Good Info On Correct Use of Fillers - Thank You Larry Gibson!

  • 561 Views
  • Last Post 5 days ago
  • Topic Is Solved
Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

The-proper-use-of-fillers

Good discussion if you haven't been over there.  Thanks to Larry.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Scearcy posted this 2 weeks ago

Larry/Ed

That is a great discussion of the use of fillers. One question though - does any of this change significantly in a much smaller bore like 6MM or .224?

Jim

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

I'm not the right guy to ask that question. 

I would defer that to John Alexander or another of the guys who works with the smaller bores. 

My educated guess is that the generalities would probably hold true, but in the smaller bore less filler is needed.

Anybody with hands-on knowledge of this PLEASE step in!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

I expect we have a good many new forum users here who left "The Other" forum for whatever reason.

As long as people act like adults and play well with others all are welcome here.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 2 weeks ago

I still use BPI Original Filler for the reasons I discuss and describe in my method in the post.

Gary

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • JeffinNZ
OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

I have read that used dried coffee granules can be used. Measured and thrown from powder dispenser.

Attached Files

JeffinNZ posted this 2 weeks ago

My Carcano goes very well with 25gr H4350 topped with 9gr of BPI buffer and either a 140 or 170gr bullet with a crimp. 

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 2 weeks ago

I would like to read the discussion. Where is it?

John

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

Click on the hyperlink on my first post - if that doesn't work for you, here is Larry's post over there which started the discussion:

 

I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best "filler". I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder....I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it "right". Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is "cheap" or because "they have a lot of it". There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually "no data" available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them. 

I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc. with lighter medium weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 140 - 165 gr bullets in .30/.31 cals of 30-30 through '06 case capacity), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 170 - 220+ gr bullets in .30/.31 cals. Those examples are for the .30/.31 cals but the same guidance applies to other calibers. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet. 

The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr. 

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks. 

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right. 

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until all the dacron is at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron. 

What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet. 

A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals. With the charged cases in a loading block I simply hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and push it in with the rod. It is quite easy and a lot of “precision is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down.

Larry Gibson

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 2 weeks ago

Thanks Ed.  I didn't notice the hyperlink.

John

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 2 weeks ago

In the latest (July 2018) Shooting Times, former Speer ballistician Allan Jones discusses fillers for reduced loads.  Although the method of filler he mostly speaks of is something he calls puff balls (a wad of dacron or other fluff) pushed down on the powder as opposed the Larry's method of filler involves "filling" the space between powder and bullet with the fluff under some compression and Gary's method involved granular filler.

However, he reports lots of chamber ringing which Larry and Gary apparently avoid.

It would be nice to have a very clear description of what kind of filler might cause chamber ringing because one person's "filling the space" might be another's "wad of dacron." At least shooters should be aware that using fillers in certain ways can lead to chamber ringing.  Is avoiding air space between the filler and base of the bullet what avoids ringing chambers?  I seem to remember that Ed Harris mentioned trouble with chamber ringing at some time.

I would also like to hear more evidence of the need for fillers based on shooting trials. I could never get any improvement out of them but if others get improvements in accuracy, maybe i should reconsider not using them for the last 25 years -- anything to beat those misguided 30 caliber competitors.

John

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 1 weeks ago

I did LOTS of testing with fillers when I was at Ruger, because a great many .45-70 rifles were received in customer service with ringed chambers, many rifles with multiple rings which corresponded to the base location of different weight bullets.

Using dense powders like #2400 and pushing a "puff ball" down tight on the powder I could ring a .45-70 chamber predictably.  It seldom occurred on the first shot, but would be obvious within a box or so of ammo.  Pushing a puff ball down onto the powder is never a good idea because the wad becomes a projectile and the bullet base a bore obstruction.  This condition was most pronounced in straight-walled cases, but could be reproduced also in bottlenecked cases like the .30-'06 if the bullet base was well up in the neck, as it normally would be with a 150-170 grain cast load seated out to contact the rifling.

The loose, fluffy method, using the minimum fiber needed to achieve ballistic uniformity, in which no visible "fluff" can be seen ejected from the muzzle is correct.

Normally I shun fillers and would prefer a powder which gives good ballistic uniformity without it.  However, in loading for the Garand in .30-'06 loading a fluffy filler reduces velocity variation which would otherwise take place given variations in powder position.  While slow-fire stages permit orienting the powder to the rear of the case, semi-auto operation forcibly positions the charge forward, and grouping is absolutely improved by use of filler in the Garand, which I consider a very specialized case where fillers are desirable.

 

 

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 1 weeks ago

ED:

I have personally seen the exact condition of chamber ringing that you describe in an 1874 Shiloh Sharps 45-70. This rifle had been owned by a deceased club member and was purchased on his estate sale by another club member. The new owner noticed some resistance when extracting a fired case and on closer inspection, could see rings in the chamber. So the rifle was sent back to Shiloh for a rebarrel.

When the rifle was returned, included was a short section of the breach of the original barrel that had been milled in half revealing two clearly visible rings in the chamber right where the base of a bullet would have been. Now it was unknown of course what the first owner had used for loads or what had caused the rings, black or smokeless. But this club is exclusively black and lead bullets as far as any organized BPCR shooting go's. 

I have never used any kind of filler and never will. Preferring to experiment with different powders to find acceptable results.

 

R.    

Attached Files

lotech posted this 1 weeks ago

I don't use fillers, but won't criticize those that do because many of them have put much effort into research and work that validly supports their conclusions. However, it seems that finding and using the most appropriate powder would negate any need for a filler. Is that an incorrect assumption?   

