Black powder bullet lube question

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GP Idaho posted this 15 January 2018

Good morning all. As I've posted, I have very little experience with shooting black powder or the various subs. I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject and like most things related to our cast bullet craft, opinions vary wildly. My question of the day is about bullet lubes. There seems to be concerns with petroleum products. I'm not sure if this stems from it being hard to clean out of the barrel with water or if there are other reasons to avoid such products. Some folks say that SPG is just the ticket and others say you can't give it away. I have a fair amount of home made Darr lube that is a mix of paraffin, Vaseline and RCBS case lube, but again the petroleum thing. The application will be for use in a fifty caliber inline and an over the round ball in a revolver cylinder. What would be your advice?  Thank you .  Gp

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GWarden posted this 15 January 2018

GP

When I started BP shooting; was breech seating the bullet and wiping between each shot, I got the best accuracy with SPG. I tried only a few other lubes, and the SPG was best in my rifle. Best bet might be to try some different lubes and see just what you get the best accuracy with.

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4060may posted this 15 January 2018

SPG never worked for me, went to Matthew's formula for awhile, then to the Synthetic oil route

BW, Mutton Tallow, Mobil 1 Synthetic 10w-40,  50/30/20 this was for GG bullets, both 40cal and 38cal

for RoundBall patch lube I used straight Canola oil

since then I went to Paper Patch and never looked back, you may want to try Chase Patching in the ML, bench guys at my club use it in their slug guns

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Larry Gibson posted this 15 January 2018

I found SPG to be and excellent BP lube.  However, I mostly use my own BP lube which is simple and easy to make.  I got the basic recipe from Spence Wolf.  Here's how I make it;


Beeswax/virgin Olive Oil Lube

In a small sauce pan filled about 1/3 with water place a small (pint size) Pyrex measuring cup with the handle over the edge of the pan. Pour in 4 oz of virgin olive oil and place on an electric stove to heat up. "Ounces" are by volume and I simply use the "ounce" scale on the side of the Pyrex cup.  I bring the water to just short of boiling (this set up is referred to as a “double boiler&rdquo. Add pure beeswax in small chunks until there is 9 oz of melted mixture in the Pyrex cup. I stir it with a wood tongue depressor, popsicle stick or whatever.  This makes a 4 – 5 part mix (olive oil to beeswax).  Of course larger amounts may be made but adjust the amounts to maintain the 4-5 part mix.

The melted lube may be poured into the reservoir of a lube/sizer. It will cool and harden in short order and is immediately useable. I leave the remainder of the mix in the Pyrex cup (wife made me buy her a new one after the first use) and store it in a gallon Ziploc bag (keeps it clean). When more lube is needed just put the Pyrex cup with lube into the sauce pan of water and melt it on the electric stove again. It is useable this way until the mix is depleted or you add more beeswax and olive oil (in the proper 4-5 proportion) to make more.

 

With some bullets I hand lube them while watching a good movie on TV. I cut the wood tongue depressor at a 45 degree angle on one end making a sort of knife edge. I scrape a small amount off the cold lube mix and roll it between my thumb and fore finger. The lube becomes soft and malleable very quickly. It is then rubbed into the lube grooves on the bullets. I can usually do a couple hundred 405 HBs,  REALs or Maxi-Balls during a John Wayne flick. A couple paper towels control any messy fingers to keep the wife happy. I prefer this method over the pan lube method as I find that pretty messy. However, this lube works well with the pan lube method.

I have found this simple and easy to make lube to be every bit as effective as any of the witchcraft brews often recommended. I’ve also found it as good as SPG. I’ve not found any difference in the bore fouling using this lube with BP as with any other lube. The fouling remains as soft for as long as the others. Accuracy with this lube is also the equal of any others. I recommend it because it is easy to make out of inexpensive components and it works.

