Cast bullet hand loading for 22-250

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David R. posted this 13 March 2018

A little about myself first: I grew up shooting bushels of .22 LR. First with my grandfather, then boy scouts, afterwards Jr. ROTC. Later, in my twenties I shot some bullseye matches indoors with the .22 LR where I did fairly well. I moved on to .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .32 H&R Magnum. I had a wonderful mentor who had an encyclopedic knowledge of firearms, casting and reloading who helped me get started back in the late eighties and early nineties. I didn’t have the internet, but I had James and a Lyman manual and my results were satisfying. When I began reloading years ago my means were limited and my setup was minimal.  I started with a Lee Loader and a mallet and eventually moved up to a Lee hand press and a “Speed Die”. (I don’t think they even make those now). Casting a 105 SWC from wheel weights scrounged from all over, never sizing them and tumble lubing in Liquid Alox I was shooting groups out of my revolvers that I could cover with my palm at fifty feet.

 Fast forward to a couple of years ago and I had been away from my shooting hobby for twenty years. I was gifted a lovely Remington 700 chambered in 22-250. Initially I didn’t even know what I had. I began researching and learned a bit about the cartridge and that my gun was made in 1966, making it an early production version. I knew right away that I wanted to reload for this gun and use cast bullets if at all possible. It has been an interesting journey and it was what led me to find and join the CBA. I have very much enjoyed lurking and reading the posts of others and my only complaint is that the forum isn’t more active. Well, I’m making a contribution here that I hope will help a bit. 

 This is my first foray in to reloading for a rifle. The following is what I’m doing. I know that most of you in this group are much more experienced and knowledgable than myself and I welcome your insights and observations. Understanding that I am likely a bit vain, insecure and neurotic I trust that you will be gentle in your criticisms. 

 Lyman #225415 mold. This is a 55 grain bullet

Bullets cast in #2 alloy, tumble lubed in 45/45/10, gas check applied, sized .224 and lubed again. 

Norma Brass with flash hole cleaned with unifying tool

Winchester primers

Cartridge overall length 2.214 (Lyman manual calls for 2.325, but I used a gizmo on my cleaning rod and one of my bullets to come up with the above measurement. 

 15.3 grains of 5744 This was the starting load with a listed velocity of 2.032 fps

 Lee Factory Crimp

 My first trip to the range was a disaster. I made multiple mistakes. My scope was badly out of adjustment and I was never going to get any bullets on target at the ambitious 100 yard distance that I was starting from. After digging worms somewhere midways down range for twenty rounds I shook my head and went home. My barrel was an evil mess. I have never seen such fouling. After a week of alternate soaking and scrubbing with brushes and patches I went to work with Kroil and JB Bore cleaner before worrying the hell out of it with JB Bore polish. Candidly I don’t know if I ever got it perfectly clean but it’s certainly shiny. 

 During a subsequent trip to the range I got my scope adjusted for fifty yards using factory ammo. If I had been holding well enough I think that it could shoot one hole groups at that distance. 

 For my second attempt with hand loads I cast in straight Linotype and followed the same lubing, sizing and loading procedure as above. 

 This time I was peppering the target in groups that were about four or five inches across (too poor to bother measuring in my opinion)  This time I had a Chronograph and was able to check my velocity. The average was 2,240 fps. They only varied by fifty fps except for one wild shot that was 2,290. I was pleased with this and felt that I must have done something right to have my spread of velocity be that close.  When I got home the gun cleaned up with just a few patches after soaking with Kroil. 

 I’m now wondering if this is going to work or not. I am forming the opinion that in the mid sixties when this cartridge / rifle combo was being developed that no one was thinking of doing what I’m trying to do. This thing was meant to shoot fast and flat, period! I attempted to determine my rate of twist using masking tape and my cleaning rod. I came up with 14:1 twice in a row. Since my velocity is a tad more than the manual listed I’m thinking that I will reduce the load to 13 grains of 5744 and see what they clock and if my groups tighten up. 

 On another forum I read where someone else wanted to do the same thing. One person responded asking “why would you want to emasculate such a fine cartridge?”. That’s a fair question and my answer is that I was given a nice rifle that I would just like to enjoy shooting. I didn't get to select the cartridge that it was chambered in. I usually only have access to a 100 yard range and I know of no reason that I need a 3,500 fps screamer. If I can get good target accuracy at 100 yards while making it easier on myself and my gun then that’s the reason. 

 I have not as yet slugged my barrel. I probably should. 

 I now offer this up to the brain trust to see what else I need to consider. Thanx in advance! 

 

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OU812 posted this 28 March 2018

You will need a higher powered scope for serious target shooting. The single powered Leupold series are verygood and requires no seperate high powered spotting scope to see bullet holes. So get off that wallet. smile

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David R. posted this 28 March 2018

I want to thank GP Idaho for the tip about the book. I received my copy and just read Carl Johnson’s article on the 22-250. Worth the price of the book! I’m excited to see that the mold I’m using is the one that produced the best results.

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David R. posted this 28 March 2018

I use JB products and like them. I may actually have this thing cleaner than I know. My patches just show a touch of darkness so maybe I'm actually cleaning metal out by now. 

