Groups, several rounds before it settles down.

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  • Last Post 10 August 2017
karlrudin posted this 05 August 2017

I recently went and shot in a match this past weekend. Weather was great, ammo was right on, given some of my shooting.

 

Here's my problem? Most of us get the good groups with a flyer. That seems to be a cast bullet rule, but it was taking me 5-7 rounds on the sighter target before it would tighten up to where it normally would average.

 

It also did the same thing while I was shooting for score. The only thing that changed in the shooting time with all the enviromentals was the short amount of time between the matches, 15-20 mins. Then I would have to run another 5-7 rounds to get it to settle down.

 

The end result was I ran short of ammo at the shoot. Oh well there is alwasys next time but I don't understand why such a short amount of time between relays of targets would cause this to happen. Comments please.

 

Equipement, Savage 110 reciever pillar and glass bedded, Shilen 26" full bull barrel floated, 7-08Rem using Lyman 162g bullets, w.w. with 2% Tin, gas checks glued on and Lee alox.

 

 

 

 

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Ross Smith posted this 05 August 2017

I've seen the same thing with my casual shooting. My '06 likes the barrel either hot or cold, nothing in between. Also seems to be worse in summer.  Ross

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 05 August 2017

fwiw, when playing with home-made bullet lubes, i had one lube that wold throw the first shot out about 12 moa ... then as long as i kept shooting, gave normal groups ... if i stopped shooting for 15 minutes >>> out went the first shot about 12 moa  ...

when shooting bench 22 rf, we had to shoot one a minute ... if condition was bad, shoot one in the ground ....

it seems reasonable the there could be lubes that lube great but throw ALL shots out 12 moa .... different barrel conditions every time ...

ken

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onondaga posted this 05 August 2017

 

karlrudin, you said,

"Here's my problem? Most of us get the good groups with a flyer. That seems to be a cast bullet rule, but it was taking me 5-7 rounds on the sighter target before it would tighten up to where it normally would average."

I have had the same thing and completely cured it. Consistency of the bore from shot to shot can be improved several ways. Here is what helps me:

1. If the bore is immaculate before the shot, bore condition is very different on the second shot. You can literally fool your bullet into acting like there is some minor fouling in your bore  by swabbing the clean bore lightly and evenly with Johnson's Paste Wax and leaving it undisturbed for the first shot. Use a fluffy bore mop to apply the wax lightly and leave it that way before the first shot. Get one like this in your caliber, https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1903181031/tipton-rifle-bore-cleaning-mop-8-x-32-thread-cotton

2. Shilen bores are generally nice with a fine finish but they are not polished. Polishing the bore wont change dimension but just shine and make it friendly to cast bullets. Try my polishing method without substitutions or shortcuts: https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/8364-my-bore-polish-method-to-shoot-better/

3. Before bench shooting: Start with the clean bore and wax mop it, then, after the 5th shot use a Clean/dry Boresnake and pull it through once every 5 shots to maintain match bore consistency throughout the match.

 

Gary

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358156hp posted this 06 August 2017

Ken nailed it. It sounds like your bullet lube may be letting you down. At least with the combination you're shooting at this point. I'm assuming you are ruthless with the quality inspection of your bullets.

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karlrudin posted this 06 August 2017

Well if its a bullet lube problem I don't understand. If I ran 10 bullets through it before I got any good groups, I could understand the process that it was building up to a level the barrel liked, and then started getting tighter. But, this happened on every target not just the first one. If I cleaned between every target I could also understand it. But I didn't. Basically, its like I shot 60 rounds and needed to warm or foul on each new target before tightening back up. 

Unless the fouling/bullet lube that was in the bore, since I didn't clean between targets, needed to warm up again. There is no leading in the bore nor has there ever been, so far. And the barrel itself never got hot. Not even at the breach.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 August 2017

yes, the funny lube that required continual shooting .... acted like the lube "" cooled off "" if i waited 15 minutes .... no leading ...just barrel condition changed .... 

fwiw the lube was straight k-mart lithium grease ... worked ok after it was "" warmed up ?? "" ...  the first shot went high ... real high ...

in the benchrest 22rf  the impact center would change as the barrel "" cooled "" off ...  mine almost shot high when "" cold "" .... i say * cold * ... but not sure it is exactly cold ... heavy barrel 22 rf don't exactly get "" hot ""...

 

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OU812 posted this 07 August 2017

Gary, I am listening. Do you use the Johnson's liquid wax or their paste wax to condition barrel using bore mop?

 

karlrudin, Have you tried using less alox in grooves? Maybe tumble lube using 45/45/10 would work better.

