size is 23 x 29. The printer has the image and I'm waiting on a price. I've also asked what alternate size sheets are available. Maybe a slightly smaller sheet will costs us less.

Our target will not have the grid lines. I found this in Elgin Gates' first IHMSA book. We'll have the CBA logo on the sheet along with a text line or two.

So far 6 of us have made a commitment.

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 January 2013

Mulely,

I have no idea what a colt/bourchardt is. Is it pre-1896 and is it possibly buried in that long list of NRA eligible guns?

I've added you to the list so now we have 7 lined-up on deck.

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 January 2013

Ooooops...if the photo is correct, it is a hammerless design although pre-1896. Need an exposed hammer for this game.

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R Dupraz posted this 31 January 2013

Tom,have you tried shooting a group at that turkey yet?

RD

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 January 2013

No but on Monday I did fire 5 shots at the chicken (200-meters, iron sights) which is pretty close to the same size. Because of the odd shape of the turkey compared to a chicken, this could be challenging.

See the photo of example targets above.

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 January 2013

From the FWIW department...

The Timed Fire Handgun Postal trial season that was started through this forum in 2012 (and is now part of the regular Postal program) had (8) individual shooters and a total of (13) entries. We had semi-auto and revolver categories and some shooters shot both.

So far we have (6) possibly (7) shooters lined-up for this new one. There is a rule that to shoot in the regular CBA Postal events you must be a CBA member. I haven't cleared this with the CBA yet but since this isn't a regular CBA event, we might be able to waive that rule for this trial offering. If some non-members participate they may be enticed to join the CBA so they can do it again next year.

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tturner53 posted this 01 February 2013

That's a very good idea.

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nimrod posted this 01 February 2013

tturner53 wrote: That's a very good idea. So would be allowing a Colt/Bourchardt this is one of the rifles that the NRA chose to ommit for what ever reason? Designed in 1878 and probably built in the 1880's and there are others. This is not going to be a scantioned NRA event so relax the rifle rules a bit and maybe we could get a few more shooters.

Just my 2 cents worth.

RB

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 February 2013

Richard,

Still on the fence on the relaxed rifle rules. But the NRA makes a big deal out of the “exposed hammer” thing so we'd want to retain that. I know squat about the rifles that could be considered that are not in the NRA allowed list. Do you have some examples with exposed hammers, single shot? Don't forget...BP only!

Thanks!

Tom

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GWarden posted this 01 February 2013

Nimrod I'm in the same situation as you are, rifle that doesn't make the requirements for the BP postal match. I don't know who makes the final decisions on new matches, but I'd be willing to handle scoring targets for another postal match. I'd propose a BP cartridge match that is similar to the bench military matches. Have 100yd score/group, and a 200yd score match. Have matches for anysight and IS. Could use fixed or breech seat, these could be separate for fixed and breech seating. Could use the existing targets that are used in the current CBA postal matches. Bob Iowa

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.22-10-45 posted this 01 February 2013

The NRA exposed hammer rule was said to have been put in place to eliminate an “arms race” by the use of “modern” actions such as the Miller & Hoch. But on the other hand..it is kind of silly..a Stevens 44 1/2 replica by CPA which is a copy of a circa 1902 action is allowed..but an ORIGINAL Sharps Borchardt, or hammerless Peabody martini isn't!

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nimrod posted this 01 February 2013

Well .22-10-45 that's the point that I was trying to make. And the rifle that I was planning on using in the postal would be a CPA 44 1/2 it just seems a shame to me to exclude a rifle like the '78 Sharps Bourchardt just because it doesn't have an exposed hammer. I haven't had time to really look over the rules and look up other actions but there were several and I'm sure that there were European rifles used in the old West too that wouldn't make the NRA rule. I'm pretty sure that there were a few turn bolt rifles and some even had hammers on them that would not be allowed.

I was just trying to get a little more room for a few more people to shoot this and have a good time with it which I think that this is the main idea. Nobody's going to get any fame or gain any money of this lets just have fun and enjoy the match if it comes about.

