AR High Velocity

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  • Last Post 14 August 2017
45 2.1 posted this 08 August 2017

AR-10, 130 gr. LEE, 3011 fps, 5 shots at 100 yds....... And it repeats.

Any comments?

 

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Bohica793 posted this 08 August 2017

More specifics please:  powder, lube, GC/PB, coated?  Enquiring minds want to know.....

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Ross Smith posted this 08 August 2017

3 shots? hard to tell. It also looks like a lead/powder smear????????? on the bottom right. 

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Bohica793 posted this 08 August 2017

Says 5 shots, but I agree that it looks like the rounds are tumbling.

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onondaga posted this 08 August 2017

You too can get clean holes in your targets by taping them to corrugated cardboard or corrugated plastic political lawn signs. My club range supplies both. If you hang your targets in the air or over big holes you get big ragged holes in targets instead of clean holes. I prefer clean holes.

Gary

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Starmetal posted this 08 August 2017

If you measure center to center that group is just a little bit over 1 inch. That LEE round tears paper pretty well.  If they were tumbling you sure wouldn't get an almost 1 inch group. Besides how would a short 130 grain bullet tumble when fired from a 10 twist barrel?  I shot that group. The load is 40 grains of H4198 in a military 7.62 case with a Wolf large rifle primer and BPI shot buffer. The bullet was checked with an aluminum gas check of my own making.  The lube is also my own lube which to simplify is basically a beeswax/vaseline/soap lube. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 08 August 2017

great group ... the guys have been trying to stir up interest in AR type cast shooting ... maybe this will add to that kindling ...

40 gr 4198 is interesting ...  usually for that much pizzazz most would go to 4895---4320  range ...did it burn pretty clean with the 130 grain ??

ken

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Starmetal posted this 09 August 2017

Not all the standard canister powder will give you over 3000 fps with a cast bullet of that weight, thus reason I chose to try 4198 first. Probably what surprise me the most is I had the bullet cast up for use in a M1 carbine and they weren't my normal alloy that I use for larger rifle cast bullet shooting.  The surprise came that they not only held up to the pressure and velocity, that they actually shot very well. I've have since then cast them up of my "regular" alloy which is 50/50   ww/lead water dropped, but  Ihaven't got out to shoot them yet. I'm also comtemplating to trying this load in my Browning A Bolt Boss varminter to see how it may do. 

Yes the load burned very clean and the bore looked very good after pushing that bullet to that velocity.  Now i'm wondering what it may do on varmints at that speed.

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Larry Gibson posted this 09 August 2017

Just a word of caution before anyone jumps out there and duplicates starmetals load.  I duplicated it in February 2015 and velocity and pressure tested it.  Be advised it runs 62 to 66,000+ psi.

 

 

Also be advised the target posted is cropped.

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 August 2017

wow !! ... like the bumblebee and the 22 rimfire ..... this load just shouldn't have worked ..

pistol bullets at 3000 psi and huge deforming pressure ... ... nah !! ....

please keep working with this ... i think i might have that mold somewhere and a 308 and some 4198 ...   never tried it at 3000 tho ...

they say you won't get old as long as you keep learning ...   if you can duplicate this target ... i might actually get a little younger ...    ... ( g ) ...

ken

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Scearcy posted this 09 August 2017

The Hornady manual goes up into this load range with 110 gr jacketed bullets. Lee goes to 27 gr of 4198 with 130 gr cast for a MV of about 2450 fps. I have a few hundred of the Harris bullets lying around so perhaps a small project.

The fact that the rifle is an AR10 seems purely coincidental in this case. The velocity and pressure are what makes this interesting.

I would like to see all of the targets or at least 4 five shot groups from the same day as accidents can happen.

Jim

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Starmetal posted this 09 August 2017

Gentlemen I stated that I fired that load in an AR 10. I used the LEE 120R which mold number is 90364. LEE states it as a 120 grain bullet, but with first alloy I uses, inaddition to the lube and gas check, mine weighed just under 130 grains. With that said my AR 10 has the 7.62 NATO chamber, not the 308W chamber used  by LMG and also my alloy wasn't #2 water quenched. That's much harder then what I used. Then there is the fact that the AR's suck up much gas to operate.  Firing the same loads in various bolt rifle with the same barrel lenght as my AR 10 the velocity was much higher in the bolt rifles. So work up your load in your rife even if it is an AR 10 with the 7.62 NATO chamber. 

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Starmetal posted this 09 August 2017

LEE is pretty close with the right alloy, but my new alloy is much lighter.  Here's a pic of the bullet on the scale. 

