Evil Fouling

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  • Last Post 31 October 2017
John Alexander posted this 18 September 2017

I am shooting a 223R load of 6 grains of TiteGroup, WSR, LBT Blue, and 84 grain bullet and getting hard black fouling that makes the first patch with solvent hard to get through the bore.  It causes five shot groups to go from sub minute to 2-3 minutes usually by the third group but sometimes a bit later.  It comes out easily with wet patch -- brush -- dry patch and takes one fouling shot to be ready for another good group. There is no indication of true leading.  Only the tiniest flecks of lead can be seen in good light on the first patch and none later.

In last week's CBA nationals I cleaned after every target card as a stopgap measure (max of about 15 shots between bore cleaning) l think that helped get me in the money although I didn't win my class.  I hated the cleaning.  More importantly I can't believe that if those two inch fliers come at shot  # 12 or #18 that earlier shots aren't affected as well. 

I am going to shoot strings of groups with different components.  My goal is to find an accurate load that doesn't require bore cleaning. Any suggestions as to which components are less likely to foul would be appreciated.

 I know this is possible because in the early 1980 I went the whole  season a couple of times without ANY bore cleaning (2,000 -- 3,000 rounds). I know that a few others have done the same. Load was 72 grain bullet, CCI 450,and 9 grains of old first batch surplus 5744.  Even with the hot primers there were always unburned power grains but it shot well all season and a bore cleaning at the end didn't improve groups.  That ended when 5744 changed and I got hard black fouling.

Any advice is welcome.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 31 October 2017

 hi OU812 .....  thanks for posting the targets .... i am following your experiments and hopefully i am thereby getting closer to someday getting a 1 inch group of more than 3 shots ...  anyway,  i must be audio-video oriented ...  looking at targets is an " aha ! " moment for me ...

my latest fantasy has moved from a 6mm to a  7mm of some sort .....  those little 22, at least under 60 grains, are too small for my old fingers .

as usual, i have molds for 7mm but no current rifle ... yet .... funny how that works ...

ken

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OU812 posted this 30 October 2017

Evil temperature drop from 80 to 50 degrees caused groups to open. I had to increase powder charge from 14grains to 14.5 for grouping to return to normal. Now I see why some competitive shooters reload at range. 

I will work more with Hodgdon's 4198 (extreme series). They say it is less temperature sensitive.

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OU812 posted this 11 October 2017

Factory rifle, your bullet and the less recoiling 223 really does have potential to whip on those heavy bench guns.smile

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John Alexander posted this 11 October 2017

You are right, those are impressive groups.  

The fourth group may have been caused by worsening conditions.

I plan to try harder bullets as well as 4198. Not much point in trying 4759 until they start making some.  I only have half a can.

Keep the news of your groups coming.

John

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OU812 posted this 11 October 2017

John, I believe 4759 powder and Lino will work verygood in your 1/9" twist barrels.

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OU812 posted this 11 October 2017

I also tried several different primer brands with this load of 4198. The Winchester Small Rifle primer works best.

Primers tested:

CCI Bench Rest

Federal Match

Wolf

Winchester Small Rifle (winner with this load).

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OU812 posted this 11 October 2017

 

Here are the results after shooting 20 shots (four 5 round groups) without cleaning barrel. Group #1 was shot from cold clean barrel (no foulers shot before hand). Notice group #4 opened after 15 rounds. I used LBT lube in groove and thin coat of alox smeared on bore ride surface. Harder Linotype, bumping and more velocity has improved my grouping a lot. 

Barrel was hot (mirage) and sun glare on scope was bad by group four.

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OU812 posted this 07 October 2017

Today I shot some very impressive groups using linotype and 14 grs of old IMR 4198 powder. Velocity average is 2040 fps from the 1/12" twist barrel. Bullets bore ride section bumped to a more round .2221 diameter. Band diameter .2265 after bumping. 

I shot several 7 round groups (two foulers) . Pushing wet patch down barrel followed by a dry patch between groups. Next test I will shoot 20 rounds (four 5 round groups) without cleaning to see if groups open or shift and check for hard fouling. 

Lapua cases

Winchester SR primer

old IMR 4198

LBT Blue soft

Your shortened NOE 80gr. bullet

Do you have any IMR 4759 or 4198 powder? I notice a couple of shooters listed in The Fouling Shot use these two powders also...along with harder linotype and your 80 gr. bullet. Both of these powders will also work with softer alloys.

Beefier Gator gas checks grip the hard 22 caliber linotype bullet much better than the thinner Hornadays (flyers). The tighter bullet to bore fit of Gator gas check and hard linotype will reduce fouling.

What size bore ride do you need? smile I can bump 50 linotype bullets in about 25 minutes.

 

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GP Idaho posted this 07 October 2017

John and Ken: Just a short note here to answer a few questions then I can take this to PMs so not to bore the less interested. PC usually increases the bullets size from .0015 to .0025 with some exceptions. Just for a fouling test we could move away from the 22s for a bit and coat some 30s like Ed's C312-155-2R or the 160 version. For bore riders, I now use the NOE sizing system. With the bushings you can make the nose or drive bands any size you like, within reason. With PC you start small and coat up, then resize if necessary to fit.  One thing that is most likely to cause problems is PC is easily scraped with sharp edges so you may need to expand just a bit more than usual. The Noe system has expansion plugs that work like M-dies and are available in .001 steps for the perfect fit. Yes Ken, the bullets can be sized a small amount on the nose after coating and a bit more on the bands for the finish fit.  I'm not a competitive shooter so you would need to be the judge as to accuracy potential. The bullets coated shoot better than I can. Gp

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 October 2017

gp and john a ... can you size the already coated bullets ... maybe just 1/2 thou ?? ... just curious   if you can shoot them it seems you could size them .

ken

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John Alexander posted this 06 October 2017

LMG -- Thank you for the suggestions.  I haven't tried a different lube yet put plan to.  Softer may be better.  I just recently tried Blue Dot and will also try the other powders you suggest.

