THE BS LIST

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  • Last Post 09 August 2018
joeb33050 posted this 05 August 2018

 

THE BS LIST

 

Accuracy, here, is 5-shot, 5-group, 100-yard group size averages.

 

Accuracy, here, is in these categories:

 

>2”

 

1.5”-2”

 

1”-1.5”

 

.5”-1”

 

<.5”

 

Thresholds. Here, it is understood that there is a reasonable, inexpensive, available threshold. For example, variation in shooter does not vary accuracy, in some category/ies, as long as the shooter has some reasonable degree of skill and ability-the threshold

 

The list of things that DO NOT affect accuracy in some accuracy categories

 

A relationship between accuracy, BHN and pressure

 

Orientation of bullet or case or both

 

Weight segregating bullets in categories < .5 grain

 

Shooting bullets in the order cast

 

Bullet lube choice

 

Weighing powder charges

 

Powder charge increments <.5 grains

 

Weight segregating cases

 

The Shooter

 

Bench rest equipment

 

Flash hole uniforming

 

Primer choice

 

Primer pocket uniforming

 

Primer pocket cleaning

 

Concentricity

 

 More to come

 

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RicinYakima posted this 05 August 2018

"Bench Rest shooters have proven over time that having the front rest just ahead of the action results in smaller group size, I have read this in two books by very successful BR shooters, and have tried and found this to work in my rifles"

I can really only speak to shooting military rifles off of a front rest. Every one I have tried shot best with the rest place where the off hand would be shooting, between the front sling swivel and the front of the action.

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joeb33050 posted this 05 August 2018

"Bench Rest shooters have proven over time that having the front rest just ahead of the action results in smaller group size, I have read this in two books by very successful BR shooters, and have tried and found this to work in my rifles"

I can really only speak to shooting military rifles off of a front rest. Every one I have tried shot best with the rest place where the off hand would be shooting, between the front sling swivel and the front of the action.

And yet,

 

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frnkeore posted this 05 August 2018

Where is your data on primer testing?

Frank

 

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joeb33050 posted this 05 August 2018

Where is your data on primer testing?

Frank

In my computer. You show me yours, and I'll show you mine.  

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frnkeore posted this 05 August 2018

Your the one that says that it doesn't make a difference, therefor, up to you, to prove your conclusions. You have all thoughs work sheets on your testing and data collecting, where is that one?

How many different primers did you test and with what powders?

Frank

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joeb33050 posted this 05 August 2018

Joe

We all know that each rifle is an individual unto its self. Over the years I have keep records of all my shooting CB. I do see a  relationship between BHN with accuracy, some rifles are very particular. Bullet lube choice, I have a 32/40 CPA, use SPG and Emmerts lube as comparison in testing, Emmerts consistently will shoot tighter groups at 100&200 yds with smokeless . Powder orientation in cast; this depends on the powder of course, does make a difference. sr4759 I have found in all my rifles to consistently shoot small group when powder is oriented to the back of the case. I shoot 10 shot groups for comparison, if the powder is shifter to the back of the case I get smaller groups. The last category is the shooter, we don't like to talk much about this part, but some shooters are just better than others. Attitude, shooters ability to control firearm, how the rifle is held, such as pressure one holds the rifle against the shoulder or free recoil. Position of forend on front rest. Bench Rest shooters have proven over time that having the front rest just ahead of the action results in smaller group size, I have read this in two books by very successful BR shooters, and have tried and found this to work in my rifles. So many factors that are involved in this unique shooting venue. Have a good day.

Bob

Bob; 

This isn't a debate, I'm not going to argue with anyone. But I'll tell you this. I've shot off sandbags, a "sled" ~6" back from the muzzle, or touching the forend, and off a "stock sled", screwed to the forend. I've been searching for a "better" benchrest solution for decades. I've never had or used a "benchrest" wide flat forend gun. And I've shot these all with and without a chronograph strapped on the barrel. I have yet to see any accuracy difference with any rig. Now, military guns and Ruger #1s and others are/can be sensitive to front bag location. 'But we don't use sleds that often in the CBA world. Try a sled and compare.

But, the only reference above is to "Benchrest equipment". What this means is that for some accuracy categories, benchrest equipment changes above a threshold will not substantially change accuracy. A >2" gun will not shoot much if any smaller groups going from a Hoppes rest to a $700 front rest.

joe b. 

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joeb33050 posted this 05 August 2018

Your the one that says that it doesn't make a difference, therefor, up to you, to prove your conclusions. You have all thoughs work sheets on your testing and data collecting, where is that one?

How many different primers did you test and with what powders?

Frank

Frankie, lemme explain how this works. I/we write the BS list. I/we hope that shooters who disagree will experiment/test, capture the data, and prove me/us wrong. This isn't about argument or debate or opinions or  antagonism. If you want to play,,with this explanation of what's going on, you're welcome. If you want to argue-get off my thread. Clear?

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frnkeore posted this 05 August 2018

Your the one that says that it doesn't make a difference, therefor, up to you, to prove your conclusions. You have all thoughs work sheets on your testing and data collecting, where is that one?

How many different primers did you test and with what powders?

Frank

Frankie, lemme explain how this works. I/we write the BS list. I/we hope that shooters who disagree will experiment/test, capture the data, and prove me/us wrong. This isn't about argument or debate or opinions or  antagonism. If you want to play,,with this explanation of what's going on, you're welcome. If you want to argue-get off my thread. Clear?

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Well, I can attest that you write BS and troll for arguments but, what I want, is DATA, good strong, reliable DATA.

What I'm asking for your DATA on primer testing. If you don't have it, say so, if you do show us the primer DATA. I'm sure you must have it in one of your work books, give us the link to it so, we all can confirm it.

