BS-Neck tension

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  • Last Post 24 August 2018
joeb33050 posted this 11 August 2018

 

Neck tension

 

There’s a test in TFS on this, John A. knows where. Neck tension affecting accuracy with < ~.75” groups may happen, but if so, the test results are well hidden.

 

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Geargnasher posted this 12 August 2018

What matters most is CONSISTENT BULLET PULL, and it matters a great deal. I can create flyers 2 or 3 inches outside of the group, on demand, with rifle calibers feom .22 to .30, simply by throwing in a cartridge that required noticeably less effort to seat the bullet.

That said, the inconsistency is relative to POI, not necessarily to group size. Sorted by seating effort, it is possible to shoot several equal, or nearly equal, groups with different points of impact.

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joeb33050 posted this 12 August 2018

What matters most is CONSISTENT BULLET PULL, and it matters a great deal. I can create flyers 2 or 3 inches outside of the group, on demand, with rifle calibers feom .22 to .30, simply by throwing in a cartridge that required noticeably less effort to seat the bullet. That said, the inconsistency is relative to POI, not necessarily to group size. Sorted by seating effort, it is possible to shoot several equal, or nearly equal, groups with different points of impact.
YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE. WRITE ONE, YOU SEEM TO HAVE A LOTTA OPINIONS. ANY Data?

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Geargnasher posted this 12 August 2018

I don't have access to the article, and am responding to your BS topic in general with the conclusions of 25 years of my data. Anyone can easily duplicate it.

If you don't believe me, prove it wrong, with your own tests.

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John Alexander posted this 13 August 2018

"What matters most is CONSISTENT BULLET PULL, and it matters a great deal. I can create flyers 2 or 3 inches outside of the group, on demand, with rifle calibers feom .22 to .30, simply by throwing in a cartridge that required noticeably less effort to seat the bullet."

Geargnasher

With all due respect, I think you are going to have a very hard time showing that consistent bullet pull "matters a great deal" much less "matters most".  In fact, think it is going to be hard to show that it matters at all.

I could say that in my 40+ years of experimenting with cast bullets I have never been able to show that consistent bullet pull matters one whit in the type of rifles used in CBA competition.  But that shouldn't carry any more weight than your statement that it causes huge fliers. Neither amounts to much more than anecdotal evidence without a well run experiment to back it up.

Fortunately, I don't have to do that because Gerry Bottiiger has already done it with an elaborate well designed set of experiments that showed that neck tensions that vary by near 100% had no effect of either accuracy or muzzle velocity.  In effect accepting the challenge in your post above 5 years before you made it. Gerry's article was published in TFS #223 and 224 in 2003, and no one has refuted his finding in the intervening years. His two articles can be found in the CD for Fouling Shots from 2008 - 2015 for sale at our website for $14.95. One of the advantages of being a CBA member is being able to read such articles when they are published.

If you would PM me your email address I would be happy to send you a copy of a later Fouling Shot article in which I reviewed Gerry's work and expanded on the subject -- at no cost.

John

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 August 2018

my obsessive mj benchrest buddies assure me that the brass neck expands before the bullet moves much ... and so i have this mental image of ....

at the shot the tight or loose neck tension doesn't count anymore... and the bullet is just left there, in mid-air ... free to flop or twist however the gases push it .... 

so maybe we should make the turned neck a very tight fit in the chamber :::   same od as the chamber neck id ... the case neck at firing does guide the bullet .... almost like a breech-seated bullet ........ ( dangerous? ... probably not with lead bullets and loads worked up with this arrangement in mind . )

***************

the above is a recurring mental image i harbor .... not sure if it has merit ... but after i get some other projects done i am betting a match barrel and about 3 days of shop time on it.  probably 6mm ....  what could go worng ?

ken  

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pat i. posted this 14 August 2018

I think Dave Lee and maybe a few other guys out west did or do use an interference fit like you're describing. I could be wrong but don't think so and if they did/do you can't deny the results.

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John Alexander posted this 14 August 2018

Bob Birmley's fairly recent articles on "Going for Records or some such title talks of this method. One part of the article that I don't disagree with.  And Pat is right. Dave Lee and his disciples were hard to beat and still hold records.

John

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Larry Gibson posted this 15 August 2018

I prefer to use .002 - .003 neck tension simply because it holds the GC'd bullets securely in the case neck. I've not found that neck tension alone can be attributed to accuracy enhancement.  I have found that too much neck tension can cause damage to the bullet during seating, especially PB'd cast bullets of softer alloy, during seating by swaging the bullet down and causing damage to the nose from the seating stem.  Also too much neck tension with GC'd bullets can cause excessive run out as the GC expands the case neck.