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David R. posted this 28 March 2018

Thanx Ken, this is encouraging. I have been using Kroil with JB Bore cleaner and afterwards a swab with only Kroil. My patches end up with just a touch of darkness on them so perhaps I have gotten it good and clean. I'm an obsessive - compulsive gun cleaner. If I've been to the range I don't sleep until guns are cleaned or at least have been swabbed and soaking over night until I can clean them properly. I also use JB Bore Bright and swab and clean again. It's shiny in there I can assure you. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 March 2018

david R. ...

if you get blue/green patches after solvent soaking ... soak and scrub some more.   but if the patches are just dark, you are just looking at some steel from your barrel ... you can quit now .     even worse with stainless ....

also, it helps to wrap your bore brush with 4000 grade steel wool ... won't hurt barrel at all .... just gives a grip on the crud in the barrel .... same with real brass wool if you can find it ...   same with the original JB compound ....

( just for fun i once shot a thousand rounds of jb sprinkled 22 rimfire through a match barrel ... just got shinier and same accuracy ......and no throat advancement ...  not recommending that but cleaning with JB isn't going to harm anything real soon  ... )

oh, i set my remmy 722 trigger to 1.5 lbs in 1956 .... wore out a sear but never had an AD in 60,000 rounds .  but i never chambered until the shot ...

keep us informed on your 22 adventures ... nice to see more and more 22 targets ...  i got out some of my old ones from 1980-81 ... i made a swage to make 22 wadcutters: made neatest holes in the target paper !! ...

ken

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OU812 posted this 28 March 2018

Lots of videos on YouTube show how to adjust Remington trigger.

JB Bore paste will do a quicker job of removing copper...or making it more smooth. Muck like sanding bondo on a car body. Some believe copper fouling can be a good thing...up to a point.

 

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David R. posted this 28 March 2018

Thanx Mitch. I don't plan to do anything to the rifle at this point. I actually like the old scope okay. It's not the best I've used, but not the worst either. I wouldn't mind having the trigger be a tad lighter, but that isn't a priority right now. I've got it soaking with Kroil at the moment, but I may switch to copper solvent after I give this a scrub. I plan to make it a daily ritual until I can get a truly clean patch out of it. 

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M3 Mitch posted this 28 March 2018

Almost certainly, a used 22-250 will come with some copper fouling in the bore, which, I have read in more than one place, needs to be cleaned out before the rifle will do it's best cast bullet shooting.

You might want to consider the bore-polishing technique that onondaga has developed.  Instructions are on here, but I am not certain how to direct you to them.

 

But, first things first, use your favorite copper solvent until the patches are no longer green or blue when you push them out the muzzle.

I have to agree with "leaving well enough alone" on this old Remington.  I'd limit work to cleaning, and maybe a card shim to "free float" the barrel.  A glass bedding job might make it shoot somewhat more accurately, but, yeah, it will not help collector value at all.  Springing for a 6.5X20 Leopold might be worth doing, if for some strange reason you don't like the scope, you can sell it on and get almost all your money back.  But my money is on "try it, you'll like it!".

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David R. posted this 27 March 2018

Cerrosafe ingots on order. I'm going to work on soaking and cleaning in the meantime. 

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John Alexander posted this 25 March 2018

 Thanx guys. 

I was using 8 grains of Tightgroup. I like the idea of backing off a tad and skipping the gas check. 

===========

I suspect you don't need this reminder but -- If you want to tell if a smaller charge shoots better don't leave off the gas check as well. That should be a separate test.  One variable change at a time is best.

John 

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R. Dupraz posted this 25 March 2018

 

 Until that bore is cleaned of fouling, both powder and copper, which it likely is, and you then determine  what size bullet will fill the throat, everything else you try will be wasted effort.

I have a pristine old Remington 722 222 Remington. And when I got it years ago, the bore was so fouled it took me a couple of days to get it clean. Turned out that it is now one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever owned. 

 

R.

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David R. posted this 25 March 2018

Thank you Ken. I wasn't familiar with any of this, but it makes perfect sense. I stay busy as a  one armed paper hanger, but I will certainly take some time  to research this and share my progress. 

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David R. posted this 25 March 2018

I think hard powder fouling 2-5" beyond throat is the cause of what seems to be lead fouling and bad accuracy. Cleaner burning powders and the correct balance of lube will help. Too much lube is not good (too slippery), not enough or wrong lube creates more powder fouling. Lately the 45-45-10 tumble lube seems to work well for me.

You can feel the hard powder fouling when pushing the first wet patch down barrel. More fouling equals worse accuracy. Pay attention when cleaning barrel.

Shooting 25 shot strings (5 five shot groups) will tell you when your barrel starts to settle down and when it starts to foul.

I am still learning and sometimes get lucky and find something that shoots good.

I suspect that you are on to something here. It is often difficult for me to push the first patch through. I have some unsized bullets with only one coat of 45-45-10 that I'm thinking that I will load next and see how it goes. 