I also put precut ML patches in a zip lock bag with a gob of the beeswax/olive oil lube and microwave until the lube melts.  I then knead the patches until they are soaked with the lube.  More lube is added if needed.  They are then great for use in my 45 and 50 cal MLs with RBs.

I have found this lube works quite well with handgun and rifle cast bullets having the older style larger lube grooves when used with smokeless powder.  I have thoroughly tested this lube upwards of 1800+ fps w/o any leading given a proper alloy and fit of bullet.  I take no credit for the method used to make neither this lube nor the ingredients as I got the basics from Spence Wolf some years ago.  Spence recommended a 50/50 mix as an all round choice.  The parts of beeswax to olive oil may be varied to fit the ambient temperature conditions when hunting.  More olive oil means a softer lube in colder climates.  In NE Oregon during the cold winter elk season I found 4 parts beeswax to 5 parts olive oil kept the lube soft down into freezing temperatures.  Spence’s 50/50 was fine for moderate climates but I found the 5 to 4 parts in the above recipe to work best in temperatures of 65 + degrees.  It is even a little soft down here in Arizona in 95 – 110 degrees though.  The consistence may vary a bit based on the beeswax used also.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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rhbrink posted this 15 January 2018

Good morning all. As I've posted, I have very little experience with shooting black powder or the various subs. I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject and like most things related to our cast bullet craft, opinions vary wildly. My question of the day is about bullet lubes. There seems to be concerns with petroleum products. I'm not sure if this stems from it being hard to clean out of the barrel with water or if there are other reasons to avoid such products. Some folks say that SPG is just the ticket and others say you can't give it away. I have a fair amount of home made Darr lube that is a mix of paraffin, Vaseline and RCBS case lube, but again the petroleum thing. The application will be for use in a fifty caliber inline and an over the round ball in a revolver cylinder. What would be your advice?  Thank you .  Gp

What are you planning to shoot in the 50 cal inline? Round ball patch? Sabot? Paper patch lead bullet? It makes a lot of difference same with the powder real black "the Mother of all powders" or some of that substitute "passing fancy" stuff? Black powder and lead bullets and I'm a DGL fan I never could get along with SPG. For revolvers bout anything soft enough to smear around the chamber mouths seems to work OK they don't seem to be too picky to me. Just keep the fouling soft enough to keep shooting all day.  

 

 

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GP Idaho posted this 15 January 2018

Thanks for the quick replies guys. Here's a little more information on how I'm getting started with black powder guns. For the inline (A Lyman break barrel 50cal. called Mustang) and a Uberti 1858 Remington revolver with the 44cal percussion cap and 45 Colt conversion cylinder. I've purchased the Lyman 370gr. Maxi and the Lee 320gr. REAL I also have a .490 RB mould but the rifle is a 1 in 28 twist so I'll just have to try and see what works. I also have some 44 and 45cal. sabots I'll likely start out with. Real black powder is hard to get locally here but Maven has given me contact information for "Addicted to Black Powder" and there's Grafs. So I'm headed in that direction. Until I get some black rounded up I've picked up a lb. each of 2F and 3F Triple Seven. This all being new to me I'll just have to see where it goes. Larry: That sounds even easier to make than the Darr's lube, thanks for that. You've always come through with useful information when I have questions. Well, the more information the better please chip in the rest of you. I'm happy for all the information I can get on this. Gp

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Larry Gibson posted this 15 January 2018

GP Idaho

"370gr. Maxi and the Lee 320gr. REAL I also have a .490 RB mould but the rifle is a 1 in 28 twist so I'll just have to try and see what works"

I shoot all three of those in my .50 cal TC Black Mountain Magnum.  It also has a 1-28" twist and is made for the magnum level charges.  Here's what it is capable of at 100 yards with the Maxi-Ball.  That's 6 shot's (1st down the clean barrel then 5 from the speed loaders) w/o cleaning or wiping between shots. The load is 90 gr(V) Triple 7 fffg.  Velocity runs 1550 fps.  I cast the Maxi's out of 16-1 alloy.

