Really Wild Flyers

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Wineman posted this 3 weeks ago

Very puzzled. I made up a big batch of a clone of the Lyman 311407 from the Boolits group buys from a few years back. A Loverin style with multiple grease grooves. It starts out with a major diameter of 0.316" and 0.310" top bands and a 0.304" nose. I sized them (with speed green lube in the grooves) to 0.314. They were loaded with loving care (weight sort, all the bells and whistles) in a 30-06 and shot in a M1903A3 with a known large throat. With 16.5 AL 2400, WLR and the GC at the bottom of the neck with a neck tension of 0.001". Out of 10 two or three will be on target and then the rest keep making a larger and larger pattern. At the Mil-National in 2016 I managed to make plenty of enemies due to cross fire etc. I shot some last weekend and managed a 35/300 in a CMP match. I have since pulled the rest and will switch to a 314299 and see where that goes. There is no leading that I can find in the barrel. I am just baffled. I can see a wide group but flyers off the paper with no rhyme or reason are really crazy. The fat nose and relatively deep seating may have something to do with it but i am still at a loss for the crazy shooting these do.

Dave

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Ken T posted this 3 weeks ago

Have you tried these bullets in an unsized fired case?I have the impression these were be sized only enough to be a slip fit in an unsized fired case.

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Wineman posted this 3 weeks ago

Ken,

The ID of a fired case is a tight slip fit on a ZZ 0.314- gauge and a No/Go on the 0.314+ gauge. Unsized these are 0.316". The same combo with a 314299 will stay in the black and make decent groups with only flyers (bad wind dope, old eyes?) into the "7" ring at 200 yards. I got the Loverin for use in Mosins/Enfields with big bores. I sized some and was lulled by cloverleafs at 25 yards in the M1903A3 to take it to the Mil-National in Puyallup. Still a rational explanation as to why the blunderbuss effect is so great with a bullet that is not too small and does not lead would be nice. Chalk it up to the "do more homework" camp and shoot what the other guys use and not something completely different.

Dave

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 2 weeks ago

to coin a phrase :: "" i feel your pain "" ....

back when i was serious... more nearly serious .... i liked 2.2 inch groups ... but was fascinated by 16 inch groups ....   i could get them at will from my 7mm lee mold even with 10 gr unique in my 280 varmint gun ....  it had a too-small nose.... which i assumed sagged out of concentricity upon firing .... and my rcbs silhouette mold had a larger nose and gave 2 inch groups with no work ...

so i machined some swage dies and corrected the lee bullet ... i thought ... but it still gave 16 inch groups ....  ?? ....

it is possible that there are some things about cast bullets that are to be never revealed to mankind ....

********************

oh, i should mention that i have other lee molds that shoot pretty well .

i think we need a magic perfect bullet recovery tank to see what went wrong .... surely it is from bent and distorted bullets ??    there is only bent bullets and barrel whip ... and loose scope mounts ...

ken

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

My vote for this common issue is gas cutting the thin driving bands. Only bad things happen if the devil gas gets past the base of the bullet!angry

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Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

Agree on thin driving bands getting gas-cut. 

I like full throat diameter base band with driving bands of width not less 1/4 of bore diameter. Nose north of crimp groove should nearly fill throat, ideally 0.001 under throat size but tapered to fit forcing cone angle and not simply two distinct diameters.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BigMan54 posted this 2 weeks ago

My DAD shot this bullet in his Model 70 National Match cast of his  #2+ alloy (10lbs #2 + 1lb LINO). It was a bit of a process which is why I still remember it. 

Seat the slip on gas check using a piece of cut up inner tube tacked to a wood base underneath the bullet & then tap the flat nose of the bullet with a small rubber mallet. Size/lube only the bottom 3-4 grooves. Seat in a primed, Charged half-neck sized case, the bullet base equal to the bottom of the case neck. I can't remember if it was crimped or not.  Dip the loaded round into melted lube bullet first to the mouth of the case. Let drip dry bullet down. Store in special box that held each round all the way up to the first lube groove under the bullet nose.  He used 4198, but I can't remember the charge weight or the bullet sizing dia.

Now that I typed this out I guess it isn't that much help.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun.

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

Yes it does! Larger size, seated deeper into the throat, means less gas cutting.