I do think that we should stick to the blackpowder cartridge, blackpowder, cast bullets, and traditional sights whether irons or scope. Cross sticks and the time limit just make it more interesting and add challenge.

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 February 2013

OK guys....the 78 BS is allowed.

Seperate question.....why does our name show-up multiple times in the “currently viewing” area of the forum?

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 February 2013

OK guys....the 78 BS is allowed.

Seperate question.....why does our name show-up multiple times in the “currently viewing” area of the forum?

Tom

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nimrod posted this 01 February 2013

Yeh!!:dude:

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4060may posted this 02 February 2013

Tom Now that the door is open why not ANY single shot rifle, H&R, Ruger No.1 etc. the cross sticks and off the ground will stay, no bench and scopes no larger than 1” dia...any power Black Powder only? or sub? some of the subs are closer to smokeless than Black allowed? duplex not allowed

just a few clarifications

I have been shooting BPCR since 1990...I will not have any problem, whatever the rules are...just so they are clear

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 February 2013

i confess .... i am guilty...

i have been having so much fun watching the circular formation of the ” final ” rules for this shoot ...that i pledge an entry fee, whether or not i wind up with a rifle eligible for the event ...

having recently retired from 30 years of a highly competitive sport ( see carpet racing on documentary channel ) i can humbly mention that i have been there/done that ... regarding structure and rules for organized competition ....

fortunately for all of us, i will here reduce the book i could write on * rules * to just a few thoughts.. ( g )

1) ” fairness ” cannot be achieved in competition. 2) the fewer the rules, the more fun for more people. 3) one end of the rules spectrum is an equipment race ...the other end is a skill race ...try to pick the middle.

ken

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PETE posted this 02 February 2013

So true Ken. Instead of starting a new thread and setting up a new match like they want, they practically take over this thread and try to get Tom to do it their way.

As Tom suggested earlier if you don't like the rules then start your own Postal with the rules you want.

Personally I'm getting a little tired of all the whining. So.... Are we going by the NRA rules or some cobbled up set? If your going to start having a free for all here then take my name off the list.

Pete

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R Dupraz posted this 02 February 2013

I don't see all the discussion and ideas as whinning or trying to take over anything! As far as I'm concerned, Tom tossed his idea out there for discussion and to find out how many of us would be interested in participating under his proposed rules.

Personnally, I think the exchange of ideas is always a good thing. Tom will be the ultimate decision maker anyway as to whether he wants the match rules to follow the NRA silhouette game or to modify them somewhat to allow more shooters to participate.

Seems to me, that is the choice.

RD

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 February 2013

Just an update....still waiting on the printer's response.

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tturner53 posted this 02 February 2013

I'm thinking of a gun purchase. Surprise! Any suggestions for something to use in this match? Maybe some of you fellas with more know-how along these lines could list some possibilities. I'm set up for 45-70 but have wanted a 38-55 for a while. My interests outside this club tend towards silhouette. The postal match #10 appeals to me, Military Big Bore, and maybe the same in live competition. Will a Trapdoor cover them all? My membership in the Gun a Month club was revoked, now I need versatility. Thanks. Oh, and thanks, Tom, for your effort and patience. I'm in heller highwater even if I have to shoot something I know will DQ.

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PETE posted this 02 February 2013

Rd,

Well as you can see as soon as Tom allowed a gun that the NRA doesn't allow then the can is opened by those wanting to allow more changes. I thought things were pretty well settled. Apparently not.

If Tom doesn't feel that he's going to get enuf shooters, then let's scrap the whole idea and start over. It makes no difference to me since I've made up my mind I'm going to be doing nothing but BP shooting in our local twice monthly matches. But I really would like to have a rock solid set of rules posted so I know which way to jump.

Yes. I call it whining when people who can't meet the rules want to change it so they can. Tom must have realised when he threw the idea out that very few CBA members could meet the NRA BPCR rules. The scope class would be particularly hard. I'm aware of only two makers that make a Malcolm copy. The one I have goes for $945. Legal iron sights can go from $200 or so up to $500 or $600. Then you need an exposed hammer gun. More big bucks. I'd be willing to bet that not even many ASSRA shooters could meet the requirements. BPCR is a very specialized game as far as gun, calibers, and sights go.