Sizing to minimal .002 - .003 tension also reduces the working of the case necks giving longer case life and more firings before annealing may become necessary.  I used bushing or collet dies and proper size expanders in M dies to achieve that amount of neck tension.

LMG  

Concealment is not cover.........

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John Alexander posted this 15 August 2018

Larry is right, of course, there are all kinds of ways that the WRONG NECK TENSION can cause all kinds of problems both to little and too much neck tension.

Gearnasher's statement was that shot to shot VARIATION in neck tension was very important. Bottiger's research with a combination averaging very close to .5 MOA has blown that claim out of the water.

The most interesting thing about variation in neck tension is that people continue to think it is important in spite of it being debunked as completely as it could possibly be. No wonder we haven't progressed in this century.

John

 

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 August 2018

... i find it interesting that in mj benchrest ... some midwest top shooters are working with a cartridge ... that has almost no neck at all ...... and are doing very well with it ...  this might be worth a go in cast shooting ...  the idea is that the case is located by pushing the tapered shoulder against the tapered front chamber  ... and then we can get creative with the freebore and throat..... mainly make it very snug .....

kinda like the often botched effort to push a tapered bullet against a tapered throat.  while better than a straight throat in theory .... there really isn't a lot of rifling to taper .... 1 degree per side only grabs about a quarter inch of the bullet ...

i need one of those " limitless " brain pills to consider the ramifications of a neckless case ...  but worth a mild migrain i spose ...

ken

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pat i. posted this 15 August 2018

I wonder if after a couple of thousandths adding more tension does anything at all. The bullet acts as an expander so everything after what's required to grip it might be wasted effort.

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OU812 posted this 16 August 2018

more neck tension will help chamber a snug fitting bore riding bullet. not enough tension could cause bullet to slip back into case and not chamber deep enough.

I wonder what type of cast bullet Bottiger was using during his test...bore rider, taper bumped bore rider, taper bumped loverin...?

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joeb33050 posted this 16 August 2018

I don't see any change in mv or accuracy with varying neck tension; and I don't understand why neck tension is measured in thousandths of an inch. If a set of cases is neck sized and then pushed in/out of an M die, there is a wide variation in force required to get the neck on and off the spud. Diameter AND hardness of the neck combine to determine the force required at the M die. This with necks brushe3d.  Neck turning and annealing may reduce the variation. I have had instances of seating a long bullet where the seating bumped up the shoulder/body area, changing bolt closing force.

 

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RicinYakima posted this 16 August 2018

"I don't understand why neck tension is measured in thousandths of an inch. "

Very few of us have a way to measure the force required to push the bullet into the case neck, I've never seen such a scale in the home reloading shop. But we all have micrometers to conveniently measure before and after seating neck diameter. I know it is not a very good accurate way to do it, but it is fast and easy.

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John Alexander posted this 16 August 2018

 

 

 

Pat asks:
"I wonder if after a couple of thousandths adding more tension does anything at all. The bullet acts as an expander so everything after what's required to grip it might be wasted effort."
========

Mike Barrett has done experiments to find out and he found just what you expected beyond a point sizing smaller to get more tension does nothing at all. The bullet simply expands the case neck as it is seated. 

According to Mike (a rare CB shooter who tries to find answers instead of taking somebody's word for it) claims it is wasted effort.

John

 

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John Alexander posted this 16 August 2018

OU812 sez:

more neck tension will help chamber a snug fitting bore riding bullet. not enough tension could cause bullet to slip back into case and not chamber deep enough.

 

I wonder what type of cast bullet Bottiger was using during his test...bore rider, taper bumped bore rider, taper bumped loverin...?

=======

You are right too much neck tension or too little can cause a multitude of problems. I discussed them at length in my article in TFS #240. On the other hand, shot to shot VARIATION in neck tension, which Bottiger investigated has NO EFFECT on either accuracy or muzzle velocity. Why we continue to get our knickers in a twist about this instead of worrying about some factor that may be real is a mystery to me. 

I believe Bottiger was using the Ardito approach with bumpted Eagan MX4ARD bullets but I haven't read his article recently

Anybody serious about this topic should go back and reread Bottiger's article if for nothing else as how an experiment should be run.

By the way Bottiger used a device to measure the actual force to seat bullets not just the ID neck diameter.

