Groundhog Ammunition

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  • Last Post 02 June 2017
Scearcy posted this 31 March 2017

The signup sheets have started arriving so if anyone feels like sharing or discussing their groundhog ammo, here is the thread. Once again Ken the instigator put me up to it.

Here are 150 little beauties that shoot well but lead like Hades. 

Jim

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onondaga posted this 01 April 2017

It is just a matter of basics to solve any leading problem. Do you know the source and reason of the leading? It is pretty easy to figure out:

1) bullet to chamber fit less than ink verified slide fit equals elevated leading potential

2) Load level in psi is higher than bullet ultimate strength in psi equals elevated leading potential

3) bullets too hard for load level are shaved by rifling equals leading

4) Bore finish less than about a shiny 500 grit finish abrades lead and attracts it to stay on surfaces equals leading

 

Gary

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Scearcy posted this 03 April 2017

Have spent the last few days lubing and sizing the bullets a little differently. While I haven't settled on the final configuration both straight .3095 and .3095 on the front two bands and the back two unsized seem to work ok. intuitively the stepped sizing is appealing .3095 controls the leading also and is easier to do obviously.

I tried 4 different powders today. The lightest load was 5.5 gr of Bullseye. This load would not stabilize the bullet at 100 yd.

I'll post some targets later.

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Scearcy posted this 03 April 2017

Her

 

Here are the other three targets using Unique, 2400 and 4759. I will retry BE with a 6 gr load in the future.

Jim

Jim

 

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Bohica793 posted this 04 April 2017

What velocities are you seeing out of these loads?

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Scearcy posted this 04 April 2017

I haven't taken the chrono out of moth balls yet this spring but I will soon as I was wondering the exact same thing. These four loads did not behave as though they were very similar. I like the Unique load and I think about 13.5 gr of 4759 will be good.  I was getting a little blow back with the 13 gr load. I expect those loads to be in the 1200 fps range but I need to check that. BTW it looks like both loads will be more than good enough at 50 yards. Gotta love the 3006.

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 04 April 2017

I am glad you asked. A person should always check the chrono I suppose.  10 gr of unique - 1349 fps with about 45 ES. 13.5 IMR 4759 = 1120 fps with almost 200 ES!  The loads which were “out” were less than 1000 fps.

I am going to try 9-9.5 of unique. Don't need 1350 fps.

The only thing I can figure out with the 4759 is that it is extremely position sensitive with this light of a load. This may explain the tail of lower and unstable shots on yesterday's target.

I am going to chrono 12 and 13 gr of 2400 as well as 6 gr of BE. The BE load seems light but I believe that it was Ed Harris who suggested that load  so it warrants a longer look for sure.

The more I learn, the less I know.

Jim

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Bohica793 posted this 05 April 2017

I have been working with loads at 1600-1800fps in both the 7.62x54R and the 38-55 but your post is making me reconsider my velocity choice.  I have never attempted to push anything smaller than a 45-70 that slowly but there is a first time for everything.

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Scearcy posted this 05 April 2017

Learn from my mistakes, don't follow them.  Seriously, I am not knowledgable with PB.  I can tell you that 1600-1800 is the velocity range I target when using GC bullets for matches. What I am looking for here is 1 step faster than a gallery load. 

When I am targeting 1700 fps I do use a harder alloy than I am using for the PB loads.

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 05 April 2017

6 gr Bullseye = 1,057 fps, std=16

14.5 gr 4759 = 1,216 fps, std=28

12 gr 2400= 1,245 fps, std=27

don't forget the 10 gr of unique =1,349 fps load from above.

I believe I will increase the 4759 load to 15 gr and maybe the 2400 load to 12.5 or 13 gr.

Frankly I think any of these will be just fine at 50 yards. 

I have never used filler. Would a pea sized tuft help these loads?

What are the rest of you guys doing?

