Casting with hardball

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Last Post 16 August 2017

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the_buckshot_kid posted this 23 May 2017

New member her from upstate NY. I'm looking to get into casting but starting off a little easy. What I'm wondering is....I'll be casting .44 mag using Lyman's 429421 mold. Now rather than trying to figure out a mixture,I'd like to just use hardball from rotometals which is a 16bhn. I'll be nearly duplicating Elmer Keith's loads with his bullet and alliant 2400. Would hardball be too hard for hunting applications? How fast would I be able to run them without leading? Would I need a gas check? Thanks

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David Reiss posted this 23 May 2017

It may not be to hard, but the bullet diameter will need to match cylinder throats. Measure each cylinder throat by pushing a soft bullet through. Size the bullet so that it matches as close as possible to largest throat. As an example: if 5 throats are .429 and one is .430, then size bullets to .430.

With 16 bhn and properly sized bullets, you should not have any issues with leading at maximum loads. Gas check will seal throat so I would use them with hunting loads.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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BigMan54 posted this 24 May 2017

If do want a gascheck bullet. You'll have to switch to the #429244, which is designed for gaschecks. The #429421 will NOT take a gascheck. Although you can use the same powders for both. Charges may very depending on the source. There are also the SAECO #439 & RCBS #44-240-SWC. Both gascheck & ALL the above bullets take the same Top Punch.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 May 2017

back when i was trying to get small groups with cast .... since i was working 18 hrs a day i bot a ten years supply of hardball from taracorp ... so i wasn't tempted to add alloy variables to the jigsaw puzzle ... anyway hardball is slightly malleable ... it can be swaged ( slowly ) and if bullet fit is right can be shot at least 2200 fps ( if medium pressure loads ) with gas check ... and maybe 1600 without gas check . all that without further heat treat . since i was mostly group shooting it worked great. and expand some without shattering .

that said , i would pick #2 alloy to optimize for large caliber hunting ... it might be a little easier to get good enough accuracy in larger calibers and a big bullet at 1800-2000 is enough power for woods use .

with either HB or #2 alloy, bullet fit is more important than the alloy , both in accuracy and being able to shoot 10 shots without flyers from leading ; a good fit and load in #2 won't lead enough to tell in the first 100 shots .

my thoughts, ken

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onondaga posted this 24 May 2017

the_buckshot_kid

The BHN 15 alloy best suited for hunting in .44 Mag is Lyman #2. It is the same strength and load range as hardball. but the #2 is more suited for hunting as it's 5% Tin makes it so malleable that bullets expand well and do NOT fragment in bone and meat like hardball does. Although both alloys are BHN 15 The Hardball is more brittle due to it's higher Antimony and lower Tin content and will fragment in game.

Nearly all of the loads in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 specify Lyman #2 for the match to the load levels from Lyman for the 44 Mag. It is an excellent alloy and I have taken Deer and Pig in 44 Mag Pistol very well with SWC cast bullets, Plain based or gas checked. I like Lee Tumble lube SWC in .44 Mag the best, the Lee TL430-240-SWC. They always shoot well as cast and tumble lubed for me.

Leading comes primarily from poor fit of bullets. Using the largest diameter bullet that will easily chamber is the best fit, or in a revolver it should take a 2 pound push on a bare bullet to get it through a chamber, less or more will lead and decrease accuracy potential.

There is a line between Upstate NY and Western NY. I am in N Tonawanda, in Niagara County near Niagara Falls, where are you? I cast Buckshot and everything else .22 to .500 S&W Mag. and 458 Win Mag. All I shoot is cast every caliber.

Gary

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the_buckshot_kid posted this 25 May 2017

Ok so the general consensus is that Lyman#2 would be a better choice. Now hers another question....I slugged my Ruger and I came up with .431 cyl , .4305 bore and .430 muzzle. Should I get a mold that measures .432 and size down to .431 or should I be doing something else?

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the_buckshot_kid posted this 25 May 2017

I'm in the southern tier...Delaware County about 75 miles west of Albany.

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Ed Harris posted this 25 May 2017

1:20 tin-lead alloy in .430-.431" diameter will be an ideal fit, not lead and expand well at full revolver velocity. Ideally you want a mold which drops the correct size +/- 0.0005" (one-half thousandth).

Front driving band of Keith must be sized to exact fit or slightly less to enter the chambers, otherwise any out of roundness or excess diameter will impinge against the ball seat and impede chambering, causing cylinder drag unless rounds are FORCED in.

