I am going to branch out to casting and loading for a 7mm with a relatively short cartridge 1.7” OAL. My question is will a Lyman “M” die work for that length cartridge? They are listed on the Lyman site as working for 7x57, 7 Mag which are considerably longer. I have been a RCBS expander user till now but the dealer that I buy all my reloading/ casting stuff from is out of the RCBS 7mm expander and I thought this might be a good opportunity to try the “M” die.
Longone
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Short answer...Yes, with the normal adjustments in set up it will work fine for the 7X57 Mauser.
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When I was loading the 7mm TCU, the normal 7mm m die was too long. die bodies come in long and short. All expanders fit any body. I have a 7mm expander that I'd be happy to send, no short bodies though
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Not only are there short and long die bodies, there are also different length stems. I have several “M” dies and I often have to swap combinations of die body,stem, and of course expander, to hit the right combination.
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Can a short body be ordered separately? And if so where can I find one?
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Read my article in the July/August 2012 Fouling Shot for how to never buy another M die or worry about long bodies and short bodies again.
You can easily achieve similar but better results, make your brass last for at least 150 reloads, and save time reloading.
The M die should be obsolete like film cameras and VHS tapes and In my opinion is only surviving on momentum and habit.
I know this sounds like somebody trying to sell something (which it isn't) or a politician running for congress but read the article before you pass judgement.
John
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A little ingenuity and elbow grease with a hunk of metal, a caliper and Lee Universal Neck Expander Die that is a case mouth flaring only die and you can use an electric hand drill or drill press to turn a plug for the Lee die to custom expand and case mouth flare your brass to just the size you want. With your custom plug, you can get both steps of the job done just like the Lyman “M” die does. Make your new plug right and it will self center like the original expander only plug for the Lee die does. You can even modify one of the original plugs in the set that comes with the Lee Universal Neck Expander Die to do this. The Lee Universal Neck Expander Die is on sale for $11.99 at:
Gary
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I'm slightly puzzled by the need for an M die. I presume the goal is to flare the neck so that shaving lead off the bullet is avoided. For several years now, I have used a VLD chamfer tool to slightly bevel the inside case neck. I think it works about as well as any technique that I've tried. I hope that I haven't misunderstood your objective. Loren
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The desired ideal case neck prep goes beyond just a flare to accept a cast bullet. Case neck tension should also be considered. I use custom expanders to give between .0015” and .002” bullet pull on bottleneck cases. Factory case neck expander balls are designed for jacketed bullets. My custom 7mm expander that I use for cast bullets is about .002” larger than the factory expander. The ideal situation is to use sizer dies with the neck bushing setup. This allows for proper case neck tension for cast bullets without overworking the brass.
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You have really missed the point. The bigger function of the “M” Die or a custom neck expander die is expansion of the neck inside diameter to a size that does not swage down the diameter of cast bullets and make the bullets undersize. Yes, the case mouth flare aids in bullet seating but the neck expansion is much more important to accuracy with cast bullets. This important step is one that is frequently ignored by newcomers and ignoring this step when needed to keep bullets large enough so there is no gas jetting is the most common problem that makes cast bullets shoot all over the place and discourage beginners by making them believe accuracy with cast bullets is a myth.
Bullet fit to the throat of firearms chambers is the primary factor in accuracy with cast bullets. Ignore that and you will have poor accuracy with bullets shooting all over the place and leading up of your barrels too. Well made and good fitting cast loads shoot as well as or better than jacketed factory ammo when you get it right.
Gary
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Agree with use of the bushing style die approach to optimize neck tension, bullet pull, etc. Have had good results using a Sinclair neck turning “spud” to open the case mouth and then play with different sized bushings to bring it back down to the best neck ID/cast bullet OD that gives the best results.
Tom
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I mainly load for '06, .308 and 30-40 Krag, and since I shoot competitively, I load quite a bit. Since I discovered the Lee collet type neck sizers, I have not looked back. No more M dies. I much prefer using that Lee tool, and case necks just about last forever. I'm not real fond of a lot of the Lee tools, but I think the collet type neck sizer is about the best idea Mr. Lee ever had.
