6.5X52 carcano

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  • Last Post 23 December 2013
shjoe posted this 16 December 2013

will be trying to work up some hunting loads using 143gr cast bullets, norma brass, and R-7 powder. should make a nice light big game load as deer in my area seldom are bigger than 225lbs. the 6.5X52 case has about 14.5% smaller capacity than a 6.5X55 swedish mauser. my lyman book suggests 15gr R-7 as a starting load for the military 6.5X55. because i shoot R-7 in other calibers, i am thinking that by compensating for the differences in case volume, 12gr R-7 in the 6.5X52 carcano may be a good starting load with the 143gr cast bullet, (same bullet i use in my norwegian krag). these will be shot in a M91/41 with normal rifling, no gain twist. comments?

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Ed Harris posted this 16 December 2013

I think that your logic is sound.

If Giorgio is not out boar hunting and is lurking around the forum, perhaps he can enlighten us on what his fellow countrymen use in their heirloom rifles?

If I recall, in Italy the pre-1891 militaries have a status there similar to our C&Rs, so the paperwork burden is less onerous and they are desirable as shooters. Everybody casts over there.:drillsgt:  The emoticon is not a Drill Instructor, but is Giorgio wearing his campaign hat!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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shjoe posted this 16 December 2013

thanks for responding, Ed. my second or parallel starting load may be same case and cast bullet in front of 12gr 2400. not shure if this case/load can utilize the 16gr 2400 universal load as a starting point due to case capacity. magnum primers? best, john

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onondaga posted this 17 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3264>shjoe

Your small caliber, light bullet  selection doesn't sound promising on deer up to the 225 pounds you mention, or even a 100 pound deer unless you are shooting at 10 yards. This sounds like a personal challenge to yourself to see how much being under-gunned you can manage. I don't understand your effort unless that is your only rifle. Humane harvesting ethics should also be considered at the power levels you note with even 5 more grains of R7 and a 143 gr bullet for deer.

Yeeeouch! Consider 35+ caliber with some heavy punch flat nose bullets for knocking  deer over dead.

Also note that Magnum primers can push cast bullets down the bore before they light the charge due to the lower friction of cast bullets in the bore. This can make your barrel act like a pipe bomb.

Gary

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Chickenthief posted this 17 December 2013

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3264>shjoe

Your small caliber, light bullet  selection doesn't sound promising on deer up to the 225 pounds you mention, or even a 100 pound deer unless you are shooting at 10 yards. This sounds like a personal challenge to yourself to see how much being under-gunned you can manage. I don't understand your effort unless that is your only rifle. Humane harvesting ethics should also be considered at the power levels you note with even 5 more grains of R7 and a 143 gr bullet for deer.

Yeeeouch! Consider 35+ caliber with some heavy punch flat nose bullets for knocking  deer over dead.

Also note that Magnum primers can push cast bullets down the bore before they light the charge due to the lower friction of cast bullets in the bore. This can make your barrel act like a pipe bomb.

Gary Well lets just say that literally millions of Swedish and Norwegan moose has been killed by the 6,5x55 and 160grains bullets, and it still is a hugely popular caliber. So the caliber just might do what the man needs given that the speed is high enough.

@ shjoe The 6,5's are a bitch to get to shoot both good and fast. Has to do with 160grains bullets being @1.25” long and needing a 1:7½” twist. Unless you are willing to experiment a lot you wont get accurasy above @1600-1700fps.

As a sidenote i will advise you to keep your alloy at 2% Antimony and 2% Tin as absolute max! Any harder and the bullets wont expand at the given speeds.

A 143gr bullet with lets say a BC of .35 launched at 1700fps will deliver: E0 = 918fpe V100 1510fps E100 = 724fpe

Dont know your laws but in most of Europe the law says Roebuck/deer (a 75lbs max. deer) E100 must be 800j~593fpe. Anything bigger must have a E100 of 2000j~1480fpe.