Pete

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R Dupraz posted this 02 February 2013

AHA!! A chance to spend some one elses money!

Depends on what you want to do with it of course. Nothing wrong with a 38-55 or the 45-70.

I have used a SS 38-55 for some time now. Silhouette, NRA BP three position Midrange and about to try the CBA PBBS class. Pleasant shooter and accurate.

Those Trapdoors can be shooters as well. One Of the clubs that I frequent has an annual Trapdoor match where they shoot NRA bullseye targets at 200 yds. I was scoring for one of my pardners and saw him shoot a group that would have won a lot of CBA military BB matches. His is a nice one of course. They still can be found but aren't cheap anymore.

RD

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PETE posted this 02 February 2013

tturner, If your interest tends more to Shilouette rather than straight target shooting then the minimum considered for Shilouette would be the .38/55 with the .40/65 being a better choice for a minimum cal. For the game Tom is proposing the .32/40 would be ideal. I'd use it myself but I hate to drill more holes in original guns to mount my Malcolm. Might have to enter twice since I have iron sights for it.

A Trapdoor should meet all the requirements of the match Tom is proposing but you'd sure be handicapping yourself. :)

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 February 2013

We had a true Gun of the Month member here. I think he owned one of every model revolver that Dan Wesson made. He'd show up at our IHMSA matches each month with a different gun.

Might have noted this earlier. We don' t have an NRA sanctioned club for BPCR silhouette here in MN. But there is a club that has monthly fun matches where they do the NRA BPCR thing. Distances are a little short but close. They don't run a clock.

A good friend of mine and I both ordered our guns at the same time from C. Sharps. 2-3 month wait and equal to Shiloh (our opinion).

Mine is in 40-70 SS and his in .38-55. He refuses to use BP (the club I mentioned above allows smokeless). He uses 5744 and has won the match a few times. He has a MVA scope. His load has never left a ram standing. This club uses auto reset targets. He chose 38-55 because he has a between the ears problem that is quite sensitive to loud noises and he is a bit recoil sensitive. I spot for him and the load rifle look quite Tame when he shoots. He shot mine once and handed it back saying it “really hurt".

So if you decide on something smaller the 45-70 and work-up the right load, you might surprise yourself.

Tom

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4060may posted this 02 February 2013

I wasn't whining..but if the rules aren't specific..there will be a lot of whining.....

I never understood the NRA not having an any gun class..as long as it was Black Powder...

I personally would love to see Buffalo classic's and any single shot, be allowed to compete..I personally think the NRA lost a lot of shooters because of this

I was the match director at Ridgway for two years....if the rules aren't very specific..there is always someone....

Tom I will even help score targets and set up a data base if needed..pm is all that is necessary

Chuck

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PETE posted this 03 February 2013

Ah. Forget it.

Tom,

When you post the rules on here set in stone, with no changes allowed, then I'll make up my mind if I can play and will let you know via PM like you want. Till then I'll just sit on the fence.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 03 February 2013

Don't know about NRA having an any gun class. How tight are the BP target rules? They can be a lot heavier?

My target guy is still developing his price for us. He promised feedback on Monday.

Safe to assume all of you can open Word? Better yet I'll just cut and paste from the Word doc to here regarding the rules. That's on my computer at work so maybe tomorrow.

Tom

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Michael K posted this 04 February 2013

It is easy to see both sides the of equipment issue. However let's review post #20 and #23. The challenge comes in when trying to please everyone, which is more akin to herding cats, it ain't gonna happen. Those wno are inclined towards traditional BPCR rules are not going to be happy with a liberal rule base. While the the same time there are those who want to give the BPCR postal a try yet do not have a traditional BPCR and for whatever the reason is not able to obtain one.

It is important to build and foster increased participating in the shooting sports, but it must be done with consideration. No matter what happens, Tom is on the spot, and his decission(s) will not be easy. Contrary to populare belief putting on any match is under appreciated and all too often a thankless task. I told Tom I am in, however I do support Pete's point of view.