Wes
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I would love to use a bushing die to control neck tension, but because this is a bit of a wildcat it might be a problem. Although I do wonder if I could set up a Wilson die with the proper size bushing and just run the case in that to size the neck? I have a set for the 6BR that I might be able to swap out the bushing. Whadda ya think, will that work? I realize the case won't go fully into the die but will that matter?
I'll go look at the Lee.
Longone
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I already assumed all of that about neck tension etc etc etc
to me, an m die is a neck flaring tool. RCBS may make custom diameters with a flaring shape. I own three different diameters for 30 caliber from RCBS. I'm not sure what would be the preferred ID of case neck for 7mm, but I have a 7 mm neck expander from Sinclair International that measures 0.282. This particular accessories is used to expand 6 BR cases to either 7 BR or 30BR in stepwise fashion. Lots of tools to try.
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I too looked at the Lee site but their info says that their collet concept is not recommended for lever actions, which is what my current project is.
Tom
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John:
So, enlighten us on your magical formula, My July/August issue happens to be missing.
RD
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Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die for a lever action is a gamble. If your fire formed, then Collet Neck Sized brass, and your loaded ammo from it functions well through your lever action, then you are fine. However, fire formed brass body size does not always function well in a lever gun with neck sizing only. If you try it and it works, go with it.
My first recommendation with a lever gun is FL resizing with a custom size expander bell that gets your case necks .001” smaller than the correct throat fitting sized cast bullets for your rifle. An expander bell/DE-cap pin for a .303 Brit with the top shortened to the length of the original overall length of your previous one usually does it for most 30 cal lever guns. You can swap expander bell/ De-cap pins in Lee FL dies or Lee will custom turn one to your specification for a fee.
I also recommend a chamber casting to get an accurate throat measurement and then do what you have to do to get your un-lubed bullets to match throat dimension. With a fit of the bullet to the throat, the ball seat/ leade will size your bullets into the rifling perfectly as you shoot for the best accuracy of your rifle.
Gary
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Gary,
Thanks!
Appreciate the die box and lever gun suggestions.
Am working with a Marlin 336 chambered in .38-55. Have some test loads put together but it is way too cold to be tempted to get out and shoot. After those rounds are cycled through I'll closer at your suggestions.
Tom
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I use Lyman M dies and like them a lot.
The “belling” of the case mouth isn't needed for gas checked cast bullets, at least for mine. They go in fine. The M die works as an inspection tool, allowing me to feel big variation in pressure required. Little pressure and out goes the case, frequently little pressure means a split neck. The M die is set to bell the case neck so the mouth drags on the chamber. Belling the case mouth so makes it seal and keeps gas from blowing back, getting cases dirty and denting necks.
In 2003 I bought Lee collet dies for .223 and .308. After trying to make them work and reducing rod size and destroying cases, I gave up. Realizing that everyone else had great luck with Lee collet dies, I bought them again for the same cartridges. And after valiant efforts, I can't make them work again. They're on the shelf, I use Lee loaders or RCBS/Lyman dies and M dies without trouble. I don't know why, but the collet dies size necks to widely varying tension/size? It must be me.
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No Joe, it's not just you.
My Lee collet dies are also on the shelf for the same reasons. But mostly, I found that I get more case neck run out with the Lee collet die than with a good straight full length or neck sizer. When they are set up right of course. In addition, I anneal my cases periodically and the Lee collets leave fairly deep creases in the case necks.
And, I do use the Lyman M-Dies as well. In my experience, I have found that the above, amoung some other things, results in the best loaded round concentricity of anything else that I have tried.
RD
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To each his own. I didn't mean to imply that a correctly sized M die wouldn't do the job just that I think the collet dies does it better and faster if coupled with the VLD reamer. With conventional dies and the M die the cases will wear out several time faster from workhardening, but cases are relatively cheap.
