Pointed Bullets in Tubular Magazines

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  • Last Post 18 October 2018
John Alexander posted this 29 September 2018

Since I have always been nutty about guns, I probably knew that you shouldn't load pointed bullets in tubular magazines by the time I was ten. In the following 75 years i have read the same warning countless times sometimes with a graphic description of which body parts you were likely to lose if you didn't heed the warning.

I have always obeyed the rule -- only flat nose bullets with the ballistic coefficient of a brick for the ol' 30-30.

Yesterday in a conversation with David Reiss about just HOW flat nosed bullets should be for his new 25-35 to avoid blowing that pretty forend off along with a few fingers.  I didn't have a clue, but thinking about the question it occured to me that in spite of all the warnings, in that same 75 years I had never read once a description of a gun actually blowing up for that reason -hmmm? Do you suppose there has never been a novice reloader who somehow missed the warning and pulled some nice sharp GI bullets for use in his trusty Marlin? Or maybe a skeptic who wanted to shoot deer on the other side of the hollow who tried some spitizer hunting bullets? We know that there is alway a certain percentage of folks who "didn't get the word".

Does anybody know of first or second hand information of this type of accident taking place or a reference in a believable source?

Of course you can't prove a negative but David found a video on UTube of a guy doing his best to try.  They had a literal blast blazing away with a variety of calibers some with sever recoil without getting the expected disaster.

Do you suppose this danger ,which seem perfectly logical, is just another piece of baloney in the conventional wisdom of gun nuts?

John

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OU812 posted this 29 September 2018

I am sure Marlin has tested this theory. Seems they would stop making tube fed actions if a bad accident were possible? Is Marlin protected by law if there was a fatality?

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RicinYakima posted this 30 September 2018

Never seen it happen or read a reliable report. However, when primers were copper, thin and loaded with corrosive (before being shot) chemicals, it may have been possible before modern primers. I can guarantee you that Federal small pistol primers of the 1950's will pierce at less than 14,000 CUP the cups are so thin. .

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David Reiss posted this 30 September 2018

As I said to John, I can believe that many handloaders have over time loaded non-flat or round nosed bullets and shot them without incident.

In addition to that thought I took the initiative to read the current lever action manuals of Winchester, Marlin, Henry & Mossberg.

There is no mention of a warning in the Henry & Mossberg manuals.

The Winchester manual states the following:

"Use only ammunition suitable for use in a Centerfire rifle with a tubular magazine. Use only flat nose, hollow point, round nose flat point or similar bullets. Never use pointed or conical point bullets in a centerfire rifle with a tubular magazine. Failure to follow these instructions could result in injury to yourself or others, and cause damage to your firearm."

The Marlin manual says:

"WARNING! Some pointed and full metal jacket round nose bullets can chain-fire other cartridges in a tubular magazine during recoil, causing damage to firearm and potentially serious injury or death. All softnose bullets, including pointed polymer tips, can be used safety in a Marlin lever action firearms. If you are uncertain about the safety of using a particlar cartridge in your Marlin firearm."

Now is the current warnings from Marlin & Winchester just a throwback to yesteryears and a perpetuation of an old, outdated warning. I just don't know. But in this day of suing for everything, I find it hard to believe that Henry & Mossberg would not warn of this if it were a real possibility. 

Last there is factory ammunition in calibers used in lever actions today that have bullet designs contrary to the warnings, but have no such warning on their packaging. I know because I have looked.

The testing in the video I found that John posted certainly goes against trying to prove this is still a "real" danger. 

Like Ric and John, I have never read nor heard of a legitimate instance of this happening. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 30 September 2018

I seem to remember the REMINGTON Model 14/141 pump action rifle had a "twisted" tubular magazine. And the ammo had a dished out base "ring" between the primer & the out edge of the rim. I remember seeing some of this ammo, in a Collector's Display at a gunshow in the '1960's. The cartridges had pointed bullets. The twisted mag tube was supposed to make the bullet nose rest in the recess in the cartridge case's base. 

This rifle was chambered in .25, .30, .32 & .35 Rem. All rimless and the first 3 rds were REMINGTON'S answer to WINCHESTER'S .25WCF, .30WCF & .32WS. The .35REM, the only survivor had a new cartridge head size, I think.

I used to load SIERRA .308-150gr Spitzer FB's in my 94' Trapper for Hunting in SoCal Cleveland NAT Forest. Shot's were so close & fast that a 2nd shot was only if your 1st one anchored a little buck. Carbine carry, left side. Managed 2 bucks in 7yrs.

Any longer rifle was just about impossible to move thru the brush. One round chambered, one round in the mag.  Little tiny deer yielded about 35-40lbs of meat. So lean fit only for sausage. 

