Colt Official Police .38 Special

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Ed Harris posted this 14 December 2018

I found this on GunBroker, nobody was bidding, so I made the opening bid and got lucky.

Early Colt Official Police .38 Special, 6-inch barrel made in 1929.  Bore is bright, action tight, passes the range rod with no tickers on all six charge holes, barrel-cylinder gap 0.003" pass / 0.004" hold, cylinder throats .358, bore diameter .346, groove diameter .355."  Tomorrow is range day!

 

Anybody else have and shoot an OP?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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beltfed posted this 14 December 2018

I had a Colt Officers Model Match 38 cal recently-In original box/papers. 

It shot well, but just did not like the feel of it/grip,etc

I am too used to my S&W revolvers. J,K,N frames

So it is now "down the road" to a Colt collector. --I might add, kind of unfortunately-it

may never be shot again.

beltfed/arnie

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M3 Mitch posted this 14 December 2018

Ed, your luck with GunBroker continues to amaze me.  That looks like a great old gat.  You just have to figure out what bullet weight will shoot to the fixed sights, not hard to do.  Probably something close to 158-160 grains is a good guess for an initial try.

I have posted before about my Officer's Model Heavy Barrel Match in .32 S&W - has adjustable sights, shoots much better than I can hold it with the 93 grain Lyman bullet intended for the 30 Luger. 

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Ed Harris posted this 14 December 2018

For the first range trip I have an assortment of vintage factory ammo, lots of wadcutter from WW2 period to 1960s, some WW2-era 158LRN, and 1930s 200-grain Super Police:

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 14 December 2018

Best wishes on the joy of your new revolver! Just keep us in the loop with results, then we can share with you. laughing

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Mike H posted this 14 December 2018

What a treasure,they certainly made them well in those days.

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M3 Mitch posted this 14 December 2018

Ed, wouldn't you be better off selling that vintage ammo to a collector, buy new ammo, and pocket the difference?  I guess you know that and there is a certain cachet to using old ammo in an old gun, but being the tightwad that I am, I would sell the vintage and buy new (or just make up some handloads)

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Ed Harris posted this 14 December 2018

The old ammo is more accurate than the stuff they make now.  I also want to shoot the old guns with the ammo they were made for.  In particular I want to benchmark "pre lawyer" classic loads to have a target velocity to approximate with my handloads.

When I acquire these old boxes at estate sales, etc. they don't sell for collector ammo prices.  Cost per box is less than new ammo, or else I won't buy it. The lots I buy are usually less expensive and of better quality than current production.  I picked up 950 rounds of Rem-UMC headstamped 148-grain Targetmaster wadcutter from the 1940s for $400 shipped.  I then sold the vintage wooden crate it came in, with the antique Railway Express shipping label to its WW2 destination for $100.  Made the ammo much cheaper.

When I am done I auction off the collectible empty boxes or take them to gun shows where people are usually happy to pay $10 for a vintage box to put on their shelf.  Makes the net cost on the old ammo quite affordable.

And how else are you going to find .38 Special cases with large primer pockets for experiments?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 14 December 2018

Ed;

That is a NICE looking piece with just a "smidgen" of honest wear. It certainly has the correct dimensions. I'll bet it shoots "like a house on fire"!tongue-out

I still have a few boxes of original wadcutters from my PPC days. My experience certainly agrees with your comments on the quality of those old wadcutters. I Ransomed Rested a good bit of both Remington and Winchester "back in the day". I regularly got some groups at 25 yards that would get me called a liar if I mentioned them to a stranger. Frankly, I couldn't quite match them with my personal home cast reloads but I did come close. In those days, lead was nearly free, so the cost was a "no contest" in favor or my reloads.

FWIW

Dale53

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Tom Acheson posted this 15 December 2018

Ed,

I have a S&W Model 52, .38 Special full wadcutters, flush seated only. The only CB sizing die that I have is a Saeco 0.357”. Is that too small for the 52?

Thanks!

Tom

 

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Ed Harris posted this 15 December 2018

Ed,

I have a S&W Model 52, .38 Special full wadcutters, flush seated only. The only CB sizing die that I have is a Saeco 0.357”. Is that too small for the 52?

Thanks!

Tom

 


If bullets are soft < or = to 10 BHN .357 should slug up with Bullseye, 231 or WST and work.