Ternary Pb-Sb-Sn alloys will grow with age and bullets you cast and size this week to fit your chambers exactly, will not go into the gun next year. Sizing 1/2 thou under ball seat diameter is better.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Eutectic posted this 25 May 2017

You may find your hardball bullets perform best with full 44 Magnum loads. If you want to load 44 special level loads you will probably want to use a softer alloy. Hardball is 2% tin 6% antimony, mixing it with an equal weight pure lead will give you 1% 3% which will work well with moderate loads. Even softer alloys will work and sometimes give better accuracy. An alloy which is to hard for the pressure level is likely to lead.

Steve Hurst

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 May 2017

.... and just to give more confidence in using softer alloys, remember that the 22 rimfire alloy is close to pure lead .... and will shoot moa in even plinking quality loads ... well, those that are about the same loudness shot to shot ... ( g ) ...

ken

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10Speed posted this 26 May 2017

My experience with deer and the 44 Magnum Super Redhawk is with Garrett Hammerhead loaded ammunition (310gr, 20+ BHN) and 320gr SSK bullets (from Penn Bullets) that I loaded. As I recall, the SSK is a fairly hard bullet as well. The deer I killed with my revolver with said loads were one shot each.

It has been a while since I've hunted, but I remember the last one was at 105 yards with the SSK bullet. It was a lung shot and went through and through. The exit hole was not much larger than the entrance hole, but the lungs were jellied.

My experience is that the blunt nose causes a lot of internal trauma even if it is fairly hard and doesn't expand a lot.

That said, I would defer to the knowledge of those who have posted above.

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BigMan54 posted this 26 May 2017

Back in the days of my misspent youth. In the early 70'S when it was still legal to hunt MTN LION over dogs, I got leave to hunt with my Dad. I took one using my Dad's RUGER old Blackhawk in .44 mag using the #429421 cast of #2, sized. 430 over a STIFF load of 2400.

It is hard as H**L to hit a Cat moving around 60ft up a tree with too many branches. The angle was so extreme that one shoulder was completely shattered & three vertebrae were blown out the Cat's back. Left a 6 inch hole in the hide. No bullet was recovered. The one bullet I tied to dig out the tree went in about 6 inches. Wish I still had the pictures.

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John F. posted this 04 June 2017

Don't be afraid to branch out from 2400, as well. Decades ago, I was working with a 6" Smith Model 29, using 2400 with both cast SWC's and Hornady 240 gr. JSP-HP's. I happened across Speer's swaged lead, 240 gr. SWC's just about the time I traded off my .22 Hornet... leaving 3/4 can of IMR 4227 that needed to be disposed of. At full loads, that combination really turned the Smith into an eye-opener!! What before had yielded "decent" accuracy at 25 yards became a stone tack-driver, shooting 5-shot 1-hole groups with no leading. To say I was please was a giant understatement!

John

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the_buckshot_kid posted this 11 June 2017

I have various powders. IMR 4227 being one of them. I've been reloading for nearly 30 yrs and this is the first time I've ever casted. I thought I should try as the accuracy with my Ruger SBH is horrid at 50yds....about a 5" group using Sierra 240gr JHC.My father-in-law has been casting since the '70s but I'm looking for others opinions as well .His load is with Veral Smiths mold, 280gr wfn and 17gr of 296. He can consistently hit clay targets at 100yds.

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onondaga posted this 12 June 2017

the_buckshot_kid

The Ruger SBH can be competition winning with cast. Like any revolver, fit of the bullet determines this. There is no magic bullets. If your chambers all mike even and your barrel is good and you fit the bullet to a 1-2 pound push to pass through fit, it will shoot fine. If you need chamber size unifying, get it done by an excellent pistol smith specifically for cast bullets and a 2 pound push fit. Then with a good fit bullet you can get your SBH shooting better than your dad with cast. Revolvers well fit with cast bullets shoot better than jacketed.

Gary

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the_buckshot_kid posted this 14 August 2017

What would happen if I used say 5lbs hardball and added 3-4lbs 20:1 alloy? I would think the alloy would be softer but by how much.

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onondaga posted this 14 August 2017

the_buckshot_kid , you asked,

What would happen if I used say 5lbs hardball and added 3-4lbs 20:1 alloy? I would think the alloy would be softer but by how much.

All you need to figure out your hardness BHN very accurately is a little algebra. Just figure your total of each by percentage of Lead, Tin and Antimony in your mix and apply the basic hardening formula. Formula is at Rotometals too:

Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-

For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )

Hardball is 2% Tin, 6% Antimony and 92% lead

20:1 is 20 parts lead and 1 part Tin or 95% Lead and 5% Tin

change that all to percentages in your total of pounds of the alloy you propose and run the numbers by the formula. I ain't your math teacher. If your numbers are correct, your answer will be more accurate than using a hardness measuring tool. I'm sure your high school Algebra teacher would say, "I told you so".