Used to be a FANTASTIC GERMAN Meat Market in GARDENA. They'd skin it out, scrap the hide for tanning and give ya sausage any way you wanted it.  Best Double Smoked HUNGARIAN Sausage in the world. Made their own everything. They used to sell upwards of a thousand geese for XMAS. CUSTOMER'S all got old, died off. Been gone 15yrs +. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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RicinYakima posted this 30 September 2018

"Carbine carry, left side. Managed 2 bucks in 7yrs"

Please define "carbine carry"?

I have used an early Remington Model 14 in .25 Remington for twenty years. Load 100 grain Nosler Partitions with maximum plus loads and never even had a dented primer on unloading. The spiral magazine holds the noses outside the primer pocket 100% of the time. I think the crimped in primers was to keep them from blowing out the autoloaders.

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BigMan54 posted this 30 September 2018

Carbine Carry as taught to me by my Uncle Alan: 

Short Rifle/Carbine carried slung muzzle down on the weak side shoulder. Weak hand wrapped around forend, but not around the sling. 

To put into action; shrug the weak shoulder while simultaneously pulling the carbine forward & up with the weak hand. The strong hand wraps around the stock wrist as the carbine is pulled up into line and cheeked/pulled back into shoulder. Finger goes onto trigger as sights line up.

He learned this in the USMC in WW II.

HE taught me at age five with a Red Ryder. A bit Harder to do with a 30rd mag in an M1 Carbine. 15rd mag slicker.

Pain in the butt with a M16.

Slicker than snot with a '94 on half cock, you can control the muzzle and keep it clear of your tootsie's. Move through brush with your strong hand leading the way. 

 

 

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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JeffinNZ posted this 30 September 2018

Interesting discussion but kind of a moot point given that your average lever gun is not a long range rig and a FN will work just dandy in the woods.  I am confident the recipient will be none the wiser; spire, spritzer, round, flat, polymer.

Cheers from New Zealand

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David Reiss posted this 30 September 2018

Jeff,

I am not so interested in using spire or spitzers, but that just most of the .22 and .25 calibers bullets have flat points much smaller than the primer. So what makes them so safe vs a spire point? Just very curious. However I agree to you pretty much about the practical use of the lever action. But if you go back and read much about lever action use before WWII, they were used for varmint hunting out to 250 yards where a different bullet may have an advantage. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 30 September 2018

Thinking about it, after reading through this thread again.

I remember an incident/accident at a Cowboy Shooting Match at an EOT about '89-'90. There was a shooter loading his UBERTI Henry replica. He was holding it straight up and dropping the rds down by "shooting" them hard with his finger.

When I bought my "Henry" a couple years earlier, the Gunsmith who had sold it to me, warned me against this type of practice. I was told; hold at 45degree angle and SLIDE the rds down gently. You can actually press your thumb against the spring tab opening to do this. He said a high primer could go off if the 2nd or 3rd round was dropped hard.

Well I was up on the line counting misses when it finally happened to him. Rifle needed a new bbl and he needed a new vest & shirt. And a whole lotta bandaids. Probably fresh suit of long johns too. Didn't know what kind of bullets he was using, but they had to have been .44's. As UBERTI didn't start shipping .45 COLT rifles in any model until later in 1991.

And he was DQ'ed from the match.  

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Wineman posted this 30 September 2018

Problem solved:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-25-caliber-257-diameter-75-grain-v-max-polymer-tip-boat-tail-projectile-100-per-box-22520-090255275049.do

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010515567/nosler-e-tip-bullets-25-caliber-257-diameter-100-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-50

And many others of different manufacturers and weights.

Dave

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John Alexander posted this 30 September 2018

How about that. The way I have usually carried my hunting rifle has a name and the approval of the US Marines. Interesting. However, my motive has been that the barrel isn't pointing up and catching brush as much, not to facilitate fast action since shooting at things while they bound away isn't in my small skill set and fast action is likely to start the bounding if they haven't yet.

John

 

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BigMan54 posted this 01 October 2018

John,

Carbine carry is fine for heavy brush when the only way to move in that brush is along the little game trails that are only about 4"-6" wide, one foot in front of the other. Shots are Real Quick & Real Short, 25-40ft.

Doesn't work too well with a WEATHERBY Bolt Gun with a 26" bbl in heavy snow in CO, NM or MT.

Plug the bbl with snow that way. 

And hunting pigs in the Mid-Coastal Region of CA, you carry your rifle at port arms. 

May be different these days, I got busted up 20yrs back, haven't hunted since.

Seems to me, from what I see on TV & read in the Hunting Mags that most folks these days just sit on their butts up in trees and wait to ambush an animal walking underneath them or sit up in a watchtower and shoot them from 500+yrds with giant scopes and long range sniper rifles.  

Not really Hunting to me. Kinda glad I don't hunt anymore.