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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rhbrink posted this 15 January 2018

You can shoot a round ball and patch in a 28 inch twist but you need to load and patch very tight. I have a Green Mountain drop in barrel that I bought to shoot paper patch in and that shoots great so curious I tried a round ball and I would have to look up the load but I'm thinking that it was a .495 or .500 ball with a heavy patch and up to 70 grains of 2FF Goex would shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards over open sights. Not any record setting accuracy but good enough for typical deer hunting in my country. If you have any young-uns around and want to introduce them to black powder drop the charge down to 35 grains and it's a hoot to shoot. Very mild recoil and more than accurate enough for busting tin cans and dirt clods or whatever. 

Good luck!

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Larry Gibson posted this 15 January 2018

rhbrink has it right with RBs in the 28" twist barrels.  A tight fitting patch is definitely needed, especially if you push the RBs fast.  At 1785 fps I got a large ragged hole of 1.5" or so at 50 yards and 3" groups at 100 yards with 5 shot groups.  When I added 10 more gr(V) of fffg powder the velocity went up to 1891 fps with 3" groups at 50 yards and 16"+ groups at 100 yards!!!!!

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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frnkeore posted this 15 January 2018

I tried a few lubes, from the late 80's up until the early 90's. Because I used Darr lube, at that time, I tried adding equal weghts of Crisco and BW to the Darr. So, it's 25% of BW, Vaseline, Crisco & paraffin, with 2 table spoons of the old RCBS case lube. 

These are my 200 yard match results, using that lube, in a breech seated, BP rifle.

Frank

 

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BigMan54 posted this 16 January 2018

GP,

I grew up using CRISCO. Revolver Cylinders & rifle patches smeared with it. Got a T/C HAWKEN in the late '80's and was given a block of SPG lube. Worked WONDERFULLY, gave better accuracy than the CRISCO ever had.  I started using T/C "Bore Butter", (non petroleum/food grade product) when it came out, about the same time. The squeeze tubes could be fitted with screw on adapter that allowed you to push your bullets through and squeeze the tube to lube them. .45cal, .50cal, .54cal & .58cal . I used the .45cal to lube .459 rifle bullets for my Black Powder side matches in SASS. That tube luber adapter is the easiest BEST way I've found to lube MAXI-BALLS. I Have the same LYMAN mold as you do in .50cal. My .54cal MAXI-BALL is an aluminum T/C, probably italian made.  I store my cast/lubed MAXI-BALLS in the fridge out in the garage. And if you don't have any of the nifty factory storage/retail packages that you saved from shooting that rifle the first couple of shooting sessions. Then the big fancy tobacco tins make the best darn storage containers. If ya want a couple/three, shoot me a PM. 

Both T/C Bore Butter & LYMAN Black Powder Gold(non petroleum) came in hollow sticks for a Lube-Sizer. Made Black Powder Cartridge loading a heck of a lot easier.

More than ya wanted to know right?

Here's how I managed to get through a match shooting a pair of Cap&Ball 1860's:

.25gr 3f, Ox-Yoke(dry-lubed) Wonder Wad, .451ball, top off cylinder with Lube. Fire revolver.  Wipe down outside of revolver  with rag damp with cleaner. Use nipple pick hard. Load as before without topping off cylinder with lube. use nipple pick again before capping. Fire revolver, repeat wiping, picking, loading, shooting.

After 3 cylinders have been fired: breakdown revolver into 3 parts: barrel, cylinder, frame. Run cleaning rod through/into cylinder & barrel with cleaning solution, then dry patch. Blast GUN-SCRUBBER into front of each chamber so it runs out nipple. I  think every bit of it evaporates, so no petroleum.  Wipe down all 3 parts with cleaning rag. Lightly lube ratchet & cylinder pin. Reassemble Revolver. The 1858's are even a bit easier because of the less teardown. My UBERTI'S take .454 balls though. By the way I DIPPER CAST MY MAXI-BALLS & Round Ball.