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Wineman posted this 2 weeks ago

Ric,

You were there and saw the frustration. My good groups were a partial box of 314299 and the loaners from Mike Kastning (who was really getting frustrated with the cross fire on his target :-)

I'll do some pondering, the sizing looks good but the nose is too big and forces a deep seating. I have a Mosin that I can see if it is happy, but the Springfield is off this diet.

Dave

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 2 weeks ago

Bigger and deeper in the throat are better. This was proven once again in my Ruger LC9s Pro with the variety of PB casting that I was given to try. 

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Wineman posted this 2 weeks ago

Just thought I would post this to see what y'all think. I'm wondering if the nose being larger than the first bands had something to do with it.

Dave

Fattest 30 Sized @ 0.314

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R. Dupraz posted this 2 weeks ago

Yes. But I am confused by what you have posted. I have never seen this bullet design with the band and nose diameters  configured this way where the nose is larger than the following driving bands. Is this the same bullet that you are using? The figures that you initially posted for the nose and top bands are different than what the illustration shows. Which are correct?  I can see several reasons why you are getting those flyers.  

I know that this is a different horse but I breach seat a HOCH PB bullet of this style in a 38-55 and it shoots wonderfully. But the diameter of the driving bands descend in increments, from about mid bullet to the nose.

You wrote that this "03A3" has a known large throat.Do you know the diameter and depth of the throat and leade? As well as the bore diameter at the breach end? If not, you need to make a cast of the throat leade and bore at the breach of this rifle to find out what you are dealing with first.  There are some easy ways of doing this.

All the loving care and bells and whistles is wasted effort if the bullet doesn't fit. I can't understand why anyone would cut a mold with those dimensions.

 

 

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joeb33050 posted this 2 weeks ago

Very puzzled. I made up a big batch of a clone of the Lyman 311407 from the Boolits group buys from a few years back. A Loverin style with multiple grease grooves. It starts out with a major diameter of 0.316" and 0.310" top bands and a 0.304" nose. I sized them (with speed green lube in the grooves) to 0.314. They were loaded with loving care (weight sort, all the bells and whistles) in a 30-06 and shot in a M1903A3 with a known large throat. With 16.5 AL 2400, WLR and the GC at the bottom of the neck with a neck tension of 0.001". Out of 10 two or three will be on target and then the rest keep making a larger and larger pattern. At the Mil-National in 2016 I managed to make plenty of enemies due to cross fire etc. I shot some last weekend and managed a 35/300 in a CMP match. I have since pulled the rest and will switch to a 314299 and see where that goes. There is no leading that I can find in the barrel. I am just baffled. I can see a wide group but flyers off the paper with no rhyme or reason are really crazy. The fat nose and relatively deep seating may have something to do with it but i am still at a loss for the crazy shooting these do.

Dave

I think your bullet is not stable. 1" long?, that's what A dwg. says. MV maybe too low. The 10" twist should stabilize a 1" long bullet, but ...

Shoot some at 50 yards?, or where some hit the paper. Tipping? Sideways? 

joe b.

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GP Idaho posted this 2 weeks ago

I don't know who cut the mould that's giving the problem but I checked the NOE site for their version, the 311-170-FN GC As you show, the front two bands are .301 and the rest are .314. The diameter of the nose is not shown.  If the nose is in fact larger than .301 the first thing I'd try is sizing the nose down to match the forward bands. There is no good reason I can see for the nose to be larger than any of the bands.  I just purchased the 8MM version of this same bullet mould and the nose diameter on mine measures the same as the first two bands. It's so new that I haven't had a chance to shoot any yet but will today or tomorrow. I'll let you all know how they fly. I'm hoping, better than Dave's. lol Gp

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R. Dupraz posted this 2 weeks ago

GP wrote:

"If the nose is in fact larger than .301 the first thing I'd try is sizing the nose down to match the forward bands."

I agree with GP. Doing this would also eliminate deep seating in the cartridge case and would allow you to deep seat in the throat for a better fit, which is good. 

I don't know the length of your bullet but one of my military match rifles is also a Springfield. And my match load is with an NOE or Lyman 314299 at about 1500 FPS. It shoots very well with the NOE version at 1.176" in length.

NOE shows the length of their version of your bullet at 1.00". and the Greenhill Formula shows a max bullet length for a .308-10" twist to be 1.42".  So, I doubt if the casting is too long for the twist.    