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 1 weeks ago

Wayne?? of R.I., a CBA founder,  shot at Old Colony in the 80's; we argued about fillers, he was con, I was pro-strongly.

I stuffed pounds of dacron onto powder. Slowly I moved away, now it's years-decades-since I used fillers regularly. Wayne?? was right.

joe b. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
Larry Gibson posted this 1 weeks ago

I am offering this as information/explanation only, I am not trying to convince anyone to use a filler or to not use a filler.

We see here in this discussion, as usual with this topic, that the use of a "wad"  in cast bullet loads has/is being lumped in with the meaning of what the word "filler" means.  There is a distinct difference between the two.  John Alexander and Ed Harris describe the difference in their posts.  Keep in mind I do not recommend the use of a wad of any material.  I only recommend the use of Dacron, kapok and the poly fillers (such as "original", Pufflon and GREX) be used as fillers given certain criteria.  That is specified in my post on another forum which Ed has reposted here. 

I do not always use a filler. I shoot many loads (more than with a filler actually) using appropriate powders that do not need a filler to ignite and burn efficiently and consistently.  When to use a filler (I prefer Dacron) is dictated by the powder's burn rate, the load density, the weight of the bullet and the desired velocity level. 

I do not use other fillers (coffee, COW, other cereals or other inert or organic materials) because my pressure testing of many have revealed inconsistent and some times dangerous levels of pressure are produced.

I do not use, nor recommend, the use of a wad of any material to hold the powder, especially the faster burning pistol and shotgun powders, back against the primer leaving an air/empty space between the wad and the base of the bullet.  Doing thus, loading for lower velocity, with medium to heavy bullets for caliber is the primary cause of "ringing" in my estimation.   

As an example using the 30-06 with cast bullets;

if a 170 - 220 gr cast bullet is being used with 4895 powder seeking the best accuracy I recommend the use of a Dacron filler (3/4 - 1 gr).  That will cause the 4895 to ignite and burn consistently giving velocities in the 1700 to 1940 fps range where the best accuracy will be found with that combination. 

If a 140 - 165 gr cast bullet is being used and it is desired to push to 1800 - 2000 fps I would not recommend 4895 as it most often will not ignited and burn efficiently even with the Dacron filler because the lower mass of the bullet will not allow the pressure to rise to its efficient burning level.  A faster burning powders such as 2400, 4227, 4198, Rl7 and perhaps even 3031 would be recommended.  There are other powders also but you get the idea of the burning range. With those the load density is low (less than 80%) so the Dacron filler is advised.

If a 90 - 130 gr cast bullet is being used with desired velocity in the 1200 - 1500 fps range +/- then I recommend a faster powders in the burning range of Unique to Blue Dot. No filler should be needed or used.

With 90 - 220 gr cast bullets in the 600 t0 100 fps range I recommend Bullseye or Red Dot.  No filler is needed or should be used.

Let me add too that the style of shooting one does can also affect whether a filler is needed or not.  If bench shooting where the rifle stays in position the use of many powder/bullet combos do not need a filler if the loading procedure for each round is consistent, particularly if the loading procedure positions the powder consistently at the rear of the case.  This also can be done when position shooting, as mentioned in another post, during slow fire events.  However, as also previously mentioned, if used in repeating guns which load from the magazine, w/o such consistent positioning of the powder, the benefit of the filler becomes self apparent in the improved accuracy.   When hunting or field shooting where the rifle may be shouldered from any carry position the filler keeps the powder consistently positioned for better accuracy also.

Thus we see the use of a filler is not applicable in all loading situations.  It is applicable where beneficial.

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
John Alexander posted this 1 weeks ago

I think the follow up discussion has put fillers and what some are calling fillers in perspective and will give fair warning for when filters may possibly be helpful and when some things commonly called filters may ruin your rifle.

Larry's definition of the dangerous type of fiber use as "wads"  or Ed's and Allan Jones's term of  "puffballs" is a good idea but shooters should be aware that this type of use is often called "filler" including in the title and body of Jones's article.

Thanks to all for making the distinction clear and possibly avoiding some ringed chambers.

John

 

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 1 weeks ago

This is a subject which needs to be repeated from time to time for the passing parade who didn't "read the memo."  Thanks again Larry for the clarification. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 1 weeks ago

What is a ringed chamber or chamber ringing?

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 1 weeks ago

Thanks Larry for clarifying the difference between "filers" and "wads" and their use in reloading. After reading your latest reply and re-reading my post regarding that Shiloh Sharps 45-70 I can see where there  could be some confusion with what I wrote.

My motivation was Ed's description of those ringed chambers which were exactly the same as that sectioned 45-70 barrel. And even though this club's members that I knew loaded black in their BPC rifles exclusively, We will never know for sure what the original owner did to cause that ringed chamber in the 45-70. 

It could have been the improper use of wads while loading BP or smokeless or fillers or some other combination. But I think that it is safe to say  that the original owner did something out of the ordinary to cause those rings.

What ever the cause, that is why, being the overly cautious pigrim that I am,  have chosen a long time ago to stick with the commonly accepted loading procedures, both with smokeless and black.

Hope this makes my post a little clearer. 

 

R.

 

 

 

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 6 days ago

Do NOT USE DACRON OR ANY FUZZ BALL FILLER! THEY ALMOST GUARANTEE A RINGED AND RUINED BARREL!

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/99-ask-veral-smith-lbt-q/160462-fillers-light-loads.html

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Close