Jim

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bushranch posted this 05 April 2017

Going to try the .250 Savage . Rifle is a M 99 EG with bead front sight & Lyman windage adjustable tang. This is a rifle that should be used more and I now have a reason!! Only Pb bullet I have is the RCBS 85 grain CB . I am looking for something about 1400 FPS and perhaps the Savage slow twist 1/14 is a blessing at this time? Published .250 85 grain Pb loads are difficult to find but the stack of old Ideal Hand Books came through . Number 38 shows the 85 gr 257283 at 1300 FPS with 8.0 grains of 4759. 8 grains of 1984 era Hercules 2400 seemed to shoot well in past years. Perhaps there is something better and a little more velocity would be OK . Have loaded test rounds with 8.6 grains of the above 2400 , 4759 , and 4227 . Will see... Backup is a old Winchester 94 rifle using the RCBS  150 grain Pb CB. (Thanks Norm)  This is a great Pb bullet that likely doesn't get the attention it should. Best 30-30 load with it is 18 grains of H4895 with WLR. It is a bit dirty . I pull a nylon brush through after shooting and that is all it takes. Mix is about 20-1 .

 

Rus

 

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RicinYakima posted this 05 April 2017

Jim, My first loads are 10.5 grains of SR7625, a notch slower than Unique in big cases. Bullets are 311241, 150 grain, and Accurate clone 311440 (PB).

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Bohica793 posted this 09 April 2017

Just got back from testing 16gr of IMR4227 in the 38-55 under an Accurate 38-250D 250gr RNFP.  I discovered just how position sensitive IMR4227 is, ranging from 1230 to 1470fps depending on if I elevate the muzzle prior to shooting each round or not.  Regardless of the velocity differences, the round proved to be very accurate at 50 yards.  I'll be retesting with 13gr using a small wad next.  Target velocity is the 1200 range.

 

Meanwhile, the Type 54 is bringing me to tears.  With jacketed 170's, it produces MOA accuracy.  With 200gr cast at 1600fps, it produces minute of aircraft carrier at 50 yards (seriously, 4 FOOT groups).  Have ordered a 170 grain mold but will try slowing this one down to the 1200 range as well to see if I can get anything to group in the same zip code.

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Scearcy posted this 10 April 2017

I gather they were not tears of joy. What is the twist rate of the Type 54? I am not familiar with that rifle.

Jim

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Bohica793 posted this 10 April 2017

Twist rate is 1:9.5 and no, they were not tears of joy.  This is the Chinese variant of the Russian Mosin Nagant M44 carbine.

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Scearcy posted this 11 April 2017

 

For this 50 yard game we are playing, I have settled on the classic plinker recipe: short, fat, soft and slow.

Come to think of it, that recipe applies to this rifleman too.

Jim

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Bohica793 posted this 11 April 2017

One sympathizes......

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45 2.1 posted this 11 April 2017

Plinking loads used to be very easy.... that is until everyone used too hard an alloy. The problem is using a hard alloy with an undersize bullet. Use a alloy the factory uses to swage wadcutters and you won't have problems any longer. Persist with hard alloys and you will. If you want proof, I can direct you to a site where an individual posts 50 yard groups that are tight cloverleafs out of scoped rifles with plinking loads...... and he isn't doing anything that hasn't been done by a lot of people.

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Scearcy posted this 11 April 2017

Its been a poor few days to go to the range.  We got 3” of snow last night! When it warms up a bit I am going to try a couple of these plinking loads at 100 yd with a HB 3006. They should shoot into 1 1/2” or less with that rifle. 

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John Alexander posted this 11 April 2017

45 2.1 speaks the truth.

Yes harder alloys are needed for high velocity loads but more shooters seem to be shooting alloys that are too hard than the opposite.

I believe a lot of the problems shooters have problems leading to the belief that it is hard to shoot CBs well in 22s is because of the conventional wisdom (that happens to be false) that it takes a hard alloy to shoot well in the small bores. Just because it has been repeated doesn't mean its true.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 April 2017

when i think of a possible strategy for 50 yard plinkers .... it is hard to ignore the simplicity of the 22 rimfire ...short, soft, slow, and in my experience, fitting the throat very snugly is best .  so yes::   FAT .   so the secret code is::   SSSF

the only drawback in plinking with slower SSSF ( <1300 fps ) bullets is that they don't blow up water filled cans so wonderfully .  holes in paper not much difference .  heh .

ken

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Bohica793 posted this 12 April 2017

13 gr of IMR-4227 with a small TP wad in the 38-55 with a 250gr RNFP produces 1125 fps average and puts everything in a 2 inch circle at 50 yards.  Still seeing velocity variances so I think my wad is not big enough but it works well enough it seems.