 

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 01 October 2018

Rog & John, yada, yada, yada.Here we go with y'all hijacking my thread.Yes John may have started the thread, but it was me poking the bear. 

Wineman (Dave), no the problem is not solved. I am very aware of those bullet styles and ammunition. 

1) Really what I want to know is weather a jacketed soft lead point (spire), safe?
2) Is a jacketed hollow point safe?
3) Is a jacket sprie point really a danger?
4) What about a hard cast, say 17bhn, spire point?

 

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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joeb33050 posted this 01 October 2018

I have access to a Marlin 336 30-30, and propose testing with primed-no powder pointed jacketed bullets in the magazine and full charge loads 1 at a time. I think I need ~50 30-30 cases, and advice/comments

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GP Idaho posted this 01 October 2018

Joe: I have the 30-30 cases you need. As to advice, I'm pretty sure you know what I know about this subject.  PM me

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RicinYakima posted this 01 October 2018

Joe, Consider doing this test with a full magazine of bulleted but unpowdered empty cases. That will pre-load the magazine spring and provide the most inertia for the primered case to strike the pointed nose. I would not think that at the moment of firing, there would be enough impact to set off a primer, even a soft large pistol. But when the rifle stops recoiling and the contents of the magazine slam back against the cartridge stop, you may. Ric 

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BigMan54 posted this 01 October 2018

Ok, David, 

COOL YOUR JETS.

I've fired several of those SIERRA 150gr Spitzers in my '94 Trapper. Stuff 4 rds into the Magazine , rack the LEVER and blaze away. But there was a problem the first time I tried it. The 3rd rd jammed, recoil had driven the bullets back into the CASES, exposing the case mouth that jammed trying to go into the chamber.

So why didn't I try a bullet with a cannalure like the HORNADY. 

Because back into late 1970's, SIERRA BULLETS were in Santa Be Springs, CA. Less then 15miles from my home . You could walk in and BUY REJECTS FOR;

.50 CENTS A POUND. ONE HUNDRED 150gr BULLETS were about a pound.

I still have about 5 lbs left of various bullets. It was take what ever they had at the time.

And yes I tried a LYMAN 310 neck sizer to give a tiny bit of TAPER CRIMP. 

And that worked great. I must have fired 2-3 hundred of .30WCF rds through the Magazine of my '94 Trapper at the range. Loading 3-4 in the Mag at a time. 

It's great fun to hi-jack one of your threads, DAVID.

WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET YOUR "bearded, horned animal" 

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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John Alexander posted this 01 October 2018

Sorry David.

Joe,

Since you asked for advice/comments ----

I suspect you already intended to but be sure to fill up the cases with 30 grains of lead shot, sand, whatever so the mass of the rounds are realistic.

Also if rifle primers don't fire be sure to try pistol primers to see if there is a margin of safety.

It seems to me that first you should try FMJ military bullets.  If those don't do the trick it's a pretty good bet that the others won't

You may be the only guy to ever run a straight forward test to find out.  The test in the video was a little weird in making the gun recoil forward for most of his tests and introducing a mass that soaked up some of the energy of the fired bullet.  Also taping the tubes to the barrel allowed a bit of cushioning at a critical time.

If nobody has done it before why not?

John

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BigMan54 posted this 01 October 2018

OK,

I looked at the video again. 

I think a true test would require the mag tube to be rigidly attached to the gun.

You would have to fire the gun itself to get the correct recoil forces. 

You would have to fill the mag tube with as many rounds as it would take, to lessen the cushioning action of the mag spring itself. I don't think I fired my TRAPPER with more then 4rds in the mag. Even though it would take 5rds.

I think the HEAVIER the bullet the more inertia would be generated. That might aid in causing a primer detonation.

I also think maybe using a more sensitive target primer might aid in ignition. As well as a longer bbl/mag combination, say a 30" bbl/mag with a more powerful cartridge.

Maybe an 1895 Marlin converted to .30-06 with a pencil bbl & full length mag tube, shooting machine gun ammo.

Just my thoughts, worthless as they are considered to be.

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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mrbill2 posted this 02 October 2018

Take a look at this :

And at high speed film :

mrbill2

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David Reiss posted this 02 October 2018

Mr. Bill,

I had already watched this one. It is of course produced by the same people. I did not reference if because I felt it had little to do with my question of recoil causing one round to set off the one in front of it. Nevertheless it is fun to watch. 

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 02 October 2018

Well, I guess my idea of the rounds having to be held tightly "nose to tail" isn't worth spit.