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 10 August 2017

If there is anymore petty bickering in this or any other thread between the parties, whom know who they are, I will delete the comments and ban those members from the forum. Don't temp me, I don't want to hear any more. Period!

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys & Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Starmetal posted this 10 August 2017

I have an update. As I mentioned I wanted to try that LEE 120R bullet out of my Browning A Bolt varminter. I'm just doing test loads to see what I'm working with.  The load I tested was 39.0 grains of H4198, .500 CC BPI shotshell buffer, the LEE 120R bullet that I've previously posted cast from 50/50 alloy (wheelweights/lead), CCI large rifle primer, and the case was a Canadian 7.62 NATO.  The velocity was 3058 fps.  As I mentioned the AR uses a huge amount of gas to operate it's DI system and it's evident here as this load is one grain less powder then what I shot in the AR 10, but yet gave 47 fps more velocity.  I have posted two pictures here of the head of the case showing the primer and a side shot of the case showing the web area. The case shows no signs of excessive pressure, the bolt lift was as though there wasn't a fired case in the chamber (remember the A Bolt has a harder 60 degree bolt lift), the case literally fell out of the chamber. Yes I know that these are lab grade test, but you know what I mean.  So this load is a go and I'll be trying it out soon.

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OU812 posted this 10 August 2017

The classic one good group photo. I admit than I was also bad about posting pictures of one good group. I find that I post less often now. 

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Starmetal posted this 10 August 2017

Actually I shot more then "one" good group. I shot enough good groups with that AR 10 and the original heavier softer bullets I had used, that it prompted me to cast more bullets up using my normal alloy.  Well they set for years until 45 2.1 urged me to get back with it. So like I posted today I was testing a load, but this time in the Browing A Bolt. 

You know, not to be a smart a**, but is there some kind of book out there that has all the rules for how you post on gun forums? You know like how many group photos you have to post? What happen to trust and honestly.  I've had people on other forum want to have ABC, CBS, and NBC come out to my range and do a video session of the whole process.  Yes I'm exagerating, but I did have forum members wanting to come to my place and "verify" what I had done.  That arises a question in my mind, how the heck do the postal matches with the CBA work with that much mistrust? 

So yes I can understand how you post less often now which has become a trend now on almost all forums including this one. I thought maybe I'd sign up here and start anew and try to pass on some of the things I've learned and done.  It's proving very difficult. 

We'll see how this Browning does and if good I'll post more then one target.  If not I'll tell about what it did.

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GP Idaho posted this 11 August 2017

starmetal: This may be just a guilty by association kind of thing. Your partner did start this thread just to take a jab at another member. I for one, am interested in your work with the light bullets. I own the Lee 120gr. mould and the 113fn that are the same bullet just RN & FN I'll start a bit lower in charge and work up using a gas check and powder coated bullets and see how it works in my Savage model 10. Fast and low recoil are things I like in a cast bullet round. Thanks for posting. Gp

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Old Coot posted this 11 August 2017

    Starmetal;

It is and will always be difficult.  There are always nay-sayers out there who will not believe that anybody can do better than them (we seem to have fewer here than some other places).  I hope you enjoy the Forum.  Brodie

 

B.E.Brickey

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Starmetal posted this 11 August 2017

First thank you Old Coot for the kind and encouraging words. 

GP Idaho yes by all means start lower and work up, after all your rifle is different then mine.  I started lower then the 40 grains of H4198 that I used my AR 10 because I was a little apprehensive that it might create much more pressure do to having a 308W chamber instead of the NATO chamber and also because the AR 10 sucks up a lot of gas to operate itself.  I keep records with all my rifles and I also have a M1A National Match that I compare a lot to the AR 10.  Even the M1A gets higher velocities with the same loads then the AR 10, so you can see my concern with the Browning bolt action.  

Like I mentioned I'll post what the groups are with even they aren't better then the AR 10.  My AR 10 is a shooter.  It loves the 30 Silhouette bullet that 45 2.1 designed.  With match jacketed it's a single holer shooting better then many of my bolt action rifles.

45 2.1 posted the target and started this thread because I told him if I find that damn target I'd bet him he wouldn't post it. By God he did so I have to pay the consequences  of following and posting and telling you members what I did.  

I hope to get out soon to test the Browning, but darn if they aren't predicting rainy weather which we have gotten too much of already this spring and summer. 