Cleaning solution: equal parts; Mineral Oil, 91% Isopropyl Alcohol, Hydrogen Peroxide.

LUBE, I have used 4 different Non-petroleum lubes. CRISCO, SPG, Thompson/Center BORE BUTTER & LYMAN Black Powder Gold. I prefer any of the last three for Cartridge Loading because they won't "run" in the heat as easily as CRISCO. And they come in hollow sticks for Lube-Sizer use.

I have plenty of T/C Bore Butter in hollow sticks/ tubes because I got a killer deal. And I have maybe 3/4 of a lb block of SPG. I use very little these days, so I won't worry about buying more.

Finally to answer your question: I CAN'T TELL A NICKEL'S DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE THREE. I shot SASS Black Powder for a year, alternating between Cartridge Revolvers & Cap&Ball. In .45Colt & .44WCF. If ya want help with .45Colt BP loads,  just PM. 

Buy what's ever cheapest or more readily available. All three will give you good service. Or make your own. I knew one COWBOY SHOOTER who used beeswax & CRISCO, 50/50. I'd rather use my beeswax for making smokeless lube.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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R. Dupraz posted this 16 January 2018

GP wrote,

"There seems to be concerns with petroleum products. I'm not sure if this stems from it being hard to clean out of the barrel with water or if there are other reasons to avoid such products. Some folks say that SPG is just the ticket and others say you can't give it away. I have a fair amount of home made Darr lube that is a mix of paraffin, Vaseline and RCBS case lube, but again the petroleum thing. The application will be for use in a fifty caliber inline and an over the round ball in a revolver cylinder. What would be your advice?  Thank you" .  Gp

The unscientific short answer to your question is that BP fouling is hygroscopic. In other words, it attracts moisture and can be easily dissolved in water.  Petroleum products have no effect on BP or it's fouling. Just creates a mess with no protection.

I write from the position of an unrepentant traditionalist with the real black in muzzle loading rifles, revolvers, the BPC rifle and double barrel percussion scatter guns. Along with some hunting with the above, most of my shooting has been on the range and in matches where multiple shots are fired during a day.  

The common statement often repeated when discussing BP lube is that a certain lube "keeps the fouling soft". On the face of it, the perception is then that a dry patch only can be shoved up or down the bore and the fouling can be easily pushed out, leaving the bore bright and shinny clean and if mine doesn't do that, it's not working. In my experience with the long BP guns I have never found this to be true. However, the exception is the percussion revolver where multiple shots can be continually fired with accuracy  if the lube is put  in the cylinder throats ahead of the ball. The real test of a BP lube is to see if the gun still maintains it's accuracy when the ambient temp. is high and the humidity is low because there is a direct relationship there. 

I know nothing about inlines an not much about the modern BP substitutes But the lube that I have used with success for ;years is a simple 50/50 mixture of pure bee's wax and olive oil with a dash of lanolin thrown in for rifles. And pure neat's foot oil for shotgun cushion wads. 

While I have never tried SPG in my ML's, it did work in the BPCR once. Common old salt free Crisco works as good as anything when smeared in the revolver throats. With the inline, just do some experimenting to find out what works the best.  

And, tradition strikes again. The finest lube for percussion ML rifles that I have ever used is pure rendered bear fat. Now who would have ever guessed. 