John

 

 

 

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Ed Harris posted this 18 August 2018

In fixed ammo for magazine feed I want the expander plug 0.002" less than bullet diameter so the bullet has a snug fit.

Greater interference than that will deform soft bullets.

Less tension might cause bullets to telescope during feed cycle.

But in boltguns which are single-loaded I seat bullets to hard contact with throat and origin of rifling and neck tension does not affect shot-start pressure.

Larry, John and Joe all have valid points.  Depends upon the circumstances.

But I don't care to shoot competition anymore. I tinker with my own rifles to get the results that I want.

I have learned a few things over the years, and will share, but feel free to ignore me, I really don't care.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Paul Pollard posted this 20 August 2018

In January, 2013, I did a test trying to hold the bullet at a consistent OAL. Previous testing had shown that an OAL of 2.210" was the best place to seat for accuracy. This is the 6ppc with the Eagan MX2-243 bullet. As can be seen from the chart, the loosest bushing at 0.261 was enough to hold the OAL at 2.210. The start length and end length were checked on chambering and as tension increased, the bullet could be held at a longer length. This test was not a test for accuracy at different tension, but to find where the bullet quit moving deeper. I could probably use the 261 bushing, but decided on the 259 Nitride bushing. Note the differences in neck diameters with dies marked the same. I also found that trying to jam the bullet deeper into the rifling was counter productive.

 

Bushing Chart and Neck Tension

 

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Geargnasher posted this 20 August 2018

Larry is right, of course, there are all kinds of ways that the WRONG NECK TENSION can cause all kinds of problems both to little and too much neck tension.

Gearnasher's statement was that shot to shot VARIATION in neck tension was very important. Bottiger's research with a combination averaging very close to .5 MOA has blown that claim out of the water.

The most interesting thing about variation in neck tension is that people continue to think it is important in spite of it being debunked as completely as it could possibly be. No wonder we haven't progressed in this century.

John

No, John, the reason why you haven't progressed in this century is because of myopia, group think, and lack of curiosity.

You and others have gone far out of your way to prove my statement "wrong", and not a single one of you ever stopped to ask, "What is it that Geargnasher is doing differently that would cause the uniformity of neck tension to matter in his shooting, and why would he choose a loading technique that introduces that variable?"

I'm tired of your resistance to learning, so have fun doing it the same old way and I'll get back to more productive endeavors.

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pat i. posted this 20 August 2018

Anyway....Paul I expect the bullet to seat deeper into the rifling when using a tighter button but wonder if once the bullet was seated and the case expanded if it would take any more force to get it moving no matter what size button you used. My gut tells me it wouldn't. Could be wrong though.

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John Alexander posted this 20 August 2018

No, John, the reason why you haven't progressed in this century is because of myopia, group think, and lack of curiosity.

Geargnasher,

That is a pretty ugly list character traits to lay on CBA shooters by a non-member who as far as I know has never had his shooting results printed in CBA match reports.  The CBA shooters I know are a pretty respectable bunch who share their knowledge freely both in TFS and on this forum. They also have the courage to show up at matches where their groups are measured by others and if their groups don’t match the results they have claimed on the internet that’s just the way it is.

Group think?? Virtually all my TFS articles are challenging the conventional wisdom about cast bullets. Please look up the meaning of "group think". 

As far as “lack of curiosity” I have offered to send you an article that that would show any open-minded person that your belief in the importance of variation in neck tension to accuracy is wrong and explain why -- all at no cost.  So far you apparently haven’t been curious enough to send your address.

==================

You and others have gone far out of your way to prove my statement "wrong".

==

That’s because it was wrong.  Having misleading claims on the forum without a rebuttal is not helpful if we are going to learn anything. If you didn’t agree, an intelligent response would have been to submit evidence that you were right, not attack the character of those who disagree with you.

Learning is the major reason the CBA offers this forum.  If enough open-minded shooters participate we will all learn things we didn’t know. It is not a place for grand claims that aren’t verified and can’t be questioned.  If you don’t like others disagreeing with you and citing evidence you are wrong, you are in the wrong place.

I'm tired of your resistance to learning, so have fun doing it the same old way and I'll get back to more productive endeavors.

While you are looking up group-think you may want to check out “irony” as well.

John

 

 

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shootcast posted this 21 August 2018

I don’t shoot as well but have experimented with neck tension. Jerry’s artical took a great deal of tIme experimenting. One thing I would add I have read in reloading manuals. Since neck tension can be from a slip fit to a rather tight force the powder used can have a effect. Jerry test was with one powder and one bulletin and one firearm. My test showed loose necks and fast powders are better than loose necks and slow powders. To each there own but after lots of trial and error I believe you need enough to hold the bullet firmly but not excessively.

