ADDING TIN

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  • Last Post 12 October 2018
cast posted this 29 September 2018

when adding tin is it best to buy bar tin or can you use 50/50 solder

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onondaga posted this 29 September 2018

There is no reason for a "best" about it. Either works fine if you know what you are doing. Alloying works more correctly if you melt the higher melt temperature metal first and add the lower melt temperature metals in order. Look up and compare melt temperatures to be sure if you are not.

Gary

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OU812 posted this 29 September 2018

Do not add too much tin. Some say 5 percent is too much?

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JeffinNZ posted this 29 September 2018

I have seen it stated anymore than 1% added to the likes of WW is enough.  I tend to run ball park 2% when doing a batch of alloy.  40/1 binary alloys makes for very pretty bullets and the alloy flows very well at the correct temp. 

Cheers from New Zealand

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onondaga posted this 29 September 2018

There is also the science of metallurgy. As little as1/2 of 1% Tin added to lead increases the flow quality of lead to give a good mold fill to the maximum the mold will do at the ideal casting temperature of 100 degrees F, above the flow point of the alloy. That is all you really need .5% Tin for mold fill-out. Tin will also increase the BHN of lead as for every additional 1% of Tin the BHN increases 0.3. That is not a lot compared to as every 1% additional Antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.

The bullet casters that don't know these basics are handicapped in their hobby.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 30 September 2018

I was given a good supply of 50/50 solder years ago and thought I would use it to "sweeten" wheel weights sometime, but after several decades of getting WW from various sources I have never found any that didn't cast just fine without adding tin. I am not doubting that a bit of tin would make shinier bullets but I instead used my solder to make 25:1 out of pure lead scrap from a JB bullet maker.

John

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pat i. posted this 01 October 2018

Like John years ago I used to add a little tin to WWs but once I ran out of tin and started using straight WWs I didn't see any difference. Now once or twice a year I save the money I used to spend on tin to treat myself to a bottle of Makers Mark. Might not make for shinier bullets but it does bring a nice glow to my nose.

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cbshtr posted this 02 October 2018

I began collecting 50/50 solder, or whatever ratio it was, a few years ago. I finally melted it down to make ingots so I could cast proper size bullets to add per pound of melt to get the 1 to 2 percentage. What I wasn't prepared for was the unseen flux that is manufactured in the rolls of solder. What a mess it was to scim it off. I ended up with about 24 pounds of 50/50 and I'm pretty sure I have less than $15 invested in it. I'm planning on casting some 320 grain bullets. That will give me 160 grains of tin to add per pound of alloy which will be just over 2 percent tin, depending on what was in the original melt. I still haven't been able to test my theory about getting better bullets, but for what little I have invested it certainly can't hurt.

Robert Homan

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 02 October 2018

cbshtr -  two good points you make!   Melting it all together to make up ONE KNOWN set of ingots.  I have 40 rolls of 63/37 (tin/lead) electronic solder from when our plant went to lead-free.  So I use it to sweeten a pot full - and the flux is GOOD for that process.  Yes it smokes a bit. 

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Dale53 posted this 02 October 2018

I always add 2% tin to my wheelweight alloy simply because it works well for me over many years of experimenting. I have a couple of scales on the bench next to my lead pot. One is a simple mechanical scale to weigh my ingots. Then, I use a pocket calculator to figure the ounces of tin needed. I have a small postal scale next to the large scale. That is what I use to weigh my tin. I put a tin ingot on the postal scale. Let's say I need six ounces of tin for my mix. The tin ingot weighs 1.4 lbs. I hold the ingot with pliers after the lead pot metal is up to temp and carefully stick the tin ingot in the melt and, using the scale, melt off what I need. It is MUCH simpler to do than it sounds like. It takes no time at all. 

The small postal scale is behind the spray can in this photo. Before I get another comment on the powder caddy - it is EMPTY.

http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/QASSRAPeregrine-Casting2-2006015.jpg.html

That way, I waste no tin and maintain my chosen alloy "as I go".