  

 

 

 

  

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GP Idaho posted this 16 January 2018

Thanks again guys for all of the replies. I've contacted a fellow member over at Boolits and ask for a small brick of Bee's wax that he has for sale (2 1/2 lbs.)  From the advice from above I'll make up some of the BW and olive oil lube. I may add a bit of lanolin if I can find some, seems it may be helpful. Also, I'll buy a couple tubes of SPG to try in the BPC's as I'd still like to use black in the 45 Colt conversion cylinder. Thank you Richard for mentioning the bear fat. Bear hunting is somewhat of a big thing here in Idaho and I have friends that are avid in that pursuit. I've pretty much given up on all that and as a personal thing, I like bears, in their proper spot of course.  They can be unhandy in a chicken coupe or around the bird feeder. That aside, it shouldn't be hard to come by some tallow.  It may take a bit to get all of the accouterments together but I feel I have a better idea going forward with all the advice you've all kindly shared. Thanks. Gp

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R. Dupraz posted this 16 January 2018

Kind of figured that the bear oil would get your attention.

 

Back when I was shooting the BPCR, there were some rumors floating around that the secret formula of SPG was ;nothing more than a lanolin mixture. Don't know.  I don't know if the lanolin is necessary or not but I just add it anyway.

Not the final word by any means, just some things that have worked for me over the years. And will continue unless or until I find something better.  

 

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Dale53 posted this 16 January 2018

I competed in Black Powder Cartridge matches for fifteen years (until I lost the vision in my right eye). I started out using SPG lube with excellent results. Make no mistake, SPG is excellent lube for black powder cartridge rifles and handguns. However, when pan lubing a large quantity of rifle bullets using cake pans, it requires a good bit of lube. SPG is not cheap when used in quantity.  A local successful match shooter, Gary Byrge, suggested I make my own lube, and gave me a slab of Emmert's home mix to use. It worked just like SPG but cost a fraction as much. The original formula was 50% pure natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola oil. 

The only problem, I found, is that it had a season's shelf life when bullets were lubed and stored. I eventually replaced the Canola oil with an equal amount of Anhydrous Lanolin. Shelf life was extended greatly with the same, excellent, results. So, I call the lube, "Modified" Emmert's. The amounts are calculated from liquid volume. I use a large Pyrex cup as a double boiler measure (just put the Pyrex cup in a pan of boiling water to melt the lube. If you overheat it, it is ruined (BELIEVE this, friends). The double boiler avoids over heating. The large Pyrex cup is used as a container for the lube. After pan lubing, I just put it in a large plastic zip lock bag to keep if from dust and dirt.

Using this lube and a home cast 30/1 lead/tin bullet I have shot ten shot groups at 500 yards in eight inches off a rest (with a high powered scope). I rigged my BPCR up so I could easily put the scope on to test and remove it for the iron sights when competing (high grade vernier peep sight rear, and globe front sight with interchangeable inserts).

Using this lube in my Ruger Bisley Vaquero in .45 Colt, using 3f Swiss (case full compressed 1/16" when the 30/1 lead/tin Lyman 452664 home cast bullet), I could shoot my handgun 70 times before cleaning. After a five minute cleaning job, on the range, with Friendship Speed Juice, I was ready for another 70 shots.

I can recommend either SPG or Emmert's modified for critical use of either BPCR or BPC pistol without question. Many, many competitors will agree with me.

FWIW

Dale53

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tlkeizer posted this 23 January 2018

Greetings,

I have shot a little with black powder cartridge using a couple original 45-70's.  Like R. Dupraz, I too use only black powder (I will try the bear fat for lube if I ever get a bear).  I have also shot muzzle loaders since the late 70's, and use only black powder when available.  I used Pyrodex a few times, and prefer BP.  Now, on to lubes.

I use SPG for the 45-70's, and pan lube.  Yes, it can get messy, but I lube using a muffin/cupcake pan made of silicon or whatever the stuff is that keeps the pan flexible.  I am limited to about 7 bullets per "muffin", so at 7X6 per batch don't do a lot at a time.  What I found out is that the removal of the bullets from the lube is dependent on the temperature and setting of the lube after pouring.  Too hot, a mess of lube coming off the bullet, too cold and the bullet does not want to come out easily.  After doing this a few times I can now pretty much just push the bullet out of the lube with all the lube in the grooves.  The cakes with bullets come out of the form really easy for pushing the bullets out of the lube.  If I have a few where I misjudged the temp, I just roll the lube on with my fingers.  If the lube still feels really warm and slick, wait a few minutes.  Also, don't put the bullets too close to each other.