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bushranch posted this 12 April 2017

.250 Savage update - tested the loads in previous post ( 8.6 grains of 2400 ,4227 & 4759 ) with the RCBS 85 grain CB. All shot good groups hitting in the same target area. Noted slight tipping with 4227 & 4959 . 2400 was fine . Likely that 1 in 14 twist !!  Will stay with 2400 . No indication of leading with the short-fat-soft  (20-1) bullet .

Little History - First cast attempt with this rifle was about 1970 when I obtained Lyman 257418 , likely the worst combination of slow twist and long bullet I could have come up with . Cast in Revolvers worked fine and I pretty well wrote rifles off. I met a older Gentleman at the range shooting a Winchester Rifle 94 with 311291 . His load was 28 grains of 3031 and it really worked. He was willing to share and I was on my way. Found a few of those bullets and shot two yesterday just to see... Same results keyholes and 2 foot spread. CBA information today is at our fingertips ...and that is a good thing..

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Scearcy posted this 13 April 2017

Do you have any Unique sitting around? It might solve your problem with position sensitivity.  I have never tried wads so I can't be much help. 2” groups will keep you in the 10 circle if you are well centered.

Jim

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Bohica793 posted this 13 April 2017

I have never used Unique but I may need to pick up a pound to try.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 April 2017

ok, i think my racecar might have a flat tire.  in preparation for the 30 cal groundhog shoot .. and given that i am 3 weeks behind in my shop, feeling guilty... and all my lead supply is unknown scrap ( great for 35 yard plinking ) ...i broke my own rule and ...er ... ordered some commercial bullets ... they arrived today ... ah ... now i remember why i made that rule.

first the good news:  excellent service and nicely made ... 500 count all alike ... 130 grain round flat nose plain base ... great for 50 yard woodchucks ... nice and round too ... nice flat bases  ...  lucky me . 

supposed to be groove part at 0.310 ... mikes at 0.3075 nominal.  oops ... the long nose mikes  0.297-8 .  are round tho .  oh, they are hardball alloy ... heh ...

my wife reminded me i have perfectly good rcbs, lbt, etc. 3o cal molds ...  could i have gone wrong ?

i might be starting at the back of the pack ...  and my wife wants to shoot some groundhogs ...  storm clouds are gathering .....

reminds me of the movie _ letters from iwo jima _ ... from the japanese viewpoint ...

if you guys want to beat somebody that used to be good in his own mind , this might be a good shoot to enter ...

more to follow, i have no pride ...  pray for me ...

ken

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Bohica793 posted this 19 April 2017

I'm still working to find just the right loads for this shoot.  I went out this morning with the 38-55 and the 7.62x54R to test the latest version.  The 38-55 is pretty much locked in using 14gr of IMR-4227 with a 250gr RNFP cast from WW + 2% tin sized .379 and a Dacron filler.  Load chronographed at 1250fps with an ES of 26.  The proof is in the 10 shot grouping at 50 yards.

The Russian is another story.  Tested a new load consisting of 16gr of 2400 under a 170gr bore rider cast from WW + 2% tin and sized .312 chronographed at 1550fps with an ES of 65.  10 shots produced 4 actually on the 8.5x11 target at 50 yards.  This follows the 4 foot groups produced by my 200gr bullet load using IMR 4895.  I think I am about to dump this rifle and find something else.

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Scearcy posted this 19 May 2017

Time is running out soon. The targets are due the end of May. I think I am going to use 15 gr of 4759 in the scoped rifle and 7 gr of Bullseye in the iron sight rifle. Both are 3006  and using a 311291 PB bullet

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GWarden posted this 19 May 2017

I had used the 311284 in my 98 Springfield 30 40 Krag. I had never tried shooting this bullet without GC until the groundhog match, a new learning experience for me. I size the bullets at .311 and NRA lube. I dropped from my normal charge of 17.9 gr imr4227 to 16.0 gr. this gave me a velocity of 1405 fps and I was getting leading. I dropped down to 15.0 gr and had a velocity of 1315fps, and my leading was eliminated. Bullets were made of mix of 15# new lead, 25# of magnum shot +2% tin. In my 32/40 and 38/55 I use a mix of 25:1 lead/tin and always shoot PB bullets in these rifles. Both of these I shoot both breech seated and fixed ammo. My 50yd groups with the 30 40 at the 15.0 gr of 4227 were very good. Again for me shooting GC bulllets without the GC is a new learning curve for me. 