Try them and see.  If you can shoot ten shots X-ring 25 yards load is working. 

Col. E.H. Harrison got best results with H&G#50 cast of linotype, sized .358" filling only bottom lube groove with 50-50 Alox-beeswax with 3 grains of Bullseye and taper crimping only to remove mouth flare using Star machine and Winchester wadcutter brass.  Wheelweights at .358 also work, but linotype was more consistent and better castings.

My 1929 OP shot X-ring group today for 12 rounds with 1940s Rem-UMC wadcutters. 

WRA 158 LRN service loads ran 12 rounds into ten-ring sized group, fired over top of the wadcutter target, because I was more interested in confirming fixed sight zero and seeing how well the gun would shoot.

Will take target pics tomorrow and post them.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 December 2018

Some sandbagged 25-yard targets fired with the 1929 OP, 12 shots with each ammo, both 148 wadcutter and 158 LRN on same target to confirm differences in point of impact between the two bullet weights.   When the first cylinder full goes down in a nice, tight cluster, it takes resolve to fire another six on top of it, but these targets reflect reality, 24 rounds, 12 each using two different ammos.

One target was shot with the more modern lead "FBI Load,"  good for zero and with +P service loads I'll sure take a ten-ring group.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid posted this 16 December 2018

I really like the look of that six inches barrel. You got a shooter there. Got to give it to you getting groups with those sights .

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BigMan54 posted this 16 December 2018

Ed,

Do you have a favorite handload for the O P ?

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ed Harris posted this 16 December 2018

For most .38 Specials in general, either Saeco #348 DEWC, or Accurate 36-159H with 3.5 grains of Bullseye

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mike H posted this 16 December 2018

What impresses me most is the accuracy of the old factory ammunition,would this only apply to lead projectiles in pistol ammunition or could well stored rifle ammunition hold up over 70 years of storage?

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Ed Harris posted this 16 December 2018

What impresses me most is the accuracy of the old factory ammunition,would this only apply to lead projectiles in pistol ammunition or could well stored rifle ammunition hold up over 70 years of storage?

I am still using .30-'06 Ball M1 made in the 1930s which is accurate and reliable.  Also WW2-era Ball M2.

Of course some lots are more accurate than others, and it is ordinary service grade ammunition, but whether originally produced at FA, or LC, TW, SL, WRA, WCC all is sure-fire. All my old .30 cal. stuff was stored in original cans and crates, raised off the concrete floor on a woden pallet, covered with a shelter half, in a Virginia cellar. 

I have lend-lease production WRA and Rem-UMC .303 ammo which is reliable, whereas the British, Indian and Pakistani Berdan primed cordite ammo tends to develop hangfires and misfires after about 40-50 years. I've had FN .30 cal. and .303 ammo which suffered from the same affliction. I'm not sure whether it is something about the primer mix, or deterioration from improper storage conditions.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mike H posted this 17 December 2018

Thanks Ed,KF headstamped 303 British ammo over here in Australia is prone to hangfires,I wouldn’t use it.

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Eutectic posted this 17 December 2018

I know you are shooting those groups single action. The Colts of that era which I have handled have also had very nice smooth double action pulls. Those guns were assembled by workers who cared and even the service models were quite good.

A great find and a good shooter.

 

Steve

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Ed Harris posted this 17 December 2018

I know you are shooting those groups single action. The Colts of that era which I have handled have also had very nice smooth double action pulls. Those guns were assembled by workers who cared and even the service models were quite good.

A great find and a good shooter.

 Steve

 

All goes to show that an old gun that works is worth more than a new one which doesn't.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 17 December 2018

Thanks Ed,KF headstamped 303 British ammo over here in Australia is prone to hangfires,I wouldn’t use it.

 

 

KF Kirkee Arsenal, Poona-3, Kirkee, India

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 17 December 2018

The old ammo is more accurate than the stuff they make now.  I also want to shoot the old guns with the ammo they were made for.  In particular I want to benchmark "pre lawyer" classic loads to have a target velocity to approximate with my handloads.

When I acquire these old boxes at estate sales, etc. they don't sell for collector ammo prices.  Cost per box is less than new ammo, or else I won't buy it. The lots I buy are usually less expensive and of better quality than current production.  I picked up 950 rounds of Rem-UMC headstamped 148-grain Targetmaster wadcutter from the 1940s for $400 shipped.  I then sold the vintage wooden crate it came in, with the antique Railway Express shipping label to its WW2 destination for $100.  Made the ammo much cheaper.