I have never had excessive runout when using the collet die and runout isn't an issue with the way I and many other load with only a short length of bullet in the neck. If used right the collet die will size case necks as uniformly as conventional sizing dies.
If you are seeing deep creases in your case necks from the collet die, even with annealed cases, either you are doing something wrong or the die is defective and should be sent back.
The collet die doesn't full length resize so naturally it won't work for rifles with springy actions (some lever actions and some others)with full pressure loads which leave the ejected brass too big to fit back in. For low pressure loads that don't need FL sizing the collet die works fine for the lever actions I have tried it in.
Some collet dies may be defective and should be returned to Lee, but I have used them for several calibers and have never had any trouble.
What i like best about the collet die is that it eliminates case lubing and unlubing as well as annealing with its drawbacks and since it strains the brass only a fraction of conventional dies and the M die, the cases last many times longer. I guess I am a little lazy.
There is no doubt that match winning ammunition can be assembled either way if both ways are done correctly.
John
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Yes the Lee Collet dies will size necks widely in variation when you repeat the same error again and again. It is an error that I use deliberately for a specific reason too. Lee recommends 30 pounds hand pressure on the press lever for Lee presses that do not have any toggle over. None of the Lee presses have toggle over.
You cannot transfer that important instruction to a press that does have toggle over unless you follow Lee instructions. A toggle over press has to have the Lee Collet die turned down 2 full turns past shell holder contact for the 30 pound hand pressure on the press lever to be an accurate reference to Lee instructions and the sizing will then be consistent.
Use less than 30 pounds hand to press lever pressure on the correct die/press setup and you will get less sizing or bigger neck inside diameter. Use more than 30 pounds and you can get neck inside diameter smaller. Rotate the case and size multiple times for even smaller inside neck diameter as explained in Lee instructions. Ignoring these factors will run your neck size all over the place with Lee Collet Neck sizing dies and lead you to have the opinion the dies are junk and run all over the place.
So Joe, if your results with Lee Collet dies runs all over the place:
Your setup is wrong for your press type. You hand pressure to your press lever is inconsistent.
Joe, when I got my first Lee Collet die years ago when they first came out, the instructions were challenging to me. I used a stick taped to my press lever that went to an analog bathroom scale to really see what 30 pounds hand pressure to the press lever feels like. It surprised me and was much more than I thought, but I learned to develop consistency without the stick quickly.
Gary
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Well, I can't get into this too much, I'm all wrapped up in twist and Greenhill.
I went and found the collet dies, read the instructions, and I've been doing it right. The collet die COLLET contacts the shell holder. I set the die to a dead stop, collet pushed in as far as it will go. Now, I can back off the collet die and just push the coll;et up a bit, adjustable, so the collet doesn't bottom out. But, I never needed LESS squeez, just constant squeeze, and never got it at a dead stop. No cam over on my press. I've even thought of sanding the collet slots, never did it. Second try, no luck. This is just one of my failures. Bottom pouring, loading 2400 or RX7 are others. My dies work fine, I've shot maybe 1500 with 6 lots of < 50 cases and can't rememver a split neck-range pickup. I tried turned neck cases, worse. Back to Greenhill!
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Joe, Backing off from a hard dead stop is where you fall short of following Lee instructions. That will set up a hypersensitivity to lever pressure activation of the collet within the die. The hard dead stop and 30 pounds is consistent and necessary as a zero base reference.
Larger neck size can be achieved with less pressure and smaller neck size can be achieved with more pressure and rotated multiple sizing. Do not try to fool the Lee die with incorrect die setup as you have done backing the die off from a hard dead stop. You cannot achieve consistency without the correct die setup to reference your lever pressure....that will NOT work with the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die. What happens when you do that is the unhappiness you have gotten with consistency.
Make the effort and you will then agree what a marvel these dies are.
Clean neck insides are also important for consistency with the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Dies, I use the tough brushes in the Frankford Arsenal Neck Lube kit to clean out powder residue and tumbling polish residue. This adds to consistency.