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 02 October 2018

At this point I think that it would take a lot of recoil, more than what is normally encountered with lever action loads or very sensitive primers. With that said I am no fool and don't intend to test the theory with one of my guns or skin. I would think it beneficial for one of the gun or ammo companies to thoroughly test this. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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joeb33050 posted this 02 October 2018

I need ~ 10 .30 fmj cannelure bullets for the test

Thanks;

joe b.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 October 2018

... if you guys figure this puzzle out .... wonder if you might stop by and spend a few hours studying up  my wife ???

ken

would the maximum force seen by the cartridges be limited by the pre-load of the magazine spring ??

a little scary when you realize that firing pin tips are nicely rounded too, just like 30-30 recommended bullets ...

 

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joeb33050 posted this 03 October 2018

I've got 39 Sierra 180 gr hpbt bullets, and Rem 2 1/2 LP primers. I DON'T have 30=30 reloading dies.

I need to borrow a set of 30-30 dies, I'll send them right back.

I think that 2 ctgs in the magazine allows the mag spring to store recoil energy and have a better chance of firing a primer.

Others think a full mag increases chance.

Plan:

Load some cases, Sierra bullets, no powder, Rem 2 1/2, for the magazine.

Load some cases with 170 + gr bullets, Sierra included, at ~ factory velocity.

Dummies in mag.

Fire 1 shot, offhand.

Extract dummies, inspect, if primer fired, quit. If not, load again.

Continue until primer fires or I get sick of the recoil.

?????????????

 

 

 

 

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GP Idaho posted this 03 October 2018

Check your PMs Joe.  Also, I sent along 20 more "pointy"  bullets.  Gp

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M3 Mitch posted this 04 October 2018

Glad to see an experiment underway to find this out.  I don't have any data of course, but I doubt that a .219 Zipper or 25-35 would have enough recoil to cause a magazine explosion.

One practical answer is to just load one in the chamber, and one in the magazine - who has ever really done anything on a hunt with the 3rd shot anyway?  That and I think old school rounds like 25-35, .348, etc. with considerable body taper lie in the tube with the bullets down on the floor of the tube, against the rim of the round ahead, not on the primer. But am I sure enough of that to risk my gun and/or my left hand?  No, I ain't!

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David Reiss posted this 04 October 2018

Glad to see an experiment underway to find this out.  I don't have any data of course, but I doubt that a .219 Zipper or 25-35 would have enough recoil to cause a magazine explosion.

One practical answer is to just load one in the chamber, and one in the magazine - who has ever really done anything on a hunt with the 3rd shot anyway?  That and I think old school rounds like 25-35, .348, etc. with considerable body taper lie in the tube with the bullets down on the floor of the tube, against the rim of the round ahead, not on the primer. But am I sure enough of that to risk my gun and/or my left hand?  No, I ain't!

Mitch,

No sure about the cartridges lying against the rims because off the spring pressure. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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alamogunr posted this 08 October 2018

I hate to intrude on this interesting discussion but it reminded me of an article in either Precision Shooting or The Accurate Rifle, both now defunct.  A similar test was done only a little more scientific IIRC.  That test had a similar result.  I can't go look for the article since  sold off my collection of both publications about a year ago.

Maybe someone else remembers the article.

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RicinYakima posted this 08 October 2018

The article was by Mic McFarland (?) who set off a round, .44/40 (?) in a Marlin magazine tube with electric wire on the primer. Round blow up, opened the tube but none of the other rounds exploded. Would have been bad if your hand was around the tube at the time. FWIW

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joeb33050 posted this 10 October 2018

I've got the dies, Thanks John; bullets, Thanks Arch and Gary, and brass, Thanks Gary. I got the Marlin 336 30-30 today, and it is a bear to get a ctg in the magazine, AND, it doesn't eject. 

I've had the bolt out a dozen times, the ejector is there on the left wall of the receiver, everything else works, but no eject.

This  is a ~50 year old unfired rifle.

Does anyone know why?

 

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joeb33050 posted this 17 October 2018

I'm stuck, the borrowed Marlin 336 needs a stick and hammer taps to get cartridges into the magazine. I need to borrow an other lever gun.

joe b.

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GP Idaho posted this 17 October 2018

Well Joe,  You'd be more than welcome to use my Marlin 336 but it would be quite a road trip for two old men. Half way should be somewhere around Omaha. I wonder if they have a CBA club range near there?  Wish we were closer, it would be fun to be in on the experiment. I hope someone local to you steps up to help out.  Gp

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dbarron posted this 18 October 2018

There was an article in "Handloader" (I think) years ago, in which the author did a very thorough test of this concept and was unable to trigger a chain fire. On the other hand, I once had a client who lost his left thumb when a round(s) detonated in a lever action magazine. The available medical records supported this. The gent was gun savvy and denied that he had loaded pointed ammo. As I recall it was a Marlin 45-70, so...

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GP Idaho posted this 18 October 2018

dbarron: Other causes than a pointed bullet might cause a tube detonation. A primer that was seated improperly at home or  at the factory might be a suspect.Gp

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