For the muzzle loaders with round balls I have about a tube and a half left of old CVA Patch Grease that I use.  I really like that stuff as it has worked for me very nice for both deer and caribou.  I cut my patching into strips, smear some on along the strip, wind the strip up and work the lube into all the weaving, then put the roll into either an old film container or test strip container and cut off what I need as I use it.

For maxi-balls or mine-balls I have used both SPG and patch grease, pretty much a wash for me for accuracy and use depends on how much I want to keep my fingers clean, usually using the patch grease.  The mine-ball is for the .58 and the maxi-ball for the .45 (and never have been particularly impressed with the maxi-ball in my CVA Kentucky .45 which is probably due to twist more than anything.

Anyway, FWIW, my experiences.  Haven't used anything else except some Crisco a long time ago.  Personally have not seen a need to change yet, my few deer and caribou (except for one I shot over this year) have fallen over after the smoke cleared.

TK

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GP Idaho posted this 23 January 2018

Hello Terry: Thanks for chipping in. Good to hear from you and I hope all's well up in Ak.  First outing with the new toys yesterday. I fired some cap and ball out of the 1858 Remington and some BP 45 Colt and 357 mag. using chamber adapters for my 20ga. shotgun, also both 20ga. shotshells and used a Short Lane 209 adapter to load the shotgun like a musket.  BP with sheeps wool wad, home cast #4 buck and a little more wool to hold the shot in place. Everything worked well and clean-up was easier than I expected. I tried both BP (Wano) and Hodgdon Triple 7 and in this small sampling they seemed very much alike. The T7 was cleaner burning in the 45 Colt cartridges. Accouterments are coming together. Yesterday was a good morning as I received 5 lbs. of BP, a brick of BP lube and a mould from Ed H. The BP lube I found on E-Bay and is White Label BP-01. I've had good luck with other lubes Lar's sells so thought I'd give it a go.  I picked up some olive oil and bee's wax is on the way so I can make the lube Larry G. posted. Thanks again everyone, it's good to have you guys helping me out with this new to me endeavor. Gp

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GP Idaho posted this 25 January 2018

 Things are coming together nicely. The brick of bee's wax arrived in this mornings mail. I made up a batch of olive oil and bee's wax lube following Larry Gibsons instructions. Turned out great and so easy to do. Thank you Larry. I had an odd thought this afternoon. As you may have noticed I'm somewhat fond of powder coated bullets. I only own one lube-sizer, a Saeco. I've always liked the Saeco and it's filled with White Label BAC (my favorite rifle lube) I thought it might be good to have another to put black powder lube in. STICKER SHOCK guess it will be pan lube for this new endeavor. I didn't remember the Saeco's costing THAT much. I'll keep my eye on the sales threads here and at Boolits. Well thanks again guys for your help I'm being prompted to mark this as solved so guess I'll do just that (What's up with that? Something new?) Gp

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BigMan54 posted this 25 January 2018

GP,

I understand "sticker shock" after not having to do any "buying of components or equipment" myself for almost 10yrs, it is a bit of a shock.

I've used the LYMAN 45 and 450 Lubi-sizers  and the RCBS (1st version) and had a SAECO, 'til it was stolen. I like the SAECO best too. But don't discount the  old LYMAN 450.  Sometimes you can find them cheap on ebay. And replacement parts are still available from LYMAN. And you don't need a heater for BP LUBE. just make sure if you buy a used sizer die for a LYMAN 450 or any RCBS that it has a rubber O-ring at the top of the die.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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R. Dupraz posted this 25 January 2018

They do come up on E-bay occasionally. One black, one smokeless

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R. Dupraz posted this 25 January 2018

Pan lubing tools

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