 

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Shopdog posted this 21 August 2018

Probably shouldn't respond,oh well....

Don't confuse,... tension.... friction(seating).... hold.

K&M,21st century and some other co( CRS) has been making bullet seating force gauge equipment for a loooong time. It's been pretty well documented in long range JB shooting that batching rounds with very low ES on these gauges shows up on paper.

Just an observation, what gets this discussion derailed is..... does a bullet move forward at the moment of ignition.... OR ..... case neck expands cutting all bullet to case "ties" free. Solve this,and it may help show what once held dear,may not represent the full spectrum of engineering available at any one point.

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Paul Pollard posted this 21 August 2018

8-21-18.

This morning while sizing cases, I took some more notes. Neck thickness is .009.

 With .261 bushing: Fired case neck measured .2634; sized, it measured .2612. With .245 diameter bullet seated, .2634.

With .259 Nitride bushing: Fired case neck measured .2632; sized, it measured .2585. With .245 diameter bullet seated, .2632.

Unsized case at .2634 neck diameter with bullet seated measured .2635. On this case, the bullet pushed back to 2.198 when chambered. The sized cases held at 2.210.

Here's something odd. I have been playing with the Dave Lee method of friction fit on the neck when chambering. Fireform, turn the neck a little oversize, then seat a bullet to check if it chambers. Sand with 600 grit paper until it fits. Shoot and do not size, punch out primer, reprime, recharge, seat bullet. The case and bullet will chamber snugly.

This morning, I figured it would be a great idea to size the case in the .259 bushing and seat a bullet. It didn't chamber. I did this 3 times with the same result. I selected another case and seated a bullet without sizing; it chambered. The unsized cases with bullet measured right at .2650 and chambered. The sized cases with bullet measured .2655 and would not chamber.

Any ideas why sizing the case would not let it chamber? It seems spring back may be at work.

 

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Paul Pollard posted this 21 August 2018

In the articles in The Fouling Shot, which I re-read, the following things were done to improve accuracy. 

Cases were sorted by weight, neck thickness measured, cases were INDEXED in the chamber, bullets were inspected and weight sorted, sized and INDEXED, powder charges were weighed.

Which matter and which don't? Is this Better Shooting or BS?

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joeb33050 posted this 21 August 2018

8-21-18.

This morning while sizing cases, I took some more notes. Neck thickness is .009.

 With .261 bushing: Fired case neck measured .2634; sized, it measured .2612. With .245 diameter bullet seated, .2634.

With .259 Nitride bushing: Fired case neck measured .2632; sized, it measured .2585. With .245 diameter bullet seated, .2632.

Unsized case at .2634 neck diameter with bullet seated measured .2635. On this case, the bullet pushed back to 2.198 when chambered. The sized cases held at 2.210.

Here's something odd. I have been playing with the Dave Lee method of friction fit on the neck when chambering. Fireform, turn the neck a little oversize, then seat a bullet to check if it chambers. Sand with 600 grit paper until it fits. Shoot and do not size, punch out primer, reprime, recharge, seat bullet. The case and bullet will chamber snugly.

This morning, I figured it would be a great idea to size the case in the .259 bushing and seat a bullet. It didn't chamber. I did this 3 times with the same result. I selected another case and seated a bullet without sizing; it chambered. The unsized cases with bullet measured right at .2650 and chambered. The sized cases with bullet measured .2655 and would not chamber.

Any ideas why sizing the case would not let it chamber? It seems spring back may be at work.

 Only an idea. I can neck size or seat bullets so that the body/shoulder junction is enlarged and the case won't chamber/easily. It took me a while to figure out. Will the case that won't chamber, chamber with the bullet out?

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Shopdog posted this 21 August 2018

OK Paul,I will take a stab at,"which matter and which don't".

First off,ain't much gonna matter if the bullet is undersized or,in anyway "under" developed. This is why bullet fit rises to the top so often in these examinations. It can be looked at as a hierarchy of sorts..... starting with the fit and then diminishing returns as we go down the list.

On a positive side note however,doing certain case prep chores are eliminating that particular potential from effecting other,potentially offending ops. An example;gonna be pretty hard to double charge if you're weighing each. So while it may seem to be a waste of time.... it depends on the specifics or ops "downstream".