If it were my decission, NRA BPCR rules apply for this postal. As there appears to be a reasonable interest for a more open or diverse set of rules, equipement, powder types, then an additional postal could be set up. Volunters? Anyone? Don't be shy now, speak up.

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GWarden posted this 04 February 2013

Back at post #56, I'm still willing to score targets for these matches. Bob Iowa

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nimrod posted this 04 February 2013

I'm willing to help in whatever fashion that might be needed.

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 05 February 2013

OK gents, time to step out of the frying pan and into the fire. I'm still waiting on the target guy but here are the rules (the NRA list with our addition of the Sharps Bouchardt):

CBA BPCR Postal rules

NRA rules will be used to define the guns allowed. These are hunting or military style single shots originally made for use with black powder (including modern manufacture replicas), with an exposed hammer (exception for the Sharps Bourchardt), American manufactured prior to 1896, and weighs no more than 12-pounds 2-ounces with iron sights or 15-pounds with a scope. Rifle examples include Ballard, Maynard, Peabody, Remington Hepburn, Remington Rolling Block, Sharps, Springfield trapdoor, Stevens No. 44, 1885 Winchester, Stevens Tip-up, Stevens No. 44, Wesson Falling Block, Wesson (hinged barrel), Whitney Phoenix, Whitney Rolling Block, Winchester 1885, and Wurfflein. While the following single shot actions may not conform to the exact criteria of the NRA rules, they are allowed because they conform to the spirit of the competition in form and function, provided the firearms conform to all other rules: Browning Model 1878, Browning Model 1885, C. Sharps '75, Falling Block Works, Stevens 44 Ã‚Â½, Wickliff '76 and Sharps Bourchardt. No Schuetzen-style rifles or stocks. Removable cheek pieces and recoil pads are permitted.

(a) Scope must have external adjustments, Ã‚Â¾” dia. or smaller and no limitation on magnification.

(b) No length or power limitation on the scope. Scope tube body to be 3/4” or less in diameter and any ocular or objective lenses, adjusting or assembly rings to be less than 1” in diameter.

(c) No Internal scope adjustments for windage or elevation.

(d) Mounts are to be of the traditional style of the period, and contain the windage and elevation adjustments for the scope in either, or both, the front or rear mounts. No click adjustments in the mount. Either dove tail mounting or scope block mounting is allowed.

Original scope mounts of either the Cataract or Malcom style or variations thereof, or replicas or derivatives of either style, are allowed provided the replica or derivative conforms to the criteria of paragraph (d) above.

Bullets must be cast lead, plain based. Powder is black powder only, no smokeless powder in any quantity which excludes duplex loads.

Categories: Iron sight or scope.

Shooting Position: Shoot from the ground, either sitting or prone. The use of cross sticks is optional when in either of these two positions (you are not required to use them but no other types of artificial support are allowed.

Distance: The shooting distance is 200-yards.

Target: An NRA animal silhouette on paper. One target for sighters and one target for record/score will be provided. (Do not send your sighter target back for scoring when you return your record target.)

Course of Fire: 10-rounds for score. Full bullet strikes on the target would be scored as a point. There will be a 5/8” white center “dot” that would be used to break ties where incomplete bullet strikes on the dot would count and those hits are worth 2-points.

Firing time:12-minutes to shoot as many sighters as you want and shoot your 10-record rounds. You will fire only 10-shots for score immediately after shooting your last sighter shot. When shooting your record shots, if you miss the paper, that is still scored as a miss and one of your 10-allowed shots.

Misc.: No spotters or coaches. You can have (1) wind flag right next to you on the firing line. If the club has large “community” always-in-place flags down range, they can stay. The shooter can have a spotting scope in place for his use while shooting his rounds.

Target return date: 1 Oct. 2013. Return your fired targets to:Richard Brinkman 1205 Baltimore St. Pleasant Hill, MO 64080

I'm ready for the flack!

Tom

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nimrod posted this 05 February 2013

Looks good to me just one point since I will be scoring I do see the potential for some ties on points with the center “Dot” only 5/8” it probably will not be hit much if at all. How about in the event of a tie the widest shot from the center of the “Dot” loses?