John

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John Alexander posted this 06 October 2017

GP Idaho --  Always willing to try something new.  If I remember correctly you powder coated some of my bullets for me before. When they came back they were beautiful,  but I had stupidly sent you bullets with bore riding noses  already close to bore size and the coating made the diameter too large to chamber. I also more recently tried powder coated bullet from a shooter who was using them in a rifle identical to mine with good results and they too were too big to chamber.

I appreciate your offer but we probably should go back and fourth about the bullet before you send them.  I am still feeling guilty about wasting your time and powder the last time. What is the least thickness of the coating that is practical to put on?

John

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Larry Gibson posted this 06 October 2017

John

 

My suggestion is to change lubes to a softer lube such as White Labels NRA 50/50.  I have tested LBT Blue numerous times from low velocity to high velocity and find sometimes it works  well and other times it performs just as you described.  I never got it to perform well in the 223. 

 

Also, if you change powders you may want to look a little slower burning powder such as 2400, 4227 or 5744.  Some even prefer BlueDot. 

 

LMG 

Concealment is not cover.........

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GP Idaho posted this 06 October 2017

John; As you have tried things that should work and some that shouldn't, I would like to send you a "care packet" If you're open to giving it a try PM me your address and I'll send along a sampling of powder coated 22cal. bullets. (or any other caliber of your choice) First, it will most likely cure your fouling problems to meet your season long goal and then we can work on variation for accuracy. When everything that should work doesn't, try something that shouldn't and it just might. Gp

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 October 2017

looking through some early FS that i discovered in my stash ... i see that some of the top shooters back then ( 1981 ) were using H110 even in their 308 win.  ( elmer shook for one  ... 17-18 gr. ... impressive shooting ) ....  seems that i recall that later it was decided that h110 in " medium  " loads might be suspect safety-wise .....  but other than that, while you are trying ball powders, you might pour some H110 ... it might be a good choice for 2200-2400 fps in a 223 ...

note it is a top choice in 22 hornet for full power mj ... also 38 spec-357-44 mag range.

ken

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John Alexander posted this 06 October 2017

I will try the ball powders again.  Tried some 748.  I think I've got some AA#2.  Thanks.

John

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billw_willy posted this 05 October 2017

John, It looks like flake powders do that, changed from BE, GD and  Unique long ago to Olin 231 and then to AA#2(Two) ball powder that shoots clean, with 5.5-6 gr in 222 with 225438 44g GC heat treated, gave 1800+ MV 1.5" groups, sometimes less than 1" at 100 and not so good at 200, Rem 700 twist was 1:14, need 1:9 or  1:7 for CB and heavier like yours for 200 yd shooting. Someone stole my rifle with 20X Unertl and 4 others of 19 sooty, greasy long guns after a big house fire, miss that one with custom bbl same twist. Several CB friends now use AA#2 in many calibers up to 45-70. Start low, work up to accuracy, avoid vertical stringers and get desired MV. Let us know how you do.

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John Alexander posted this 30 September 2017

I have fired more groups with substituted components in my effort to find a combination that needs less frequent bore cleaning.  All bullets fired this time were from my cull pile (unevenly rounded base edges, some with wrinkles, and first few bullets out of a cold mold which tend to be light).

Control load but  without LLA on noses -- first two groups averaged 1.09 moa and second two 1.25 for an increase of 23%.  I will do more shooting to confirm, but it doesn't look like the LLA is the problem. 

Control load but with Rem 71/2 primers - rerun. The first try, reported earlier, seemed to indicate that the change in primers degraded the accuracy of the first two groups after cleaning from about .85 moa to I.28 moa an increase of 47%. I was skeptical that change in primers would cause such a big difference and didn't want to slander Remington on thin evidence so I did it over .  This time the first two groups averaged .91 moa -- not significantly different from the WSR groups of .85 moa.

Once again I have been hit over the head with the hard fact that if I think I have determined  the best load on the basis of a couple of groups of each (even sometimes when the difference in those loads is pretty big) there is a good chance that I am kidding myself and if I shoot more groups the results of the two loads may be the same or even reversed.   

Note that none of the ten groups fired this time did too badly (all well below 1.5 moa) with second rate bullets that many "authorities" would insist should be remelted -- even for use in a 2 or 3 moa rifle. Some of the sacred bases were pretty uneven and sorry looking but with gas checks shot well.

John

 

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John Alexander posted this 24 September 2017

Steve/Ed,

I have been leery of the LLA and will explore loads without the stuff.  The loads being tested (1,550 fps are certainly not high velocity loads but it is a heavy for caliber bullet. I have no idea of the peak pressure of a fast burning powder behind a heavy  bullet, but it could be higher than expected. I will check out a similar load without LLA.

For the record -- The load involved is 6 grains of TiteGroup, WSR primer, 84 grain bullet w/LBT in only the gap ahead of the gas check and LLA on nose in a 6 pound 223 Tikka T3 Lite.

I have discovered an error in yesterday's  post reporting the recent shooting and have changed it.  The percentage increase in group size between the first two groups and the second two groups was 11% for both the 700X load and the Remington primer load.  This compared to  33% for the control load which indicated that both fouled less than the control load but still fouled somewhat.  A lot more shots probably need to be fired to have confidence that this is true.

John

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OU812 posted this 24 September 2017

Johnson's Paste Wax sounds easy.

Thompson's bore butter

LBT thinned with Peanut oil.

SPG lube

45-45-10 with LBT

no lube on bore ride

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