Stirring The Pot

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Last Post 28 September 2017

Standard Member

OU812 posted this 16 August 2017

I am always trying different things. Shot these loads today to compaire softer vs. harder alloys. Bullet is 224 NOE 80 SP

Using 6 grains of Tite Group (bottom target) and 10 grains 5744 (top target). Velocity is about 1500 fps.

Notice groups got larger as bullet got harder.

Softer alloys will streak your barrel more easily than harder alloys, so a good tumble lube or smearing of soft lube on bullet BORE RIDE section helps prevent.

OH YEA and be sure to stir your alloy regularly during casting. Just some thoughts.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 August 2017

ou812 :: thank you .... sometimes i feel i am starting over ...and over .... and over .... and ....

***********

when i first started casting i had about 200 lbs of rimfire range scrap ... seemed to work just fine for my 1400 fps plinking ... maybe i shouldn't have "" upgraded "" to hardball when that was gone ....

i bet jim scearcy will be interested in this little experiment ... heh ... ( he of the 6mm 1.3 grouping fame ) ...

ken

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OU812 posted this 16 August 2017

I was told to use less tin (1 per cent), less velocity and watch accuracy improve. Much like 22 rimfire.

Rifle is 1/12 twist Remington 700 chambered in 223 Remington.

Why was the 223 Remington named 223? Isn't it a .224 caliber?

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Standard Member

onondaga posted this 16 August 2017

OU812

You verify Lee on matching alloy hardness to load pressure using your softer alloy in low pressure loads to shoot more accurately. Lee continues to be correct for at least you and I.

I have had many results verifying the same Lee Theory. Sometimes I just use what I like and see how it shoots like many cast shooters. I shoot a low pressure load in 7.62X39 with a 90 gr SWC cast in #2 Alloy and Titegroup at 1160 fps in a single shot Remington Spartan. Lee assigns a lot softer alloy than my Certified #2, but the load groups consistently under 1/2" at 50 yards. Rimfire rangescrap is a perfect match to my low pressure load but I don't use it in this application because it is squirrel hunting ammo that I keep in my pocket when hunting and the softer scrap dents and scratches too easily in the pocket. The #2 alloy shoots so well, I just won't bother to try rangescrap even though it is a perfect match. What would I gain? maybe 1/16" tighter at 50 yards, so what.

Gary

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CBA Member

Scearcy posted this 16 August 2017

"Stirring the Pot" I like the name. That 1-20 Titegroup target is nice.

Ken - still working on the 243 after Greenhill caught up to me. .88" 10 shot group about an hour ago - 12 BHN of course - 80 gr bullet.

Jim

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CBA Member

stevebarrett posted this 17 August 2017

Interesting about remembering to stir the alloy. I did that for years, and then got bored and stopped. I couldn’t see it made any difference. Is there any reason to think it would? I only use a bottom-pour pot though; maybe it’s different if you scoop from the top with a ladle.

Steve

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 17 August 2017

I was told at gun range that stirring keeps tin, antimony and lead more equally distributed in bullets? Maybe helping accuracy?

Pure lead requires no stirring and is the core of jacketed bullet.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 17 August 2017

Good rumor. I'll have to fire up the pot, still well and take two samples (top and bottom) then come back in 8 hours and take two more similar samples. THEN take them into work and have them analyzed. I should start a pool as to the results. Place your bets!

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 18 August 2017

Sorry doesn't work that way. Lead, tin and antimony make a true solution when liquid. Does the alcohol separate out of your beer??? NO! What happens is that they go from liquid to solid at different temperatures and make crystals. Gary know how to explain all this.

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CBA Member

GP Idaho posted this 18 August 2017

From my understanding I'm going with Ric if there's a betting pool. It would be very hard if not impossible to separate the elements in an alloy if you tried. Nope alcohol doesn't separate from the hops and sugar doesn't settle to the bottom of your soda. Gp

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 18 August 2017

Bill Ferguson, The Antimony Man, and I had a long talk one evening about removing unwanted metals from scrap alloys. Since he was a 1936 MIT graduate metallurgist, I believe what he told me. "Just stick a nickel and a copper rod in the pot and use electricity to plate the unwanted metals out." How does that work for the home shop, I ask. Well go buy a $1500 rectifier, and start playing with it until you find the right voltage on the electronic scale for each electron-volt requirement. That works, but I can buy a lot of certified alloy for $1500!!