Gary
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Joe, here is a clear example of what I can do at will with all of my Lee Collet Neck Sizing Dies in every caliber I load:
With the die set to a dead stop and 30 pounds lever pressure, cases are neck sized to the design inside diameter or “X” inches.
40 pounds lever pressure and multiple sizing will yield x-.0015” inside neck diameter.
15 pounds lever pressure will yield x+.0015” inside neck diameter that I use for my larger diameter cast bullets.
I enjoy this versatility of the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Dies very much.
Gary
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John:
To each his own. I didn't mean to imply that a correctly sized M die wouldn't do the job just that I think the collet dies does it better and faster if coupled with the VLD reamer. With conventional dies and the M die the cases will wear out several time faster from workhardening, but cases are relatively cheap.
Wearing out cases has never been a problem with either hunting ammo or target when loading with conventional dies. One of my prime prairie dog shooters was a Sako Vixen .222 varmint. The throat is pretty much shot out now so it has had a fair amount of reloads through it. All of these rounds were loaded with conventional dies. And I started shooting the military CBA matches some yrs. ago with 200 NM .308 cases. These cases have been reloaded many many times since then with conventional dies. And, I am on my third brick of primers this year alone. Most were used in the old Mauser 7.62mm match rifle. But in all fairness, for the last couple of yrs., I have been annealing the .308 cases. Never the less, I have never lost a case because it was worn out.
I have never had excessive runout when using the collet die and runout isn't an issue with the way I and many other load with only a short length of bullet in the neck. If used right the collet die will size case necks as uniformly as conventional sizing dies.
Well, first of all, what do you mean by excessive run out? Numbers? How much is excessive? I only accept things if I can prove to myself that they work for me, irregardless of what many others are doing.
My experience with the Lee collet die is that it will not continuously size necks as uniformly concentric as a full length sizer die. This is if the case has been drawn straight to begin with. With Hornady match cases, the majority will be 0 -.0015". When using the Lee collet die, the majority of cases will run .002"-.004+". And that is with the Lee set up according to the instructions. Sure, there will be some cases at 0 or a little more with the Lee but no where near the number as when FL sizing.
If you are seeing deep creases in your case necks from the collet die, even with annealed cases, either you are doing something wrong or the die is defective and should be sent back
So,what am I doing wrong? I have more that one Lee Collet die and they all do the same thing when set up according to Lee's instructions. Have you annealed cases and then resized them with the collet die.? As far as being defective, maybe. but when I have other tools available that will do a better job, I see no sense in spending more by sending them back and forth.
I must add that all cases are sized before annealing. I learned to do this the hard way some time ago. The creases that I am referring to appear several times after the first firing following annealing. Don't know that they hurt much except to leave possible stress “points” around the neck.
The collet die doesn't full length resize so naturally it won't work for rifles with springy actions (some lever actions and some others)with full pressure loads which leave the ejected brass too big to fit back in. For low pressure loads that don't need FL sizing the collet die works fine for the lever actions I have tried it in.
These rifles are bolt actions. Not levers which are a whole nother animal when it comes to reloading and sizing.
What i like best about the collet die is that it eliminates case lubing and unlubing as well as annealing with its drawbacks and since it strains the brass only a fraction of conventional dies and the M die, the cases last many times longer. I guess I am a little lazy
How much longer do they last with the collet die? I see no drawbacks by annealing, only benefits. Yes, it adds an extra step in the process but a small price to pay for the quest toward the ultimate one hole group. And I see no evidence that the M-die excessively strains brass. What it does do is expand the neck of the case slightly and uniformly as well as slightly bell the case mouth, if you want, for ease of entry of the cast bullet.
Another downside to the collet and st. neck sizer dies is that neither correct for shoulder expansion. This occurs even with low pressure cast loads each time the case is fired. If this is not set back a specific amount each time the case is sized,it will be under more and more tension every time the case is chambered and fired. And is easily not noticed with the strong camming action of a bolt rifle. Just take the firing pin and spring out of the bolt and then chamber a fired case sometime. Another accuracy detail, consistant headspace.