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OU812 posted this 21 August 2018

I can see why neck tension would not matter when shooting cast bullets because the bullet should always be chambered to stop against the throat. This resistance makes neck tension null. 

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John Alexander posted this 21 August 2018

It is apparently impossible to keep the two types of questions about neck tension separated in this thread and because they are quite different questions the discussion degrades to mass confusion. I think we could confuse fewer shooters if we kept the two questions separated into two threads.

Question 1. What is the right neck tension for various situations? This is an important question. The wrong answer can lead to various ills as noted above plus; shaving lead, bending the bullet, upsetting the nose of the bullet to a larger size, possibly affecting combustion, excessive pressure from bullet being set back in case while in magazine by recoil of previous shots.  The list of possibilities is very long and some of them can ruin your day. More than half of the posts above are in answer to this question whether it was asked or not.

Question 2. Will the shot to shot variation in neck tension affect accuracy or muzzle velocity? This was the question I thought this thread was about because of the first two posts. This question has been answered and the answer is no, it doesn’t affect accuracy or muzzle velocity.  it is only worth discussing because a lot of shooters still believe it is important, write that it is important, tell new shooters it is important, and spread information that has been disproven, thus almost certainly untrue because there are no known studies showing it might be true.

Aside from Bottiger's excellent work which should have been enough to kill this particular Zombie you can easily reach the same conclusion by thinking about the relative magnitudes of the forces involved.

The forces required to seat a cast bullet without damage are in the range of near zero to maybe 50 to 70 pounds. The force needed to push it back out are almost certainly less -- maybe even zero as pointed out by Ken and others repeatedly. At any rate pretty small and totally insignificant compared to force of the expanding gas which for a 30 caliber bullet will be in the range of 1,500 pounds to 4,500 pounds depending on the load.

Any shot to shot variation in the tiny force that neck tension could possibly provide will be overwhelmed by the much much larger variation in the force doing the pushing. As a math major might say "it is in the round off error and insignificant. 

John

 

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45 2.1 posted this 21 August 2018

Question 2. Will the shot to shot variation in neck tension affect accuracy or muzzle velocity? This was the question I thought this thread was about because of the first two posts. This question has been answered and the answer is no, it doesn’t affect accuracy or muzzle velocity. Then why do cartridges with a bullet that was harder to seat usually shoot out of the group? I've seen that quite a bit and remove those from the lot. it is only worth discussing because a lot of shooters still believe it is important, write that it is important, tell new shooters it is important, and spread information that has been disproven, thus almost certainly untrue because there are no known studies showing it might be true.

Aside from Bottiger's excellent work I haven't seen you say exactly what he was doing for a proof.... can you quantify exactly what he did for all of us since you say it's true? Some proof, not speculation since you made a definitive statement on the matter? which should have been enough to kill this particular Zombie you can easily reach the same conclusion by thinking about the relative magnitudes of the forces involved. Rationalizing is not proof. If it is true, then a scientific or mathematical analysis should be shown (this is what Joe is trying to do).

The forces required to seat a cast bullet without damage are in the range of near zero to maybe 50 to 70 pounds. The force needed to push it back out are almost certainly less -- maybe even zero as pointed out by Ken and others repeatedly. At any rate pretty small and totally insignificant compared to force of the expanding gas which for a 30 caliber bullet will be in the range of 1,500 pounds to 4,500 pounds depending on the load.

Any shot to shot variation in the tiny force that neck tension could possibly provide will be overwhelmed by the much much larger variation in the force doing the pushing. As a math major might say "it is in the round off error and insignificant. As an engineer, I've found rounding gives an imprecise answer in real world situations and can cost big money to correct. Hard concrete numbers are hard to argue with...... Math has proofs for assumptions.... until proven with hard numbers, they are just assumptions.

John

 

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pat i. posted this 21 August 2018

Proof???? Did I hear someone mention proof???? What a novel idea! 

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 August 2018

Pat

 

Surely you jest, why show any now......we've not seen any proof from them for 13+ years that I recall......

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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John Alexander posted this 22 August 2018

Question 2. Will the shot to shot variation in neck tension affect accuracy or muzzle velocity? This was the question I thought this thread was about because of the first two posts. This question has been answered and the answer is no, it doesn’t affect accuracy or muzzle velocity (at least until someone does the research to prove otherwise.) Then why do cartridges with a bullet that was harder to seat usually shoot out of the group? I've seen that quite a bit and remove those from the lot.