When I am done I auction off the collectible empty boxes or take them to gun shows where people are usually happy to pay $10 for a vintage box to put on their shelf.  Makes the net cost on the old ammo quite affordable.

And how else are you going to find .38 Special cases with large primer pockets for experiments?

 

Well, I figured you had a good reason, that's why I asked.  (sigh) So I can add ammo to my long list of things including Craftsman tools, cars, houses, fishing reels, wheel wights, etc. that "they don't make it like they used to".  And Little Dandy powder measures.  At least on the other side of the coin, we can get better molds than we could in the past. 

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Ed Harris posted this 17 December 2018

 know you are shooting those groups single action. The Colts of that era which I have handled have also had very nice smooth double action pulls. Those guns were assembled by workers who cared and even the service models were quite good.

A great find and a good shooter. 

Steve

 

Absolutely!  And the S&Ws of that era were also beautifully turned out and shoot well.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BigMan54 posted this 19 December 2018

Ed,

Thank you very much.

I have a 6" Model 10 from the 1960's.  Shoot's every bit at sweet as my Colt O.P. , it's a early Post War revolver.  

Have to shoot a different load in each to hit POI. But both loads use 3.5grs of Bullseye.  Just different weight bullets, the previous owner of the model 10 filed down the front sight. 

But they are both sweet revolvers. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 December 2018

For the average guy the S&Ws are much easier to work on.  Dave Reiss has a couple good articles on basic tune-up of the S&W which appeared in The Fouling Shot.  Brownell's can supply the tools and there are a bunch of YouTube videos which explain their use.

Colts are a different breed of cat, and unless you are patient and methodical to develop an understanding of how the parts interact - changing one part usually affects others too! - Colt tinkering is best left to professionals.

Sandy Garrett at Northern VA Gun Works does my Colt Work.

https://americanpistolsmithsguild.com/members/sandy-garrett/ 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 December 2018

...Have to shoot a different load in each to hit POI. But both loads use 3.5grs of Bullseye.  Just different weight bullets, the previous owner of the model 10 filed down the front sight...

 

THAT is exactly why Tom produced a whole progression of .38 bullets of different weights, so that people can choose a bullet of shape which feeds in lever-action cowboy guns, with large meplat for good game performance.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-142H-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-151H-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-155D-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-159H-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-178D-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-190T-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-193D-D.png

 

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BigMan54 posted this 20 December 2018

Ed,

Thanks, but I'm very fortunate that the 2 OLD Lyman 4cav molds cast a bullet that works in each Revolver. Just a fluke, one powder charge, 2 different bullets. The M-10 shoots the #358477 very well. My old K-38 likes the 150gr #358477 too.

That leaves the #359429 for the O.P. 

I haven't cast a WC in 35+ years. Every since I discovered I just couldn't cast a WC that was more accurate then a  Hornady swaged WC. Used my stash of once-fired W-W wadcutter cases. Stole 6 boxes of brass cases from my DAD'S stash when he wasn't looking.  

Tried "half" sizing in a steel die, minimum flare, just enough crimp to close the case mouth.  

Weighed every bullet, every single one matched perfect. Cast 20/1 

And in those days the LAPD Harbor Range was open to the Public. Solid bench, 25yrds & semi-enclosed with no wind.  Wish I was a target saver.

Groups with the swaged were always smaller with swaged, cast lost every time.

Now I don't have the ability to shoot even remotely that well. I'm just happy to keep all my shots in the black at 50ft.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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ALYMAN#1 posted this 04 January 2019

For Tom Acheson - I seem to remember reading that S&W 52 barrels were close to the same as 9MM specs, based on M39 specs.  Don't ask me where I saw it.  My 52-2 slugged at 0.353- 0.3538.  Just info.

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Chargar posted this 07 January 2019

The 38 Special "Service Revolver", makes my heart go pitty pat. I have great examples  of both Colt and Smith & Wesson. They are true delights to own and shoot. IMHO the old model Colt Trooper and the Smith and Wesson Combat Masterpiece were the high water mark for the 38 Special service pistols.

 

 

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