FWIW

Dale53

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John Alexander posted this 02 October 2018

I want to word this carefully so it doesn't offend anyone, but why in the heck does anybody add 2% tin to wheelweight metal when 1% will do the job, and some of us never add tin and get good bullets. The metallurgists we have had as CBA members (Dennis Marshal and Bill Ferguson) have told us that it is a waste of tin for about 40 years without any visible effect on practice.

Where did the rule of adding 2% tin to WW come from?  Did one of our gurus from years past specify 2%?

Of course this cast bullet affliction we have is a hobby and it's your own business how you do it. I am just curious.

 

John

 

 

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 02 October 2018

I want to word this carefully so it doesn't offend anyone, but why in the heck does anybody add 2% tin to wheelweight metal when 1% will do the job, and some of us never add tin and get good bullets. The metallurgists we have had as CBA members (Dennis Marshal and Bill Ferguson) have told us that it is a waste of tin for about 40 years without any visible effect on practice.

Where did the rule of adding 2% tin to WW come from?  Did one of our gurus from years past specify 2%?

Of course this cast bullet affliction we have is a hobby and it's your own business how you do it. I am just curious.

John

 SINCE you asked, the reason given for the 2% was EXPERIENCE.  That works for me. 

I use 8%.  Why?  a) it was a 400 lb batch of WW with tin thrown in and later measured.  b) it works.  c) I am in the perhaps unique position where tin is CHEAP and lead expensive, therefore NOT a waste.

 

 

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BigMan54 posted this 02 October 2018

Old Mr. Art Green who sold Lead, Linotype, WW, tin bars &  pure alloys from a tiny office in Beverly Hills for maybe about a hunnert years. Told me the last time I saw him that the new stick on WW would take about 2% tin to harden it enough for good fill out and about 12 bhn. 

I don't remember my DAD & UNCLE  ever adding tin to the old (1960's) COWW. They mixed WW and #2 to get the alloy that we cast 90% of our Handgun BULLETS from. 

Tin was reserved for 20/1 for my DAD'S HBWC and bullets for the .45-70 loads.

To the best of my memory.  I don't recall reading about WW+2%tin until about a dozen years ago in the now defunct guns of the old west mag.

Add what you think you might need in a small batch. Cast some and see how the fill out & hardness satisfy your needs. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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RicinYakima posted this 02 October 2018

I has used WW's for at least 50 years. The issue is the changing alloy used. US made WW's from about 1995 on have been pretty consistent 96% lead, 3.5% antimony and 0.5% tin. When I started in 1961 they were 90/7/3. In the late 1990's here in the PNW, where there is an Asian car unloaded off the ship every 15 seconds 24/7, we began to see zinc, aluminum, bismuth and calcium in the clip on WWs made in Asia. So by 2000 I just stop gathering them because of the issue of sort was just to hard on my arthritic hands.

This week I just smelted out the last 5-gallon bucket of WW's, which with my collection from the past will last at least the rest of my shooting life. However, I am still buying 30/1 alloy for the BPC guns and pure for flintlock balls.

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Eutectic posted this 02 October 2018

Glen Fryxell has written articles for the CBA journal as well as magazines. A double score of his articles are available at the Los Angeles Silhouette Club site:  http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm. One of Glens favorite alloys is WW sweetened with 2% tin.

I do not know where the 2% tin came from, but it has been around for a very long time. Tin used to be relatively inexpensive, and available as scrap. Coils from beer coolers were pure tin tubing, now they are plastic. Now tin is uncommon in scrap and expensive. 1% tin works just fine, if you have to use more to get good casting quality, chances are there are other metals contaminating the alloy.   

Steve

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Ed Harris posted this 02 October 2018

IIRC Col. E.H. Harrison recommended 2% tin so that if you reused the alloy after several melts, that you would not have "cooked" off all the tin from oxidation, back in the days before people started using thermometers and PIDs.  At the time Lyman was pushing #2 alloy and Col. H felt that using 5% was a "costly absurdity."  I know we published the 2% figure multiple times in various NRA publications, but Dennis Marshall was the guy who said that "even 2% is a costly absurdity with the cost of tin now" (that was in the 1980s), and that 0.5% was enough if you didn't cast, solidify and reuse the alloy more than once, just to add your sprue back to the pot.