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shjoe posted this 17 December 2013

great responses, all. i have more than one option choice for deer hunting. my typical carry is either an iron sighted remington 760 pump in 30-06 caliber using 180gr cast with R-7, or the same load in a 50s vintage sporterized 1917 Eddystone with 4X lyman scope. if hunting in heavy brush and can not anticipate a shot more than 80yds away, i use a restored 12ga remington model 11 (A5 clone) with a slug barrel. as with anything within reason, proper shot placement trumps caliber. an improperly placed shot with a 35 magnum can result in a lost deer as with any other caliber, although with a better blood trail. as mentioned, my initial question was for a starting load in a light caliber (6.5). penetration shouldnt be a problem with the 6.5s. will be interesting to see if it will shoot sub 2” at 100yds. years ago i was nearby when a hunting buddy dropped 2 deer with 2 shots at a measured 258yds using a model 70 winchester in 270 caliber. admittedly, one was a “texas heart shot” as the 2nd deer turned, but shows what  a proven caliber and a marksman can accomplish. i would think any deer within 350yds would have been in jepardy with this rifle/marksman combination. the 6.5X52 isnt in the same league as a 270, but will be interesting to see if my combination will shoot to point of aim out to about 150yds. besides, it is fun. great deer photo with your 500 NEF. nice combination, onondaga. elmer keith must have been right.

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onondaga posted this 17 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3264>shjoe:

If you are going with the 6.5mm for deer, an edge I use with .30 caliber will work with your caliber. The Forster hollow pointer does NOT need the whole Forster trimmer setup at all and works well with a drill press for 1/8” or 1/16” hollow pointing bullets cast or exposed soft nose jacketed bullets. I use the 1/8 ” for .30 cal rifle.

Sources:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/371968/forster-universal-hollow-pointer-1-8>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/371968/forster-universal-hollow-pointer-1-8   $17.99 and lasts forever!

and

http://www.forsterproducts.com/catalog.asp?prodid=740294>http://www.forsterproducts.com/catalog.asp?prodid=740294

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/drilled.jpg.html>

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shjoe posted this 17 December 2013

great advice, gary. thanks. the second phase of my load work up will involve 140gr sierra soft points. should be an interesting look. if my cast loads look like a shot gun pattern at 75yds, then i will go to the jacketed bullets. if they arnt stable enough either, than i will just load up the 143gr cast as a plinking round and have a bit of fun with them. best, john

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onondaga posted this 17 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3264>shjoe

Getting hunting accuracy with cast bullets is what I do in all my calibers. Do a chamber casting and get exact chamber throat measurement. Get your un-lubed, bare cast bullets that same size as your chamber throat, Then moderate H4895 load levels with bullets cast in an alloy that matches your load level generally group 1 inch at 50 yards and the rest is up to you. I tumble lube everything 45:45:10.

Inexpensive, really good instructions and a life time supply of chamber casting alloy:

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chamber_casting_alloy.htm>http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chambercastingalloy.htm

I get my certified Lyman #2 alloy from this supplier also...beautiful alloy for my best hunting bullets in every caliber! For recreational shooting I use a soft range scrap/Linotype 6:4  blend alloy that tests the same BHN 15 for me as Lyman #2.

Gary

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shjoe posted this 18 December 2013

tumble lube seems like a good idea for production work. i havent tried that yet. i have been lubing cast bullets at the time of reloading with a home-made lube. how do you tumble lube?

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shjoe posted this 18 December 2013

good info, chickentheif. clearly i am flirting with a light loading. there in lies the challenge of working up an accurate loading. my base measurements will be from norma 156gr factory cartridges. i am not shure about how the lee “cruise missle” 160gr will act in the M41s bore. that may be another option. besides, i have a norwegian krag to load up for as well. my usual calibers are 30-06 180gr and 303 brittish in 200gr. in the foothills of north western maine, shots are seldom beyond 125yds, and only when you happen to cross a power line area where visability is beyond 80yds. most documented deer shots in my area are at about 75 paces. for general farm duties, i have a single shot H&R/NEF with a 3 barrel set: 32acp (thanks Ed!), scoped 223 (will turn a coyote in-side out) and a 357 mag smooth bore garden gun. it shoots a small load of #9 shot out to 20yds and is very effective for garden pests without destroying the vegis in the process. also have a 3 ball load using O buckshot at 15yds for slightly larger critters.