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 05 February 2013

Richard,

Yes, that's what I was thinking also. Closest to the “dot” breaks the tie. Might be a new version of horseshoes!

Tom

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PETE posted this 05 February 2013

Tom,

Looks good. Let us know when we can get targets. Who from, and the cost of the match.

The one thing I was worried about was when the return date would be. Glad your giving us all Summer to work up a load and do a little practicing.

Any chance of getting extra targets to practice on, or we on our own in that regard?

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 05 February 2013

One of our CBA clubs wants to buy some for summer matches. That will defray the CBA's overall cost. Mike Kasting-CBA Postal Match Director-has agreed to be the recipient of shooter requests for targets/tech sheets so we'll buy our targets from him. Since we won't have 30-people doing this, I suspect (but Mike will need to confirm) that we can buy spare targets for practice.

First I have to get the pricing worked out with the printer and then Mike will use that info to develop an entry fee structure.

More to follow....

Tom

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4060may posted this 05 February 2013

I'm still in

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nimrod posted this 05 February 2013

It might be a while before targets are available if someone wants a target for some practice I could make a outline of the stencil that I used and sent to Tom and send one to you. And then you could then make a copy of that and make your own stencil out of cardboard or piece of plastic and paint up some for youself.

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 12 February 2013

Just a brief update so you don't think I lost interest or wandered off in the woods.

Still waiting on the proof target. Mike Kastning has the “rules". More to follow....

Tom

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MKastning posted this 27 February 2013

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MKastning posted this 27 February 2013

CBA BPCR Postal rules

NRA rules will be used to define the guns allowed. These are hunting or military style single shots originally made for use with black powder (including modern manufacture replicas), with an exposed hammer (exception for the Sharps Bourchardt), American manufactured prior to 1896, and weighs no more than 12-pounds 2-ounces with iron sights or 15-pounds with a scope. Rifle examples include Ballard, Maynard, Peabody, Remington Hepburn, Remington Rolling Block, Sharps, Springfield trapdoor, Stevens No. 44, 1885 Winchester, Stevens Tip-up, Stevens No. 44, Wesson Falling Block, Wesson (hinged barrel), Whitney Phoenix, Whitney Rolling Block, Winchester 1885, and Wurfflein. While the following single shot actions may not conform to the exact criteria of the NRA rules, they are allowed because they conform to the spirit of the competition in form and function, provided the firearms conform to all other rules: Browning Model 1878, Browning Model 1885, C. Sharps '75, Falling Block Works, Stevens 44 Ã‚Â½, Wickliff '76 and Sharps Bourchardt. No Schuetzen-style rifles or stocks. Removable cheek pieces and recoil pads are permitted.

(a) Scope must have external adjustments, Ã‚Â¾” dia. or smaller and no limitation on magnification.

(b) No length or power limitation on the scope. Scope tube body to be 3/4” or less in diameter and any ocular or objective lenses, adjusting or assembly rings to be less than 1” in diameter.

(c) No Internal scope adjustments for windage or elevation.

(d) Mounts are to be of the traditional style of the period, and contain the windage and elevation adjustments for the scope in either, or both, the front or rear mounts. No click adjustments in the mount. Either dove tail mounting or scope block mounting is allowed.

Original scope mounts of either the Cataract or Malcom style or variations thereof, or replicas or derivatives of either style, are allowed provided the replica or derivative conforms to the criteria of paragraph (d) above.

Bullets must be cast lead, plain based. Powder is black powder only, no smokeless powder in any quantity which excludes duplex loads.

Categories: Iron sight or scope.

Shooting Position: Shoot from the ground, either sitting or prone. The use of cross sticks is optional when in either of these two positions (you are not required to use them but no other types of artificial support are allowed.

Distance: The shooting distance is 200-yards.

Target: An NRA animal silhouette on paper. One target for sighters and one target for record/score will be provided. (Do not send your sighter target back for scoring when you return your record target.)

Course of Fire: 10-rounds for score. Full bullet strikes on the target would be scored as a point. There will be a 5/8” white center “dot” that would be used to break ties where incomplete bullet strikes on the dot would count and those hits are worth 2-points.