============

45.2.1

A bullet very hard to seat may be damaged or set back during seating. I would suggest that you examine your reloading methods and find out why you would have a bullet extremely hard to seat. Proper loading practices should eliminate such inconsistency.  I have never seen a systematic test that shows what you claim is really true but one very good one that shows that it isn’t true. Anecdotes like yours, if repeated often enough, sometimes become the conventional wisdom but that doesn’t make them true.

==========

Aside from Bottiger's excellent work I haven't seen you say exactly what he was doing for a proof.... can you quantify exactly what he did for all of us since you say it's true? Some proof, not speculation since you made a definitive statement on the matter?  

===========

I outlined what he did for proof in the fifth post in this thread.

I suggest you read that post and read the article. Then try to understand what you have read before asking more preachy and insulting questions. 

============

Rationalizing is not proof. If it is true, then a scientific or mathematical analysis should be shown .

“Rationalizing” doesn’t make any sense used in that sentence.  Please look the word up. Why are you accusing Bottiger of “speculation” and “rationalizing” any way when you haven’t read the article? 

Any shot to shot variation in the tiny force that neck tension could possibly provide will be overwhelmed by the much, much, larger variation in the force doing the pushing. As a math major might say "it is in the round off error and insignificant. 

As an engineer, I've found rounding gives an imprecise answer in real world situations and can cost big money to correct. Hard concrete numbers are hard to argue with...... Math has proofs for assumptions.... until proven with hard numbers, they are just assumptions.

Both of the sentences in that statement are incoherent and basically baloney.  But they do reveal a complete ignorance of the role in rounding off and respect for significant figures in engineering calculations. I don’t know what engineering school you went to, but you wouldn’t have made it through one of my classes without a better understanding of the proper use of rounding off and significant figures for displaying a realistic level of precision in engineering calculations.

John

 

 

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OU812 posted this 23 August 2018

Today my rifle shot best with all four lube grooves filled...and I thought less lube worked best smile

John you are a very smart man. I can see why you are president.

...

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pat i. posted this 23 August 2018

O (don't mind me calling you O for short I hope) lube an the amount deserve a thread by itself. I think its important and interesting and wouldn't want to see the conversation lost in a thread about neck tension.

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rfd123 posted this 23 August 2018

all my centerfire rifle cartridges are .45-70 and are amongst the quintessential original "straight" or "straight neck" cases.  they're loaded either pseudo fire formed (if new) with a straight mouth expanding die, or fire formed.  since the bullets are paper patched slicks, and the the chamber has no throat or leade (a classic 19th century style PPB chamber), the brass hardly gets "worked" and there is little to no neck tension.  i'll never go back to greasers.

 

http://www.BuffaloRifles.org

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pat i. posted this 23 August 2018

"Greasers" I like that.

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John Alexander posted this 24 August 2018

At times this thread has gotten a bit over the line with unacceptable language. I will admit that I have been a bit frustrated at times and perhaps not as patient as I could have been.  Review of some principles may help future discussions.

 

One purpose for the forum is provide for honest discussion and honest discussion will include disagreements from time to time. THAT IS OK. Different viewpoints and presenting your side of an issue if it includes presenting evidence is one way can learn and get better performance in our shooting.

 

Having someone say they believe you are wrong is NOT a valid reason to either call names,  assign undesirable character traits to the other guy, or engage on aggressive or hostile speech. Write only what you would say in a face to face conversation when the other guy is Mike Tyson.  Read what he claims and take a deep breath or a break before answering.  Asking for his evidence is appropriate and so is mustering your argument and evidence and making your best case.  Keeping an open mind to the possibility that we could be wrong is sometimes hard to do but would improve the quality of our discussions.

 

Most members including most posters have indicated that they don’t like negative bickering so please dial it back a bit and keep this forum one we can all enjoy.

 

Thanks for your cooperation.

 

John

 

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joeb33050 posted this 24 August 2018

One purpose for the forum is provide for honest discussion and honest discussion will include disagreements from time to time. THAT IS OK. Different viewpoints and presenting your side of an issue if it includes presenting evidence is one way can learn and get better performance in our shooting.

If people discuss their favorite color, mine is blue, these are opinions.

Discussing the value of pi, the fact that velocity is a vector quantity, or the mating habits of blue whales serves no purpose. Opinions don't matter.

If we want to know if it is raining out, forming a committee to analyze and discuss the question is beaten by looking out the farking window.

Will bullets without  lube lead the barrel? Will they shoot accurately? 

Experiment, get some DATA, stop the nonsense!

 

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