 

 

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onondaga posted this 07 August 2017

OU812

I use Johnson's Paste Wax. Specifically, I put about 1/2 teaspoon in my palm and then rub it off my hand with the fluffy bore mop by twirling it on my hand into the wax. Then I work the mop with a cleaning rod 5 times up and down in the bore and exiting at both ends of the stroke to distribute the wax evenly in the bore. I don't polish or wipe it out, I start shooting.

Gary

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karlrudin posted this 07 August 2017

So I'm using the Johnson's Paste wax to soften up the bullet lube/fouling that was left in the bore basically? Because after the shot groups the fouling of bullet lube and powder residue has hardened in the bore and causing me the problem?

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onondaga posted this 07 August 2017

karlruden, you asked,

 

"So I'm using the Johnson's Paste wax to soften up the bullet lube/fouling that was left in the bore basically?"

No, this is done to a clean barrel. The wax makes an imitation of fouling in the bore. That imitation fouling makes your first shot impact at where your shot after a fouling shot would hit. You don't fire a fouling shot. You make your first shot through imitation fouling. It has nothing to do with lube. it is a barrel preconditioning step that is used instead of a fouling shot. It is also a competitive edge that some top notch cast bullet match shooters use and it really is not a new trick. The trick is AMERICANA and early American muzzle loader match shooters did this with lube after the clean rifle was loaded with the first shot in a clean barrel. They put artificial fouling in the barrel ahead of the ball for the first shot.

 

" Because after the shot groups the fouling of bullet lube and powder residue has hardened in the bore and causing me the problem?"

No, the artificial fouling with wax before firing makes the first shot impact like the second shot you usually fire. This is method for first shot flier neutralization and reduces group size in match shooting.

Gary

 

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Ross Smith posted this 07 August 2017

very interesting, I gonna try this. I was and still am using alox. So it's the alox fouling that is warming up and cooling?????? and becoming either slick or sticky????????

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onondaga posted this 07 August 2017

Ross, you said,  "very interesting, I gonna try this. I was and still am using alox. So it's the alox fouling that is warming up and cooling?????? and becoming either slick or sticky????????"

Ross Smith   I have used Lee Liquid Alox for a first shot barrel preconditioner to imitate fouling. The JPW is easier to handle for the job than LLA as JPW doesn't soak into the mop. Either should be an even thin coat in the bore and the bore mop can be cleaned with WD40 in either case. Warming up/cooling and slick /sticky has nothing to do with the job. You are making imitation fouling before the first shot to attenuate a first shot flier problem.   Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 07 August 2017

Does your experience show that it works for jacketed bullets as well?

Most of my rifles with J bullets throw it high on first round (one goes left).

 

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onondaga posted this 07 August 2017

Does your experience show that it works for jacketed bullets as well?

Most of my rifles with J bullets throw it high on first round (one goes left).

 

YES it works with jacketed ammo shooting also. The results with cast bullets are more pronounced for me. If your rifle vertically strings shots from a clean barrel, Try my polishing method FIRST, that works a lot better for vertically stringing from a clean barrel.

Gary

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karlrudin posted this 08 August 2017

Ok since I don't have any JPW, do you think that TC Bore Butter would produce the same results?

 

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onondaga posted this 08 August 2017

The TC Bore Butter is worth a try, but I have not tested it.  Most hardware, janitorial supply,  and department stores have JPW in the floor care products and so does Amazon. I'd say that JPW definitely adheres better to barrel steel and recommend that first as an artificial fouling.

Gary

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OU812 posted this 10 August 2017

 Any thing that helps prevent powder fouling sticking to bore. I wonder if pre coating bore/bullet nose with SPG lube would work better? SPG is not too slippery. 

 http://www.shopspg.net/SPG-Small-Lube-Tin-lube-tins.htm 

Do softer cast bullets foul bore more than harder cast bullets. Seems softer would leave more traces of lead in bore or on top of hard fouling. Just thinking out loud

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karlrudin posted this 10 August 2017

I know that my bullets that are wheel weight, non water quenched do put lead in my bore, vs the water quenched one. All things being equal, bullet weight, charge weight, bullet lube etc.

 

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onondaga posted this 10 August 2017

OU812,You asked,

Do softer cast bullets foul bore more than harder cast bullets. Seems softer would leave more traces of lead in bore or on top of hard fouling. Just thinking out loud

No, being farther away in either direction than 10% in the strength of your alloy in psi than the strength of your load in psi is a primary cause of leading.  if you are farther away than 10% related to your alloy strength and load, YOUR ALLOY DOES NOT MATCH YOUR LOAD and regardless of your bullet size, you should expect leading because of alloy strength mismatch to your load.

Also, the harder the alloy is the more critical the fit is...eg: some guys shoot linotype and shoot it clean, the guys that shoot linotype and have leading have bullets that don't fit, but they generally will not listen.

 

Gary..

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