Firing time:12-minutes to shoot as many sighters as you want and shoot your 10-record rounds. You will fire only 10-shots for score immediately after shooting your last sighter shot. When shooting your record shots, if you miss the paper, that is still scored as a miss and one of your 10-allowed shots.

Misc.: No spotters or coaches. You can have (1) wind flag right next to you on the firing line. If the club has large “community” always-in-place flags down range, they can stay. The shooter can have a spotting scope in place for his use while shooting his rounds.

Target return date: 1 Oct. 2013. Return your fired targets to:

Richard Brinkman

1205 Baltimore Street

Pleasant Hill, MO 64080

To enter, same as regular postal matches. Match #22 BPCR 200yd

Entry Fee: $4.00

Send order to:

Mike Kastning

CBA Postal Match

Box 744

Elk Point, SD 57025

Extra targets for practice are available at .75 each, if you want to practice.

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PETE posted this 27 February 2013

Checks in the mail.

Pete

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MKastning posted this 28 February 2013

Great! I will be watching this one with great interest as I found myself wondering today how this bird looks 200yrds out..

Then I wondered if it would be an interesting offhand target at 100, with pistol caliber carbines.. I may have to buy a target for research. :)

Sorry, just picked up a .357 lever action and my brass order arrived today via the same FedEx truck.

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PETE posted this 28 February 2013

Mike,

Interesting! Might have to pass on the carbine. Unless I buy one. :) Do have an old Marlin lever RIFLE in .32 S&W Long.

Pete

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tturner53 posted this 28 February 2013

I'm in, even though I don't have a gun that qualifies. I'm ordering a target. If I get a gun in time, great. Otherwise I'm shooting my H&R 45-70 and will post my results here in this thread. I'm suggesting that those of you who are in a similar situation do the same. We'll have fun, that's what it's all about. A lot of H&R owner's out there, I suspect. If I got it right, non CBA members are eligible here too for this trial run. How can you beat that? For the record, I'm fine with the new program and support the choice of guns allowed as is. I just want to play and am fresh out of buffalo guns at the moment. We'll see about that. I'm assuming this approach is a-ok with the management. Heck, it just helps build up the $ pot for the real winners and may bring in fresh talent for the future. Anybody else want to shoot in this off the record class? I can't wait to try some BP loads, been a while.

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nimrod posted this 28 February 2013

tturner53 I think that's great if enough people get interested there might be a whole new class. I know that at my club that there are several people that would like to shoot it but don't have BPCR rifles and probably are not going to spend the money to get one. So why not have another class or two? I have even thought about a military issue class and hunter class. No benchrest allowed shoot off cross sticks, prone, sitting, kneeling, shoot off the chunk, or rock or limb much as a hunting situation. Could make it a reentry. I'm talking about club level stuff here before somebody gets all riled up and gets their tights in a wad.

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 28 February 2013

"Tights in a wad” that's really neat! I gotta get out more!

My check is on the way this weekend. Should be a hoot!

Tom

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.22-10-45 posted this 28 February 2013

Hello, tturner53..Off the record class..thats a neat idea. How about something for us guys who arn't so lucky to have 200yds at their disposal? Scaled down targets maybe? I know this is the CBA..but what about a rimfire class? The bullets are still (so far!) lead alloy! What I did for grins was take the original dimensions of the old chilled cast iron 1000yd. Creedmoor targets of the 1970's & scaled them down for 100yds. on heavy paper. I made both the early square & later round targets. The bull is 3.3” that might not sound so small..but looking thru iron sights..it looks like a pencil dot! The first time I tried them, I was using a 1930 BSA 12/15 martini match rifle shooting prone with iron sights. No sling or rest. I managed to keep quite a few in the black..it was a hoot..and I know it would be a fun match. Now this has been brought up in the ASSRA..with no results...but what about a class using cast bullets in those old single-shot rifles converted to varmint calibers in the 1930's thru late 40's? I think main reason no one in the ASSRA didn't go for it was their rule against the use of gas checks..though these old .22 centerfires can be shot with plain-base bullets. This would get alot of these old interesting guns gathering dust out of the closets and back into use. Rules could be for no bolt guns either iron or scope use.