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CBA Member

stevebarrett posted this 19 August 2017

I once looked into the possibilities of metals in the mix separating out. I’d weighed out as near I could 5% tin, 6% antimony, 89% lead. I didn’t stir or flux and put the approximate 200^th 9mm bullet aside. Same thing with a 5% tin, 10% antimony, 85% lead concoction. The two bullets went off to an assay lab and the first bullet came back as 4.68% tin, 6.00% antimony, 89.3% lead; the second was 4.88% tin, 9.74% antimony, 85.4% lead. I figured that meant either separation didn’t happen, or was not enough to matter. At around $75 a sample, I haven’t repeated.

Steve

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CBA Member

GP Idaho posted this 19 August 2017

Steve; If you need to run any more tests on alloy a fellow posting as BNE (may edit latter but I believe that's right) Over @ Boolits that will do a test on a small amount of alloy in exchange for 1 lb. of alloy. Pretty good deal in my opinion. Gp

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Standard Member

TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 19 August 2017

I once looked into the possibilities of metals in the mix separating out. I’d weighed out as near I could 5% tin, 6% antimony, 89% lead. I didn’t stir or flux and put the approximate 200^th 9mm bullet aside. Same thing with a 5% tin, 10% antimony, 85% lead concoction. The two bullets went off to an assay lab and the first bullet came back as 4.68% tin, 6.00% antimony, 89.3% lead; the second was 4.88% tin, 9.74% antimony, 85.4% lead. I figured that meant either separation didn’t happen, or was not enough to matter. At around $75 a sample, I haven’t repeated.

Steve

NOW, that's evidence (to something that I agree with anyway).

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CBA Member

vmwilson posted this 19 August 2017

Many years back Dennis Marshall told me once the metals mix they aren't going to separate out of solution. I couldn't argue with him knowing his background either. The only stirring I've found necessary is when I add a bit of beeswax to already cleaned ingots when refilling the pot. Not casting rifle bullets anymore but his writing's on heat treating were pretty informative too.

Mike

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CBA Member

stevebarrett posted this 23 August 2017

Thanks Gp - definitely sounds a good deal. I’ll check it out.

Steve

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 25 August 2017

Softer 20-1 alloy loads ready for testing at lower velocities and pressures. Bullets have been squeezed in bump die. Loaded 223 Remington rounds have concentricity under .001 (round)

Today I will change lube-a-matic over to Alox and see how that works. A thin liquid film on bore ride section before firing may work good.

Attention to detail matters only when powder charge and bullet fit is correct.

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 26 August 2017

Update for those who care.

These loads above did not shoot well, the lower pressures and velocities would not stabilize longer 80 grain bullet in the slower twist 1-12 twist barrel. Sometimes I could see the bullets tilting before hitting paper. More velocity using 9.5-10 grains of 4759 or 10 gr 5744 shoots the soft bullet LOTS better.

Fast powders such as Tite Group (3 - 7 grains) shoots the soft 80 gr. bullet accurately without tilt in the 1/12 twist barrel .

5.7 grains of Tite Group chronied 1475 feat per second. (shoots accurately)

10 grains of 4759 chronied 1590 fps. (shoots accurately)

12 grains of 5744 chronied 1770 fps. (10 grains shoots more accurately)

11 grains of 680 chronied 1670 fps. (10.5 shoots more accurately)

11 grains of Reloader 7 chronied 1650 fps. (10.5 shoots more accurately)

BTW the older 680 powder (older Accurate 1680 pre 1996 year) works lots better than the modern Accurate 1680 (post 1996).

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CBA Member

BigMan54 posted this 26 August 2017

I guess I missed 'OU812' comment about smearing the nose-riding section of the bullet with lube before firing, the 1st time I read this post. Now I remember my Dad dipping the bullets nose into a small container of soft lube just before carefully chambering some of his personal cast loads.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 26 August 2017

I faithfully lubed the noses of bore riding bullets for years. It seemed so logical. Then my curiosity and laziness came to life and I shot some groups with no nose lube then some with – then repeated a couple of times. It didn’t seem possible that there was no difference. That particular load would shoot forever without bore cleaning and it made no difference at all whether the bullet noses were lubed or not.

I shouldn’t have been surprised, after all we have air rifle pellets that do fine and Lee push through sizing dies that require no lube.

John