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 March 2018

here is a link discussing ed's red .

http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=9

a simple throat check is to seat your chosen cast bullet loosely and very long ... chamber it and see how far ( or if ) the throat pushes the bullet back in the case ... that gives you an idea of the length of the throat ... it is often best to seat the bullet out as far as possible ... not always, but often.

the best ... and highly suggested method ... is to create an image of the entire forward part of the chamber including the throat and even a 3/8 inch portion of the rifling ahead of the throat.  this will give you a lot of information .  can/will save you weeks of random trying things that won't work .

use the search button here to look for posts on chamber casting ... chamber images ... cerrosafe ... chamber upset ... pound cast ...

cerrosafe is some neat stuff ... it melts at hairdryer temps and you gently pour the liquid into a pre-heated chamber ....stopping the flow with a wadded patch about 1/2 inch in front of the throat .  let it set up and then push it back out and you can see what your chamber looks like ....  you can order cerrosafe from rotometals, and you can use it over and over ... but i suggest you do a cast for every gun and store it for reference.

* pound casts * involve upsetting soft lead in the area of the front of the neck and into the rifling ...  i put a spacer rod into an empty case so i don't need so much lead and chamber the case  ... the soft lead should be a soft rod  seated in the neck and extends an inch or better up the throat before you tap it from the muzzle with a brass or aluminum rod ( softer than barrel but don't bugger a good cleaning rod  ) ... use about a hundred little taps rather than 5 giant hammer blows .  this gives a good image also; i keep soft lead wire around for this purpose , you can use 22 rimfire bullets also , melted into a rod shape first .

hope this helps.  ken

 

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David R. posted this 24 March 2018

Thanx guys. 

I was using 8 grains of Tightgroup. I like the idea of backing off a tad and skipping the gas check. 

Question: What is "Ed's Red"? 

How do i determine the condition / size of my throat? 

 

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 24 March 2018

OU812, I tend to agree. And don't want to hijack David's thread So will try to be brief. Now I can cite theory's, opinions and examples too but what I wrote comes from lessons learned since the mid sixties when trying to get the most accuracy out of a particular handgun or rifle with jacketed or cast.

My M. O. is to start with the most basic simplest things first, in order one at a time and work toward the complicated / drastic. Maybe they will be necessary, maybe not. Don't know yet. The target is the ultimate judge.

It's David's choice to make as to how far he wants to go with that fine old Remington. 

 

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OU812 posted this 24 March 2018

Your 1966 Remington will have a better resale value if you leave it as it came from the factory.

I would first install a higher powered scope (6-20 power) just to see how well it shoots higher powered jacketed. The high Leupold rings and mounts with windage adjustment will work fine. Look for good grouping that does not shift or wander as barrel heats up. Shooting 2 five shot groups should tell.

Make sure both receiver screws are tight (30-40 inch pounds) before testing.

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frnkeore posted this 24 March 2018

I wouldn't worry about pulling a action out of a stock, at all. I float all my bolt guns, if possible, in the way I described. I have never had a rifle shoot worse, that way. As a barrel and action warm, from shooting, You will never know if things are going wrong with the bedding if you don't have the barrel floated. My floating method is not a permanent fix but, if it improved the rifle, it makes it very easy to glass bed it. In general, if a barrel won't shoot floated, it probably won't shoot well, period.

A few years ago, I bought new (take off) 24" sporter weight barrel, off a 700 Rem, in 243 Win to put on my Rem 660 carbine. It actually had the same profile as the 20" barrel that they come with. Floated as above and using a proven load (45 gr H414 w/85 gr jacketed BT) that I developed in my 6mm Rem rifles (not 243 Win), I was able to shoot 4 shot groups of 5/8 - 3/4", with the 5th shot going to about 1/2-3/8" out of the groups at 100 yards. Those results occurring, with 5, five shot groups. The barrel heated a lot from start to finish of the groups. A much more sever testing than cast.

Frank

 

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OU812 posted this 24 March 2018

I think hard powder fouling 2-5" beyond throat is the cause of what seems to be lead fouling and bad accuracy. Cleaner burning powders and the correct balance of lube will help. Too much lube is not good (too slippery), not enough or wrong lube creates more powder fouling. Lately the 45-45-10 tumble lube seems to work well for me.

You can feel the hard powder fouling when pushing the first wet patch down barrel. More fouling equals worse accuracy. Pay attention when cleaning barrel.

Shooting 25 shot strings (5 five shot groups) will tell you when your barrel starts to settle down and when it starts to foul.

I am still learning and sometimes get lucky and find something that shoots good.

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 March 2018

bedding :: ... a well bedded rifle can be taken apart and put back together without hurting ACCURACY ... not sure about zero .  by well bedded i mean solid , as in correct stock pillars and recoil feature(s) perfectly fitted ...

i agree that a softly bedded rifle probably gets even worse if you remove it from the stock ... but it will also get worse if you squeeze the fore-end or move your cheek an inch on the shoulder piece ...  or actually, if you shoot it twice in a row ... (cool) ...

wish devcon came in a $4 tube .. you only need a couple ounces ...

ken

 

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