Frank

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David Reiss posted this 06 August 2018

If this thread turns into a pissing contest I will just delete it. Accept the info or disregard it. I / we will not let this forum turn into a cast boolits clone. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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jchiggins posted this 06 August 2018

If this thread turns into a pissing contest I will just delete it. Accept the info or disregard it. I / we will not let this forum turn into a cast boolits clone. 

THANK YOU, David

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pat i. posted this 06 August 2018

Dave if you want to delete this post, this thread, or me that's your right but if you're willing to accept a little free advice if you don't want this turning into a Cast Boooolit clone then put a muzzle on a couple of the Cast Boooolit alumni. I think they'd be happier on a forum where 1/2 inch and under groups were the norm and people who didn't know any better were more willing to accept their dillusions as truth.

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R. Dupraz posted this 06 August 2018

''......…if you don't want this turning into a Cast Boooolit clone …."

It already has!

 

R.

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porthos posted this 06 August 2018

as near as i can guess; Joeb shoots really large groups, but, dosen't care

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pat i. posted this 06 August 2018

as near as i can guess; Joeb shoots really large groups, but, dosen't care

You're in for it now!!

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Brodie posted this 07 August 2018

Actually the Cast Boolit site puts up with less of this stuff than we do.  But then they don't have Joe B. to help them along and encourage rage and ranting. 

B.E.Brickey

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dbarron posted this 07 August 2018

I like Joe's lists. There are a couple of things in this one I think may matter. When match season is over, think I'll check them out and try to learn more about it. In my case at least, I'm real sure the shooter is a major issue.

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joeb33050 posted this 08 August 2018

I've revised the beginning to:

 

THE BS LIST

 

This is about cast bullets and 30 caliber rifles.

 

Accuracy, here, is 5-shot, 5-group, 100-yard group size averages.

 

Accuracy, here, is in these categories:

 

>2”

 

1.5”-2”

 

1”-1.5”

 

<1”

 

<.5” (We haven’t found a credible report of anyone reliably shooting < .5”.

 

Thresholds. Here, it is understood that there is a reasonable, inexpensive, available threshold. For example, variation in shooter does not vary accuracy, in some category/ies, as long as the shooter has some reasonable degree of skill and ability-the threshold.

 

 

 

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John Alexander posted this 08 August 2018

dbarron sez:

" I like Joe's lists. There are a couple of things in this one I think may matter. When match season is over, think I'll check them out and try to learn more about it. In my case at least, I'm real sure the shooter is a major issue."

Excellent plan.  If more shooters would try to disprove the things on Joe's list that they doubt by a well designed test of shooting  and then report back to the forum or in TFS, we would soon find out what is important to accuracy and what isn't. This confirmed BS list would be invaluable to new and old shooters alike and save hours of useless work and worry  allowing concentration on the items not on the list that do affect accuracy.

The problem is that most shooters have an OPINION about items on the list and instead of challenging Joe publically with shooting results and improve the list, they go right on BELIEVING they are right, thus no possibility of learning anything.

This approach of believing in what we have been told or what seems "superficially logical" instead of challenging these BELIEFS with testing has resulted in twenty years of no progress in our established classes of competition. 

John

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frnkeore posted this 08 August 2018

As far as the <1" class goes, if you think that people in this class, don't experiment with all the things on Joe's BS list, your wrong. Even people that copy what others use, do some sort of experimenting.

That is why I brought up the use of primers. I try several primers with everything I shoot and after 36 years of competitive shooting, I KNOW that they make a difference with many powders but, some powders are not sensitive to primes, such as 4227. Many ball powders that I have used are. That is why I asked for his data on that.

Some/many of the things on his list, I do agree with but, not primers for <1"!

It is up to Joe, to produce the data for everything on the list, if questioned about it. It's his list and if he lists it, he should have done the research to prove it, right?

He says that his new rest is better that what he used in the past so, I'm surprised that he has that on the list.

Joe is the one that AWAYS asks for data to prove anything and yet, he doesn't produce it when asked, at least by me.

My "data" for primers, is 30+ years of trying different primers with different powders.

Frank

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Tom Acheson posted this 08 August 2018

I’m in the same boat as Frank regarding primer selection. I won’t count myself as a member of the <1” crowd.  But in each of the past and present chambering’s that I’ve had on my XP-100, I tried both the FC 205M and R-P 7 1/2 small rifle primers. In each comparison, the Remington primers shot smaller groups. The differences were not huge but enough that I decided on the primer that I did. These chamberings include 30 BR, 30 PPC, 30 Silhouette and 6.5mm TKS. Powders included Vit., RE-7, SR 4756, 4198, 5744, 4166, and SR 4759 and few others I can’t immediately recall.

Jumping over to BPCR with black powder, I tried the  FC 210M, FC -150 large pistol and CCI BR-2. All testing was conducted @ 200-meters, off the bench. Groups were 10-rounds. After all the testing and several Scheutzen match entries, I’ve concluded that THIS rifle and brand/grade of black powder preferred the CCI BR-2 primers. Unfortunately they are the most expensive…..just like the Vit. powders.

So we need not assume that people are not experimenting. You get a new gun or barrel on an older gun and you immediately start making lists of bullet molds, powders and primers, etc. Initial test loads are assembled and then it’s off to the races. That initial load work is EXPERIMENTING, despite some definitions of experimenting saying you must have a phone book of data to prove your conclusions.

The single most influential item in all of this is….the ability and REPEATABILITY of the shooter. It cannot be boiled down to fooling ourselves to think this is a pure science. We aren’t machines and our hand-loading abilities combined with our range capabilities weigh heavier than some of us might be willing to admit.

Tom

 

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