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GP Idaho posted this 11 August 2017

I'm sort of jumping this thread but I'd like to pass along that Palmetto State Armory has a very good deal on now for AR 10s. Complete uppers with BC for $399.99 and lowers for 159.99. Have to see how things shake out this week but I'm sure thinking about it. Gp

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Old Coot posted this 11 August 2017

Starmetal:

If you want to get a rough idea of the pressure a load produces?  There is a direct relationship between pressure and velocity.  The higher the pressure the higher the velocity or the more you put behind it the faster it squirts out.  Makes sense huh.  Find a load in a manual that lists pressure using a similar weight bullet and powder.  The pressures will be approximate, but will give you an idea of what you are running.  The pressure for a cast bullet will always be lower than that of a jacketed of the same weight and powder charge, but it does give a better guestimate.

Personally I think that 130gr. bullet you used just fits your chamber throat perfectly reducing or preventing gas cutting and leading, it also would give better accuracy than one that did not fit quite as well.  Keep on reporting your good work, I find it an interesting read.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Larry Gibson posted this 14 August 2017

My previous post was just one of caution, as mentioned, because of the psi generated. Searcy mentions manual loads but the manual loads did not use a filler. To paraphrase 45 2.1 from a long ago post, different thread and different forum; think of a filler as decreasing case capacity. That is indeed what fillers do. They also raise pressures with any given load. As starmetal states a filler was used. I also used the same filler in the pressure test posted. Basically the same weight cast bullet was also used.....118 gr/119gr.

I should mention the test rifle has a chamber cut to minimum headspace with a M118 reamer which is 7.62 NATO not .308W. Also 7.62 cases were used (LC 72) as I diligently duplicated the load.

The test rifle has a 98 Mauser action. There was no hard bolt lift indicating excessive psi. The cases extracted easily and looked very much like the pictured one starmetal posted.

Should anyone care to duplicate starmetals loads I say have at it.....I did. Just mentioning to use caution is all because the pressures are there.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Scearcy posted this 14 August 2017

Starmetal, LMG

Thank you! This is  thought provoking discussion.

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 14 August 2017

Starmetal, LMG

Is the filler essential to maintain accuracy and avoid leading at these velocities?

Jim

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Starmetal posted this 14 August 2017

LMG is the rifle you used the M98 BYF action?

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Larry Gibson posted this 14 August 2017

LMG is the rifle you used the M98 BYF action?

No, note on the posted Oehler M43 data print out of the test it was a M1909 Argentine.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Starmetal posted this 14 August 2017

Scearcy, First don't be missiled by LMG's testing.  The SAAMI spec for the 308 Winchester (Not the 7.62 NATO) is 62 k. So for his loads tested he was right in that parameter.  I can assure you that the pressure is way different in my AR 10 because of: 1. It has a full fledged sloppy 7.62 NATO chamber, 2. My bullet is a different make/stye then one he used , so it has different bearing bans, different total bearing ban lenght, and a different alloy which is much softer then #2 water quenched., 3. Different brass, different bore, altogether totally different then what he is shooting and frankly he didn't put his strain gauge on my rifle when I shot that load so nobody can give you an exact pressure of my load in my rifle. 

Now the buffer. There is a difference between buffer and a filler. Just to make a brief short explanation a filler generally fills more the powder capacity in the sense of it's use. Think of the powder only filling 3/4's of the carrtride.  My powder load comes up the base of the neck.  The BPI shotshell buffer is a very light substance made of a polymer.  The .5cc that I used is a very small amount and when the bullet is seated it's mearly a thin little wad much like a card wad, which I doubt adds any significate pressure to the load. 

Now to anwer you question about why I used it. I used it to help keep some of the powder combustion heat off the base of the bullet. I don't have a problem with leading with the lube I make and use....ever!   I feel it is a myth to assume that one will get leading at HV with cast, providing the alloy is up the strength for the pressure, it is fitted well, and the lube is up to the task. 

Scearcy, in shotshell buffer loads where you fool the case into thinking it has a full load of powder, the buffer fills more of the case. An example would be that you bring the powder level up to within a dime thickness of the wall/shoulder joint. Then you fill the rest with the buffer, but it has to be to a point that has a slight bullet compression. Now the most important thing is that this only works on certain cartridges with a particular shoulder angle. The reason for that is that shoulder angle has to give a certain amount of resistance to the buffer.  You can see that a long slopping shoulder such as a 300 H&H magnum wouldn't work as well. Buffer does then a few things: 1. Fools the case in thinking it has a full powder charge, 2. Acts like a shock absorber so the bullet isn't hit as hard by the gas pressure, 3. A heat insulater (polymers are good for that)., 4. When there is enough of the buffer described by the aforementioned procedure to load it, it scours the bore and keeps it cleaner then when it's not used. Don't mistaken that it wears the bore in scouring it, that's only term I used.  Now with all that said the load we are dicussing in my AR 10 wasn't loaded in that manner. 

I really don't want to get into a discuss on buffer loads.  

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