 

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Wineman posted this 2 weeks ago

Thanks for the replies. The Cerrosafe cast has a neck OD of 0.343". It is 0.314" at the case mouth tapering to 0.310" in 0.3" where the lands start. It is a two groove with a 0.302 x 0.310 barrel. These bullets are right at 1" long. I am guessing that the top bands should be larger. As designed the rear bands are 0.318" and I sized them to 0.314". For some reason I never really looked at the front bands and maybe it is a mold issue or a casting issue. Anyway, I know what not to use and will stick to bore rider types for future trials. Joe, the holes are normal no tipping when they hit the paper. They just dont like the paper on my target, but prefer the guy next door or the berm or the ground.

Thanks again, you are all a wealth of knowledge!

Dave

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 2 weeks ago

hi wineman ..

hey you can't leave us hanging like this .... how about taking a break and then give it another try ... more fun for the rest of us without we all having to do the dirty work !! ...

i would size the existing three front groove dia. bands down to 0.303 also,  this would let you seat out until the chambered bullet is stopped by the top groove band.    this gives more stabilizing nose engraving and might get better results.

next if this didn't give a miraculous improvement  i would chuck the mold up and  make the bottom two bands into one wider stronger band...

i believe there is more to be learned from making terrible groups into acceptable groups than from making 1 inch groups into 0.94 inch groups .  one very interesting thing you report is that your wild shots are not " tumbling " ... ? perfectly good bullets flying all over the place ? .... i love it ...  but then i married a blonde ...

ken

 

 

 

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OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

I would try a soft alloy like 20/1, crimp case using a rolled crimp on bullet, seat bullet longer in case,  then jam bullet in throat when chambered. A gas check will help prevent gas cutting. Keep velocity on the lower side...1500fps.

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John Alexander posted this 2 weeks ago

Ken,

Some friendly advice you probably don't need but if I were you I would block family access to your posts, at least to the last one.

John

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OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

2400 works good, but is a more position sensitive powder. I would try any brand 4198 or 4759.

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Wineman posted this 2 weeks ago

Well I married a Redhead and competitive she certainly is. No problem, now that the sea of grapes had stopped, my "free" time will return and I can try the nose sizing. Too much lead, so little time...

OU, I try to tip the muzzle up each time. I have read that Al 2400 is PS, not PS (Ed H), strings unless you clean, one of the greatest powders of all time, great but H110 is better in pistols, old Herc 2400 was better, and finally: it sucks send it to me and I will dispose of it. I do have IMR 4198 (for the short Russki) SR 4795 (not much and no more to find), AC 5744 (new and untried). I have also thought about 26-30 of 4895, 4064 or Varget. I do use a GC and the velocity is probably 1500 ish. The alloy is a hard one from Roto Metals and I did not crimp.

Dave

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beltfed posted this 2 weeks ago

Look at Re7 , too

beltfed/arnie

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Larry Gibson posted this 2 weeks ago

"A Loverin style with multiple grease grooves. It starts out with a major diameter of 0.316" and 0.310" top bands and a 0.304" nose. I sized them (with speed green lube in the grooves) to 0.314."

 

I have tested numerous times in various .30 caliber cartridges including the 30-06 bullets sized at .308 through .314 in .001 increments with the same other components. Accuracy always deteriorated with bore riding and Lovern style bullets .312 to .314 regardless of throat size.  Also if you didn't have any leading then there is no "gas cutting".  I suggest two things;  size the bullets .311 and change to a better lube.  I suggest Lar's White label NRA 50/50 or 2500+.

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

While not hotly disagreeing with Larry, a lot of shooters can not see leading with these bullets. Twenty five years ago trying to duplicate Al Miller's work with high velocity cast loads (Handloader Magazine), I found Loverin style bullets gas cutting but the .314" sized gas check scraping out major leading when viewed from the chamber. It was only after a friend got a bore-scope that I saw that, yes gas cutting leads the bore. BUT if the gas check scraps it down to "shiny" I didn't recognize it as leading.

I hardily recommend Lar's 2500+ as I am using it for everything (it's cheap) except match loads at 1450 f/s that I am hoarding Grey #24 to use.

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Wineman posted this 5 days ago

Sounds like a plan.

Thanks again.

Dave

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