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tturner53 posted this 01 March 2013

Well since it's “off the record” I think a guy can shoot whatever he wants, at any distance available. It's just for fun. Doesn't count. If I don't have a gun that qualifies I won't send in my target, why bother the guy? But, I want an official target to shoot to get a taste and motivation to find a gun for next year. As far as I know this is open to non-members so this may bring in some new guys to the fold. My postal match order went in the mail today including the new #22. The postal matches are about as much fun as you can have for so little money.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 March 2013

i am sending some $ for the bpc shoot, even tho i don't have a correct rifle ... i shot a bumble bee win. hi-wall 32-40 a long time ago, i have often tried to buy it since ... over $2K now, so i just ordered extra sighter targets ... ( g ) . wonder if my R3 45-70 would carry a whole 100 yards ... at 900 fps.

since we are conjuring up an honor system shoot, i keep seeing those great big bull targets by HOPPES at the local wally world ... that would make a standard target available to all of us here outlaws, no postage expense .... count me in also on the outlaw shoot ... ken

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303PV posted this 01 March 2013

What about Mauser 71 Martini Henry , Gras rifles?

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SSShooter posted this 04 March 2013

200yd is good. Suggest the standard ASSRA 200yd 25-ring target as the chicken will be too easy to hit at 200yd. The one white dot in the center will not be enough to break ties. Keep us “posted". ;)

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nimrod posted this 04 March 2013

The closest shot to the center of the white dot will be the tie breaker.

And welcome to the forum I just noticed that it was your first post.

RB

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PETE posted this 04 March 2013

SSShooter,

Ahhh.... It's a Turkey not a Chicken we'll be shooting at in the CBA Postal.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 08 March 2013

Just in case you haven't scrolled down the 5-pages that this post has grown into, the targets are in and they are being sent to shooters that are entering this new Postal event.

Go to post #87 for entering/sign-up instructions that Mike has posted.

Good luck and have fun everyone!

Tom

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 28 March 2013

I would be interested in this. I don't have access to a 200 yard range at this time but have been thinking of dropping one of my clubs in order to join the Woburn Sportsmans Club where they do have a 200 yard range and I believe a CBA chapter.

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4060may posted this 26 May 2013

Tom Just had to see if i could do it with iron sights, 1 sighter over the top of the head, 2 misses over 1 miss low left, oops

By the way the turkey is 80yd hunter pistol size

make a cut-out and say paint on plastic table cloth, hits are easier to see

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nimrod posted this 17 September 2013

Time is getting close on this one I recieved one target yesterday. Hope some others are still shooting this one. I loaded up some 38-55's today now the dang wind is suppose to blow 20 to 30 mph the next couple of days maybe it'll calm down next week.

RB

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 September 2013

NIMROD; noticed you are working with a 38-55 ... we here are building a 38-55 in a 94 win. ... we find there are two lengths of 38-55 brass ... any ideas what gives with that ?

so far we haven't achieved accuracy desired, and the case length variance just adds to our confusion. we shall overcome ...eventually.

fwiw, blackpowder loads shoot great ... smokeless not so good ! so cool !

ken

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nimrod posted this 18 September 2013

The longer lenght is the original case, hard to find but Starline does make it and it's thinner more like the originals. The shorter has a thicker neck as made by Winchester and Remington if they still make it.

This something that you might have to contend with if shooting a original rifle as the chambers and bore and groove size are all over the place.

Black powder! The mother of all powders! That other stuff is just a passing fancy!

RB

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Tom Acheson posted this 18 September 2013

Shot mine last Thursday. It's not as easy of the X-sticks as it is off the bench. Sticks are stabbed into the ground and if you don't get them in the same starting position each time, point of impact can vary. Also helps to reduce any drag between the barrel and the sticks.

Starline has both lengths of .38-55 brass. Buddy of mine is ordering a .38-55 Highwall and is specing the longer brass. Read somewhere that if you use the shorter stuff, the necks might have to be turned but that comment should be verified. About an 1/8” difference.

Tom