Composition of Alloy to Diameter Relationship

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  • Last Post 03 January 2014
GBertolet posted this 02 January 2014

What component of bullet alloy causes the increase of bullet diameter? Is it the tin or antimony? For example, I am using WW alloy, for .458 bullets, and say I want the bullets to drop out a .001 larger, will adding a small amount of tin alone do it?

I have added linotype in the past to increase the diameter, which as most know, contains increased amounts of both tin and antimony. I have lots of WW's, but I am running low on linotype, and I don't really need the extra hardness on these bullets.

I recently came into possession of a fair amount of tin in the form of solder, and that's why I was wondering if this alone would increase the diameter. I don't really care to beagle or lap out my molds if there is an alternative.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 02 January 2014

It is the antimony that increases the diameter and decreases the weight. 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 02 January 2014

Duane has the answer, it is the crystalline structure of the antimony in excess of an equal amount of tin. You can also try casting from a hotter mould until they are lightly frosted and slow air cooling. HTH, Ric

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onondaga posted this 02 January 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1738>GBertolet :

It is not just antimony as Rick and Duane have said. The thermodynamics Rick mentions is very important too but the addition of Tin is specific to lead bullets alloys as a wetting agent to increase fill out flow quality in the mold when casting. 1.5% Tin is the minimum addition to significantly increase fill out and flow cast-ability. Higher amounts do increase this quality to a point .

I am a retired casting analyst and have answered this casting question thousands of times in my career. I worked as a casting instructor and technical consultant for a Dental alloy refining Co. many years. The answer is the same for bullet alloys as it is gold precious , semi precious and non precious dental casting alloys. The flow enhancing elements are different with Dental alloys and the thermodynamics are higher in temperature, but the principals are equal.

Yes, thermodynamics controls casting size to a significant degree, I can readily control bullet diameter about .001 to .003” with casting cadence to warm mold temperature and increase bullet diameter. Pot temperature has a lesser degree of effect in that a hotter pot temperature has minimal effect on increasing bullet size if the casting cadence is not fast enough to raise and maintain a higher mold temperature..

Getting the thermodynamics Rich mentions to get slightly overall frosty bullets is not easy and adding gentile cooling he mentions will make larger bullets than shiny looking bullets from a cooler mold and a cooler alloy pour. Thermodynamics have a higher degree of effect on bullet size than Antimony does. None the less, Antimony is a helper for increasing bullet size from a given mold.

How many times a minute are you dropping bullets from your mold???? How many cavities in your mold??? Do you have an accurate pot thermometer???? Do you check bullet quality between pours???? Do you dump sprues back in your pot during a casting session???? Do you already have 1.5% tin in your alloy???? Are you ladle pouring or bottom pouring??? How long is the stream of metal flow to your sprue gate hole for either type of pouring???? How big are your sprue puddles on the top plate of your mold when you pour????

Your answers to these questions control your bullet size.

This gold casting, lower right is 3,000 years old and from an archaeological dig in Israel. Thermodynamics for mold fill-out is nothing new and the science is well defined:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/Israel3000old_zps9eaece5b.jpg.html>

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Chickenthief posted this 02 January 2014

Lets get one thing straight: The only liquid that expands as it solidifies is water. The question is what part of a bullet alloy shrinks the least. Lead: 29µm/mxK or 0.0029% Tin: 27µm/mxK or 0.0027% Antimony: 12µm/mxK or 0.0012%

So Antimony will make an alloy shrink the least.

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Brodie posted this 03 January 2014

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B.E.Brickey

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onondaga posted this 03 January 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6550>Chickenthief

A bullet caster without the skill to control thermodynamics and relying mainly on alloy content for fill-out is usually the same guy that wants bigger bullets and nothing works to help him till he improves his skills to control thermodynamics in casting. 3,000 years ago poorly filled out castings for the Pharoah were punished by death and this led to the development of better casting thermodynamics. Alloy content did not effect capital punishment, better casting techniques did.

Your opinion of Antimony is highly over rated and Antimony is only a minor factor in controlling bullet size proportionate to skill level you have controlling thermodynamics as a bullet caster.

The .0012% you mention, for example in a 50 caliber bullet is .0003 inches or three ten thousands of an inch in bullet diameter. I can control bullet diameter 100 times more than that in a 50 caliber bullet with thermodynamics and actually measure it at .003". Neither one of us likely has a micrometer that will even measure .0003” at all but .003” easily shows up on a cheap micrometer.

Additionally Antimony is seldom used at more than 5% in bullet alloys as it greatly increases brittleness and bullet fragmentation on impact above 5%, So 95% of the benefits of low shrinkage of Antimony is lost because that other 95% of the bullet is not antimony.

Gary

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RicinYakima posted this 03 January 2014

Well, silicon, bismuth and gallium are elements the expand when making the phase change from liquid to solid. Never did a search for all compounds that would do that, but they are rather uncommon.

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frnkeore posted this 03 January 2014

"The .0012% you mention, for example in a 50 caliber bullet is .0003 inches or three ten thousands of an inch in bullet diameter. I can control bullet diameter 100 times more than that in a 50 caliber bullet with thermodynamics and actually measure it at .003"." I believe that 100 times, as used above, in this case is .030 Frank

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 January 2014

this is not to the topic of diameter, but to alloy .... i have read often that antimony needs an equal per centage of tin ...

however, commercial ” hard ball ” is 92-6-2 and i believe taracorp magnum is about the same. i use these for my more serious ( rare ) attempts, y they seem to cast just dandy.

just some trivia

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 03 January 2014

"Cast Bullets” by Harrison, pg. 87.452” bulletslead to lino, +.002"Lyman #2 to lino, .0005 I recognize that I am wrong, never did it correctly. But, I have never been able to change bullet diameter, reliably = measuring 5-10 of each, by changing the alloy composition. I know I'm wrong. 

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joeb33050 posted this 03 January 2014

RicinYakima wrote: Well, silicon, bismuth and gallium are elements the expand when making the phase change from liquid to solid. Never did a search for all compounds that would do that, but they are rather uncommon. Silicon.James M. Whistler, the painter, learned to sketch at West Point not long before the Civil War; but flunked out, failed chemistry.Years later he said:” If silicon was a gas, I'd be a general now." Pardon me, but this is the funniest thing I read in 2013. 

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99 Strajght posted this 03 January 2014

And I used to be happy when I could make up 100  cast pistol bullets just to go out and shoot. I learn something new about casting every day.

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RicinYakima posted this 03 January 2014

Joe, Read the same quote, and why I studied chemistry and not painting, all modern painting looks like the stuff you find in a baby's diaper. Interestingly I have also found out that most people do not have the physical dexterity to use a micrometer down to 0.0001” repeatably. Of course at age 66 I can only do it to 0.0005” but only due to lose of sensitivity in my fingers. Ric

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 03 January 2014

Chickenthief wrote: Lets get one thing straight: The only liquid that expands as it solidifies is water. The question is what part of a bullet alloy shrinks the least. Lead: 29µm/mxK or 0.0029% Tin: 27µm/mxK or 0.0027% Antimony: 12µm/mxK or 0.0012%

So Antimony will make an alloy shrink the least. And, obviously, linotype has the advantage of being the alloy of lead, antimony and tin that shrinks the least (or at least close to it) as well as being hard enough for printing.  There are other blends of alloys for printing that are stronger/harder for particular applications. 

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