The whole point of my reply is to say that my goal is to place that bullet in perfect concentricity with the centerline of the bore. And, in my experience, the full length sizing die along with the Lyman M-die are much more effective than the Lee collet in trying to accomplish this. A fact that I have proven to myself.
RD
I need to add that the above results also were consistant with some LC-"69” GI issue once fired 30-06 ball brass that I worked over and reformed to .308. To my surprise.
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I too use M dies for most applications involving cast bullets. In addition to the actual profile of the flare itself, I appreciate the depth to which case necks are expanded. I have had instanced where I've swaged cast bullets down, simply by seating them. Cartridge cases tend to vary in hardness unless they have been recently annealed. We all know that sizing cases, and then expanding them work hardens the brass. Anyway, I see no real notable swaging in cases that I've used an M die on. just putting a simple flare to the case mouth doesn't really work for me.
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Additionally none of my rifles or loads will expand brass and make it difficult to extract after firing and I have zero difficulty chambering any rounds that have been collet neck sized with nearly every piece of brass at the 50+ loaded times level. I anneal every 8 cycles. I only Full Length Size factory new brass or brass from another rifle once and then fire form in my rifles. After that my routine is to Collet Neck Size forever.
Gary
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Gary:
What's fortunate about it? Those numbers and facts are true as I saw them in multiple examples. I would offer that if EVERYONE of your loaded rounds show less than 0.001” concentricity when using the Lee collet, you are the fortunate one!
RD
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We get opposite results and disagree. We also disagree on the bigger picture of which die gets the more consistent results. Lee declares that match results support their patent claims and I buy that hook line and sinker.
You can see a comparison video using much less precise measuring tools than my former Starrett bench setup and see the pretty convincing results of the Lee Collet dies compared to a Hornady bushing neck die at:
An online or library reading of US Patent # 4,723,472 for the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die is recommended and pretty convincing too.
Gary
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Gary:
You may want to be sitting down before reading any further.
I really don't care one wit nor am I the least bit interested in Lee's patent claims, video comparisons, their reported match results or anything else of the sort. Furthermore, this includes their marketing hype and anyone else's for that matter. I reported my findings as they occurred. Simple. Moreover, you are not going to convince me of anything unless I can first prove it to myself. So, you might just as well save the effort.
What do you say we just leave it at that.
RD
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Sure!
Gary
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I like the M-dies. I find them very handy for 22 bullets. When I had my progressive press the flare from the m-die acted like a shelf to hold the bullet as it went into the seating die. No pinched fingers for the kid! I can also tell right away when a case is too long. Sometimes a long one slips into the matrix and the bugle flare I get is a dead give away. I counter sunk the top of my collet die until the top of the case pokes through. When it then gets sized I have a built in flare. This coupled with no lube is a real speeder upper. I bought the 30-06 collet die when they first came out and broke the top out of the thing trying to get enough grip to hold full power jacketed bullets. I use all of the methods mentioned here so far in one caliber or another and they all have merit to me.
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What we are seeing here and in previous but different subjects exchanges....the one thing that makes CB's so darned interesting...all of us arrive arrive at different conclusions for different reasons...there is no “this is only way it works” condition...fascinating!
Tom
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Dupraz wrote: John:
So, enlighten us on your magical formula, My July/August issue happens to be missing. RD -====
RD,
Sorry to be late in responding. I wanted to email the article to you. I looked up your email address and then got distracted. I will send in a few minutes. There is nothing magical about it and it works well for me but I see that getting Lee Collet dies to work has caused others problems.
John
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John:
No matter what I'm doing now, continually looking for anything that will show improved results I'm all ears. It's never ending.
I bet you probably don't have my current e-mail. It has been changed again sometime back. I'll send you a PM.