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GWarden posted this 19 May 2017

I have found the 4759 to be very position sensitive. If I tip the bbl. vs just chambering the round, my groups will be almost half as small with the bbl. being tipped vs. just chambering the round. I am looking forward to getting a NOE mould that has the 311284 PB to try in comparison to the lyman  311284 GC and shooting without the GC. Thanks again for the groundhog shoot. 

Bob 

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Scearcy posted this 20 May 2017

I don't disagree that 4759 can be position sensitive but I have a large supply that I am not using at the moment.  The ground hog target is fairly large so 4759 should be adequate for what we are trying to do.

BTW an acquaintance is shooting 4759 in his 223 and doing very well. Who knows it is probably not position sensitive in that case.

Jim

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longhunter posted this 23 May 2017

Just finished up my 2 ground hog targets.  They are in the mail.

Thanks for a great,FUN shoot.

I to shot a 311284 unchecked. Did pretty well.

scope tgt I shot a RCBS 150 CB with 

trail boss. shot better than I could!

Thank you again for a great match.

Jon

Jon Welda CW5 USA Ret. 608 797 0056

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Scearcy posted this 23 May 2017

Hey Jon,

Great to hear you had fun. I am really enjoying seeing the targets and tech info come in. At this point it looks like we may have as many as 25 targets returned. What fun and a wealth of practical data.

I am already getting questions about next year. I'll be in touch with everyone a little later about that.

Thanks for playing

Jim

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shake posted this 23 May 2017

Thanks for putting this on. It was good for me to get off the bench and shoot a rifle the way it was meant to be shot.

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Duke M posted this 24 May 2017

I have to say that I have had splendid results with the RCBS 30-150-CM in 30-30 lever guns, a Krag, and now my two Springfields and Jon's. I have read Mr. Harris' thoughts on the 6.0 gr of BE in the 06. I decided to try 6.0 gr. of Trail Boss as I treat it as a bulky Bullseye. As Jon said it will group better than we can hold from field expedient positions. The targets were mailed today.

Duke

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Bohica793 posted this 24 May 2017

Count me in for the next one.  I am already working on the next rifle for this match.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 May 2017

glad to see trailboss mentioned a couple times .... i have put off using it for several years but it keeps showing up in a variety of loads ... need to buy a can ...

can't wait to see the load data from the g-hog shooters .... hopefully we can get it into a table .... i actually read the load tables from the  * fouling shot * hoping to see patterns ( g ) ...  it does appear it is more than luck ...

... while i am running my fingers here i might mention that i wonder/wish that the top competition shooters would reveal more of their secret tricks we all know they are using to consistently be at the top of that results list ....   does it come in a can ??

ken

 

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Scearcy posted this 24 May 2017

All

I shot my first target today. I used 7.0 gr of Bullseye as suggested by Ed Harris. While getting a zero off a rest, I had no trouble holding 1 1/2" at 50 yds. The actual target w/o the bench and rest didn't go so well. I am going to try this load at 100 yds with a scoped rifle. 2-2 1/2" is about what I expect.

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 25 May 2017

It was a busy day at the mail box. We have 17 rifles submitted now. There are enough of both iron sights and scopes to separate them. If anything the irons are shooting better than the scopes, however. We are almost certain to go over 20 rifles. Thanks to all.

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 31 May 2017

The last day! I realized yesterday that we did not have a single 30-30 entered in our PB match. So I dug out a rifle I don't use very much. It is a Marlin 336T which features a straight grip and an 18 inch barrel. I had left over bullets from the 3006 and primed brass in a coffee can so it was a simple matter to load 40 for a trip to the range. I used 6 gr of BE. The rifle is equipped with both a scout scope and receiver sights. I used both and shot 2 targets with crossed sticks. It is a fun little rifle to shoot with this load. Actually I think it might make weight for the Bunny matches now that this match is over.

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 02 June 2017

It is time to post results but everything is documented on a Xcel spread sheet. Does anyone know the easiest way to post the information from a spread sheet? PDF? Document photo?

Jim

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