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onondaga posted this 18 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3264>shjoe:

I really like 45:45:10 tumble lube and completely subscribe that when bullet fit is correct,  Lube is of very little importance and even ear wax will be fine. Here is a post of mine describing the use of tumble lube and where to get the newly available and commercially made 45:45:10 tumble lube:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=9290&forum_id=16>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=9290&forumid=16

The comments  in the post ( two pages of them ) are educational too. 45:45:10 was previously only a home made bullet lube from mixing and cooking with Lee Liquid Alox, Johnson's Paste Wax and Mineral spirits. The commercial product is made true to formula and method and is quite inexpensive at about $15/quart the stuff lasts about forever. It is tougher, clearer, cleaner and smokes less than Lee LLA, so, it is a significant improvement that is now commercially available.

Gary

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giorgio de galleani posted this 22 December 2013

Once upon a time ,in the early eighties,at the Codogno range we used to shoot obsolete miltary  rifles at 200 meters , from  the prone , with a sling and a padded shooting jacket.

Springfields 03 , Swis K31 and 6.5 Swede Carlgustafs reigned supreme.

The crowd shot heavy HPBT bullets from Sierra , using maximum loads of Norma 203 or 204I was shooting  only cast bullets .

Following Frank Marshall load in the 30-06 ,Lyman 311284 at 1500 fps.

The Carcanoes had a special graduatory. Armando Piscetta , the gunmaker had made some special rifles for this match ,using his own new  barrels ,made on an old Pratt & Withney rifle machine , following the specs of the Norma ammo , that used the modern 6.5 bullets. (264 dia)

The original Italian bullets were around .268-269,and shooting GI cartidges in those rifles was  very dangerous .

The condition of original barrels I have examined were  bad ,extremely pitted ,by corrosive ammo.

Modern norma cartridges were very accurate in the Piscetta rifles and  often keyholing   in  the old barrels.Those match Carcanoes were the shorter 91/41 rifles a little shorter than the WWI pikes. 

I used the Lyman Loverin bullet N° 266469 cast in wheelweights and a lot od lube, sized .266.  I usually was in the 10th place.

The fellow who was the usually the winner gave me a flat top post front sight  and showed me his square rear sght , rear v sight and  sugarloaf front just cannot be seen.

Now  at the Tiro a Segno Nazionale ( our NRA)  they shoot from the bench at 100 meters or prone with sandbags and bipods at 300 meters. A kind of shooting that I do not like. 

Presently I shoot at steel plates at 60 yards from offhand standing on my hind legs .

 at the Acqi range . A place known by Ed Harris.What he calls recreational shooting.

I am using a saeco 4 cavity mould  , 140 bullets at 1300 fps, while at 200 meters I used  more speed , to stay  over the speed of sound all the way to the target.

I did get a couple of fallow deer with a Sabatti Rover 6.5 swede rifle, but with Sierra 130 grain bullets  at 3000 fps.

I think that  cast bullets under 35 cal should NOT be used for any deer or pig .hunting.

Carcanoes should used always with the  6 round clip, otherwise the extractor might break.

Always use large eye protection , in case of case failure he spits gas and particles in your shooting eye. 

The old battle iron was not so bad , compared with the other  first World war rifles it was relatively light and had low recoil and the action was strong enough for the 6.5 cartridge.

Actually the infantry fights with machine guns , stokes mortars  and hand grades, the rifles with bayonets are for show and keeping the prisoners aligned.

 

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shjoe posted this 23 December 2013

great experiences, Giorgio. from the responses i have read indicate that the 143 gr lyman cast bullet is best used for target practice, not hunting , as i intended. perhaps there exists a 160gr cast bullet or mould available?

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