Thanks
RD
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Where to start? I think by apologizing. My flip remarks weren't meant to claim that the M die didn't do exactly what is is designed to do, just that in my reloading I had found something that did the same thing a lot easier and quicker for me. I will try to watch my wiseass remarks in the future. After all some people are making great photographs with film camera and enjoying their favorite movies on a VHS machine as well.
Tom is exactly right, the differences of opinion and techniques are one of the things that make cast bullet shooting interesting to many of us. What Tom didn't say was that posts about these differences should be made carefully or they can be misunderstood as criticism. We not only have to respect one another but be sure our posts make that clear.
Clearly the Lee Collet did has caused a lot of hair tearing. I don't have a magic solution but I will describe how I use them in a future post and it isn't complicated but it is different from Gary's approach.
RD said: ” I only accept things if I can prove to myself that they work for me, irregardless of what many others are doing. ” I couldn't agree more if more CB shooters took this to heart instead of following old rules that have been handed down CB shooting would have advanced faster and further.
When I said that collet dies strain the brass much less than using conventional dies and the M die I didn't mean the M die was the culprit. It obviously isn't since it only expands the neck a few thousandths at most. The conventional dies I have (RCBS, Redding, Lee, Herter, and Hollywood) all squeeze the neck down a lot more than needed for the expander button to do it's work. That's why the button comes out much harder than the M die goes in. Take the expander stem out of your die, size a case and see how grossly it is reduced. Redding S dies avoid this of course.
To try to answer the question about case life -- With conventional dies I start to get neck splits in 15 to 30 reloads if I don't anneal. Sometimes much sooner with some dies. (I would be interested in other's experience.) The 240 Remington cases that I use for matches and practice have all been loaded over thirty times with the collet die without annealing and I haven't had the first neck split. Twenty of the same cases that I did all my practicing and load development with for two or three years to see how long they would last had their first neck split on the 184th reload and the second on the 218th. They were never FL sized or annealed and still fit with a gentle “feel” of the bolt.
I am not trying to get anybody to throw away their M dies but the collet die works well for me. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
John
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I first started using the Lee Collet Dies immediately when they hit the market. I made 3 calls to Lee Tech Department regarding the instructions before I began to get these dies setup and working correctly. It is evident that many believe these are easy or difficult dies to setup. Subsequently, I have made 2 calls to Lee complaining that the instructions for the Lee collet dies are inadequate for very specific reasons:
1)The instructions give no clear indication of the function of the parts. 2)The instructions give no clear indication of what following the instructions will do. 3) the instructions give no indication to avoid different setups or what will happen with different setups. 4) There are no instructions to dissemble and clean the die.
Lee has done nothing to rectify these complaints even after my offering to re-write the instructions for Lee when I figured these collet dies out with the help of their Technical Dept.. I am a retired Technical Writer by trade.
I really like the collet dies now but can certainly understand people that throw them at their walls. You might have guessed that I am a hard nosed, fact throwing big mouth when I am on the phone with a Technical Dept. representative and I am relentless until I completely get good answers that I understand.
I get the Lee Collet Dies to do everything their Patent claims they will do and have never even come close to returning one.
It has been mentioned on this and other forums about disembly and polishing of the parts of the Lee Collet Dies for one or another reason . That is a product of creative imagination that will seriously effect the result of Lee Collet Dies. There are critical measurement areas of the die parts that are easily and permanently damaged by “tampering". I'll add that if you really understood how the critical part surfaces of these dies interact, you would know better than to tamper with them.
Gary
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I have both dies mentioned above a d have found uses for both in different guns and applications. One thing I will mention I have found with the M die. Some how some way the expander plugs can come loose over time. Rather than lock tight I use clear nail polish on the threads. Not hard to break loose if need be and no more problems. Jeff
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Out of both dies mentioned in this post, The Lee collet is the one that can be installed on your press and ruined the first time you operate your press lever. If you don't know why, you shouldn't have put the die on your press because you don't understand it.
Gary
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John:
"Where to start? I think by apologizing"
Apologize? For what?