These days I add scrap linotype to my WW or backstop lead to harden and sweeten a bit.  

Linotype and Wheelweight blends, approximate to estimate hardness:

 

[Lino-Pounds(22) + WW-pounds(12)] / TotalPounds = BHN

1:10 linotype to wheelweights 1(22) +10(12) = 142/11 = 12.9 BHN

1:5 linotype to wheelweights:  1(22) + 5(12) = 82 /6 = 13.6 BHN

1:4 linotype to wheelweights:  1(22) + 4(12) = 70 / 5 = 14 BHN

1: 3 linotype to wheelweights:  1(22) + 3(12) = 58 / 4 = 14.5 BHN

1:2 linotype to wheelweights:  1(22) + 2(12) = 46 / 3 = 15 BHN

1:1 linotype to wheelweights: 1(22) + 1(12) = 34 / 2 = 17 BHN

This presumes "new" linotype and plumber's lead. 

If your salvaged linotype or soft scrap differ in hardness by your testing, then substitute "your" numbers.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pisco posted this 10 October 2018

hi i’m new here i have been casting on and off for 30 years i used w/w for years when i started casting for the 303 i started adding scrap solder i buy from the raidiator repair shop after experimenting with different mixes i use 7 pounds of w/w with 1 pound of scrap solder works for me i told dave at cbe what my mix is and he reckons there is nothing wrong with my mix 

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Larry Gibson posted this 10 October 2018

"I have used WW's for at least 50 years. The issue is the changing alloy used. US made WW's from about 1995 on have been pretty consistent 96% lead, 3.5% antimony and 0.5% tin. When I started in 1961 they were 90/7/3"

The quote from Ric's post applies to me also.  I have recommended adding 2% to COWWs of post '95 manufacture for many years.  It did not originate with me as I read to do it somewhere.  The reasoning to add 2% tin to COWWs is documented in the "Metallurgy" articles in Lyman's CBHBs #3 and #4 by Dennis Marshall and Robert J. Block, P.H.D. P.E. In those articles it is explained that a balance of antimony and tin upwards of 5% produce a superior alloy because the Sn and Sb, in equal portions, combine together forming the intermetallic compound SnSb increases the strength and hardness.  They also, in balance of 5% or less each, remain in solution in the lead and do not "crystalize" out during solidification.   

I still have about 2/3 of a 5 gal bucket of old COWWs from pre '95.  They test out at 92/5/3.  They cast very good bullets but if the alloy or mould get to hot visible spots of separated antimony can be seen with visible shrinkage in those spots.  Using post '95 COWWs, which test out at 96 -97/3 - 2.5/.5, the cast bullets usually cast well but generally have a very large weight variation because the lack of tin reduces the flow of the alloy in the mould.  Adding 2% tin to balance with the antimony produces superior bullets in fillout and with less weight variation.  Bottom line is I get superior bullets with less rejects because the alloy is better than "good enough".

Thus with all of my ternary alloyed bullets for any serious use ("blasting" bullets are an exception) I try to balance the % of tin to antimony not to exceed 5% each (Lyman #2 alloy).  With modern (post '95) COWWs that means adding 2% tin gives basically a 95/2.5/2.5 ternary alloy which has proven to be excellent for many applications.

Whether the addition of any tin to COWWs is "necessary" depends on the needs of the caster, the type of cast bullet shooting he does and the level of accuracy he expects.  The better the alloy for cast bullets the better the bullets will be and consequently the greater the potential for better accuracy......just depends on what each of us wants.

LMG 

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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John Alexander posted this 11 October 2018

Larry,

I have just a couple of nits to pick with your dissertation.

In paragraph two your say " a balance of antimony and tin upwards of 5% produce a superior alloy because the Sn and Sb, in equal portions, combine together forming the intermetallic compound SnSb increases the strength and hardness."

I don't doubt that it true, but this equates strength and hardness with superiority. This may be valid in your experience with high velocity CB loads, but the vast majority of our members shoot loads where plain COWW are superior to harder bullets and for many applications even softer bullets will shoot better. The last thing many inexperienced casters need is harder bullets.