Any chilling to cool has a dramatic BHN hardening effect on alloys containing Antimony. The formula is only accurate with alloy air cooled naturally at room temperature.

Gary

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JSH posted this 15 August 2017

I have various powders. IMR 4227 being one of them. I've been reloading for nearly 30 yrs and this is the first time I've ever casted. I thought I should try as the accuracy with my Ruger SBH is horrid at 50yds....about a 5" group using Sierra 240gr JHC.My father-in-law has been casting since the '70s but I'm looking for others opinions as well .His load is with Veral Smiths mold, 280gr wfn and 17gr of 296. He can consistently hit clay targets at 100yds.

I like and prefer 2400 in my 44's, it just works. 5"groups@ 50 yards, with jacketed. I would be doing some measuring and checking for thread choke. Sounds like there may be an issue. If your FIL's mold was made as Veral likes to, it may not fit your gun. I may catch some flack for this but here goes. When and if you purchase another or new mold, I suggest you go custom. It can and will save a lot of headaches and expansion of your vocabulary. Oh sure you could get lucky and get a mold that is of proper size. I never seemed to be that fortunate. LBT,NOE, Accurate and Mihec just to name a few. I have some of each and they are all a pleasure to cast with, AND they drop at a size I need or wanted. Not what "they" think I should have. Close to 20 years casting now. I still read what I can get my hands on and listen when spoken too. Easier and cheaper to learn from others mistakes. The Internet is a grand thing. But when trying to help folks, explaining a problem, then trying to explain or help cure it can be a chore in its self. One last thing. When I started casting I was advised to go on the hard side of an alloy. Worst advice I was ever given, period. I was told to use straight link type for years. No leading, but no groups to brag on either. I want both and get it. I was a speed freak also. Took me a while to understand speed isn't everything, nor is it always needed.

Your at a good place with a lot of good folks.

Jeff

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BigMan54 posted this 16 August 2017

Jeff,

I've had the opposite experience with LINOTYPE. I've cast the LYMAN/THOMPSON #358156 out of straight LINO for my NM BlackHawk 6 1/2" ever since I bought it in 1974. I size to .358 & use 50/50 lube. I used LYMAN gaschecks at 1st then switched to HORNADY crimp on. Never have had any leading problems. Accuracy is top notch; 6rds into an 1 1/2" at 25yrs, 2 1/4" at 50yds.

44 Mag is another story. Neither of the 2 LYMAN/THOMPSON (#429215&#429244) bullets are worth the LEAD I've wasted casting/shooting them when casting with LINOTYPE. Switch to #2 & they shoot as straight as you could ask for. Only had 1 load that would shoot under 3" at 25yds.

Now that I've written that it may prove your point.

But I've had good luck with LINOTYPE using the #452490 in .45Colt & .454Casull.

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onondaga posted this 16 August 2017

the_buckshot_kid, you said,

What would happen if I used say 5lbs hardball and added 3-4lbs 20:1 alloy? I would think the alloy would be softer but by how much.

In case you gave up, by my voodoo math:

5 pounds hardball plus 3 pounds 20:1 yields an alloy with ~13.75 BHN

5 pounds hardball plus 4 pounds 20:1 yields an alloy with ~13.33 BHN

That is not a significant strength difference between those 2 alloys

By Lee book on alloy selection related to load pressure, 13.75 BHN alloy can be loaded between ~19,000 psi MAXIMUM and ~17,000 psi working pressure for a plain base bullet and ~10% higher load pressures for the same alloy with a gas checked bullet. This is also dependent on perfect bullet to the throat fit. Lee has scientifically proven that lower or higher pressure than the recommended pressure range of the alloy subtracts accuracy potential. I have proven and verified Lee's work on load range projection related to alloy strength to myself, but some people will never listen.

Does any of that help?

Gary

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JSH posted this 16 August 2017

Maybe I should restate my comment on Linotype? I had pretty much zero leading, with mediocre results. We all know this can vary gun to gun, mold to mold. When I switched and went to like a Lyman #2 I saw a lot better results, or a direction to work in. This will create howls from the masses, I tried and tried with the 358156. I must have had 4-6 different molds, I just never could get it to shoot as I liked. Alloys, size,lube,etc were tried and in various 357/38's.

Lino seemed to exhibit skidding in the barrel of revolvers. It was well on its way down the barrel before it grabbed hold of the rifling. As mentioned I saw little leading,mic you wanted to call it that.

I quit trying to make an alloy work in everything. I have to tinker a bit with some and put those in my notes as to likes and dislikes of a mold-alloy-cartridge combo.

Things were simpler when I started casting. That in turn let me cast for various calibers. I am now going from 22-475, and looking at a 17. Should have my head examined. Jeff

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Casting with hardball

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