It's just that when I see someone make general statements about things that are contrary to what my experience has shown, I feel the need to speak up. And then expect to see some supporting evidence. Not because of a belief that my way is the only way but because I may learn one more little thing that will ultimately improve that group down there. And for all the new shooters that happen along looking for information. No criticism intended what so ever.
After all, I believe this whole game, after the basics is really just a long struggle of searching out all the small details that will improve what we do. And they deffinaterly get smaller as we go along.
And after nearly 30 yrs. in LE I'm pretty much “unoffendable".
RD:D:
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I agree with Gary that the instructions for the collet dies are inadequate.
The instructions that came with my oldest dies said very little. By the time they changed to going on about pushing with 25 pounds of pressure (force really) and worrying about presses that toggle over center, I had figured out a simple way to get good results and have ignored the instructions since.
I may be too simple minded but I simply start at the one turn past contact as Lee suggests and adjust the die up and down a 20th of a turn at a time trying and measuring necks until I get the OD I want. I do this while pressing the press handle to a solid stop each time, no worrying about inconsistent force on handle, the ram stops at the same position each time. That's the end of story. This may sound too simple but that's because it is simple.
I usually use a Forester Co-ax press or a Lee Classic turret both have about the same mechanical advantage just before the “stop.” I estimate the force on the handle is between 3 and 6 pounds at the solid stop. I have polished the angled contact surfaces that press the collet leaves inward and that may have lowered the force needed.
For serious reloads I usually do rotate the case a quarter to half turn and give it a second size like a true fussy cast bullet shooter should but I don't really know if this does any good. (I will test for that. Maybe I can quit doing it.)
I have a batch of brass that I have turned the necks to .012” (it works just as well with unturned Lapua brass) and usually size to an OD of between .242 and .246 for a 22 bullet depending on the sized diameter of the bullet. When loading serious ammo I often stop and measure the OD of ten cases with a good quality micrometer. I seldom find a neck that varies more then .0005” from the average.
I have quit worrying about neck tension since Jerry Bottiger reported in the July/August Fouling Shot on his excellent research which showed that it much less important than most of us had assumed. But it is nice to know that IDs are uniform anyway.
I have polished the mandrels in some of my collet dies down .001” or so when I wanted an especially tight neck for some reason, but have forgotten which ones.
Because collet dies have always worked so well for me with the simple procedure described above I like them. They will produce the same inside diameter that an M die will and do it just as uniformly. In addition you can easily vary that diameter for different bullets, sizes, etc. Something you can't do with an M die unless you have a set of them for each caliber.
Like for some other cats, Gary has apparently found another way skin this one. And folks using the M die have found yet another.
John
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John:
Do you or have you checked neck concentricity after sizing? And then that of the bullet after loading?
I am interested in the runout that you are getting.
RD
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I read someplace maybe in the Fouling Shot that the Collet die relies on the flash hole being centered and true to get concentric neck sizing.
I have been using the collet die for 22 Hornet for the past 20 some years, haven't lost a case yet.
In the Fouling Shot NO.179 page 3, Robert N. Sears has a neat modification to the Collet die.