My experience is directly counter to your last paragraph I don't know how you cast, but my experience with plain COWW for competition is that the bullets show very little weight variation (that is why I feel confident in not weigh sorting my competition bullets). My rejection is usually almost zero and not because I am willing to overlook defects. I think I and others have demonstrated in front of witnesses that such bullets, and even softer bullets, shoot just fine.

For the normal velocities most of our members shoot both rifles and pistols I believe Dennis Marshall (quoted above by Ed) is right that  "even 2% is a costly absurdity.") 

John

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Brodie posted this 12 October 2018

Oh what the heck!  As long as I am not paying for it I don't care how much Tin you add to your wheel weights or plain Lead.  I think I will just go on doing what works for me and not worry about what is "correct" or "acceptable" for someone else.

If I get better bullets by holding one of my old pipes in my mouth and humming bawdy songs while I cast that is what I am going to do.  If I want to pay for 2% tin added or not what does anybody else care.  It is all just opinion and personal preference.  Besides, I would probably have to go to China to get that much tin anyway.  Brodie
"

B.E.Brickey

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Larry Gibson posted this 12 October 2018

John

As I stated....it just depends on what each of us want.  You asked a couple questions in previous posts in this thread (Where did the rule of adding 2% tin to WW come from?  Did one of our gurus from years past specify 2%?) and reiterated the blanket quote about the absurdity of adding 2% tin. You are satisfied (your want) with plain COWW alloy it seems.  I also shoot a lot of plain COWW alloyed bullets quite satisfactorily (my want there certainly agrees with yours).  Where we differ is, as I stated; "Thus with all of my ternary alloyed bullets for any serious use.......... I try to balance the % of tin to antimony not to exceed 5% each (Lyman #2 alloy).  But the problem is most of my cast bullet shooting is not what I call "serious use".

Most of my cast bullet shooting is at "normal" cast bullet velocities and not "with high velocity cast bullets". A lot, if not most of my pistol bullets are of COWW alloy or with who knows what alloy from range lead.  With my "serious use" cast bullets it would seem to be that most CBA competitors agree with me that strength and hardness equate to superior cast bullets.  When we look at the latest national matches for BR competition (2017) we see there were about 45 competitors.  Out of those only 3 listed "WWs" as the alloy used (refer to the tech data).  Of the remaining alloys listed all would have more than .5% tin and would appear considerably more than 2% tin.  It appears you also competed in that match and listed a 20-1 alloy used?  That means you added 5% tin to the lead?.......  Thus it begs the question; if  "even 2% is a costly absurdity." is a correct blanket applies to all rule then apparently you have money to burn?  depressed

All kidding aside, I have my reasons for adding 2% tin to "modern" COWWs when I find it necessary for my needs/wants the same as you have your reasons for not adding the tin.  You asked the questions and I, along with a couple others, simply answered as to why I and when I add the 2% tin as have others mentioned why they do.  I did not say nor imply that "inexperienced shooters" have to do as I do. I did not say that you or any other CBA shooters must add tin to any alloy.  All I said was that I simply recommend it.......

 

Adding 2% tin to current COWWs, besides casting better quality bullets (my opinion), also increases the BHN (strength) from 9 - 11 to 13+.  The addition of 2% tin also increases the malleability of the alloy.

Also I find the "costly absurdity" to be a factual absurdity.  Adding 2% tin to 10 lbs of COWW alloy amounts to 3.2 ounces.  That's 1/5 of a pound.  Rotometals (the most expensive) has pure tin today for less than $20 a pound.  So 2% tin which is less than $4.  Tin can be had much cheaper by buying pewter and solder.  The last tin I got (last year) was 60/40 bar solder which I paid 50 cents a pound for which means I paid about $1 a pound for the tin.  Thus using that tin it costs me 20 cents to add 2% tin to 10 lbs of COWW alloy......hardly what I'd call "a costly absurdity"..... you may believe it is and I have no argument with that......

LMG

 

 

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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