---J
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<url=http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=82><b>R. Dupraz</b></url><b> wrote:</b>
“John: Do you or have you checked neck concentricity after sizing? And then that of the bullet after loading? I am interested in the runout that you are getting. RD ”====== RD, I did check concentricity when I first started using the collet die and whatever I found apparently satisfied me. I just made quick search for my Sinclair jig for testing concentricity. I found the box but I have apparently put the jig someplace else. I will look for it this pm, measure some necks and loaded rounds and try to answer your question. However, I don't really care too much how concentric the round is if it shoots well and they seem to without concentric testing. I apparently have a bit different approach to trying to find accuracy than most. As you probably know from my articles in the Fouling Shot. For match ammunition I don't sort my bullets by weight, precisely weigh my powder charges if they will measure fairly well, clean my primer pockets, and do some other things often done. Since I don't know where my jig for testing it is, obviously testing cases and loaded rounds for concentricity is one of those other things. I sense that admitting to doubting the virtue of the procedures listed above offends those who do them. I don't mean to to be obnoxious by being a doubting Thomas and I know that all these procedures seem logical, but only being logical isn't good enough and I have satisfied myself BY TESTING that none of these time consuming chores improve the accuracy of my loads so I have stopped doing them. I have no quarrel with those who find them useful. I have read that concentricity of cases and rounds is related to accuracy for jacketed bullets. However, I follow the practice of the late John Ardito and seat very little more than the gas check the case neck. With such a round the alignment is dependent on the bullet aligning itself in the throat and bore and concentricity of the round before chambering doesn't seem to have much effect. John
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I also believe this to be true. My most accurate cast bullet load has little more than the gascheck seated into the case neck. It would be very hard to maintain concentricity this way. But if you have the body of the bullet sized to be a snug fit in the chamber throat and a properly fitted bore rider nose, then the bullet will align itself true to the centerline of the bore when you chamber the round. I also only size half the case neck which should help some in helping the case center up in the chamber. I'm not saying this is the only answer to cast bullet accuracy.........but it works very well for me.
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John:
I sense a little defensiveness in your latest reply. I hope I'm wrong but, I do. My questions were not intended to be interpreted that way at all. Without a doubt, you have fired a lot more lead into the backstop than I. So how else can this affliction advance unless it is to question and compare techniques and results? Personally, I don't understand why some feel threatened by this. I certainly am not. And when that happens, there is no point in continuing.
Only after you revealed your seating method toward the end. could I see why you are not that concerned with concentricity. Because during my years with a 45X2.4 Shiloh Sharps, the best groups by far were with PP bore size bullets loaded as shallow in the case as I could get by with. But only through TESTING was this revealed. Basically, of course, in an attempt to get as close to breach seating as possible with a fixed round. This was with real BP and a 550 grn. soft lead bullet and on paper at 185 yds, on out to 900 on steel. I have targets yet with groups that would rival any modern smokeless sporter using 1870's technology.
So, anyway,
A Merry Christmas to you and yours
I remain
R.Dupraz
"The questioner"
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R. Dupraz, I appreciate you being a “questioner". We need more of them everywhere but especially in cast bullet shooting. In my opinion too many just take what they have been told instead of questioning and testing to see if some piece of cast bullet dogma is true or not. Sorry that my post seemed defensive to you. I worry that that I will offend and irritate because of my non conventional opinions -- just as it seemed that I stirred up some people with my statement that I though there were better ways to get the proper ID neck size than the M die. I have similar reactions from some people about my contentions that sorting bullets by weight, weighing powder, rejecting wrinkled bullets, and worrying about small base imperfections usually do not improve accuracy. I am usually the one challenging convention cast bullet wisdom and intend to keep on but I don't want to do it in a way that irritates and makes others defensive instead of encouraging them to consider the results of new ideas backed up with testing with an open mind. As far as who has deposited more lead in backstops I am sure you and your 45x2.4 are tons ahead of me since ninety percent of my shooting is with the 22. And a merry Christmas and happy new year to you and all. John
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If I purchase a collet die will it work on the shorter case that I'm using (1.700") or will it need to be modified?
Longone
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Modifying a collet die to fit a shorter case would be quite a job. Lee will make you a custom collet die set if you send them some number of fired cases and the bullet you intend to shoot. When I last checked it ran about 60.00
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My approach is similar to HS40. Bullets are in the case just so the gas check is out of sight. And the necks are sized only about 1/2 way down using a bushing style die. It took a summer (2005) of poor match results until I finally got the right combination of neck ID and OAL to get me to have a really good match season in 2006. And....this is with an after marker barrel, custom chamber and a bump die that is “married” to the taper of the bullet produced by the bump die.
Tom
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wimilkman
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pat i.
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Tom Acheson
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Aaron
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BRatigan
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MarkinEllensburg
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Ed Harris
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mashburn
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porthos
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MP1886
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