"Fool's Lead" how to get rid of it????

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  • Last Post 14 February 2014
John Alexander posted this 28 January 2014

   The January/March issue of the Fouling Shot has been out for a week or so now so time to ask your advice.  In it I wrote about my experience with a type of “leading” unlike the usual kind that adheres to the bore, relentlessly gets worse if not removed, and destroys accuracy.  I have never seen this different type of “leading” that still allows excellent accuracy discussed in sixty years of reading everything I could get my hands on about cast bullet shooting. I called this “Fool's Lead”  because like fool's gold it looks a bit like the real thing but isn't

    However, although I have never seen it mentioned I am sure that others must have run into this strange phenomena and I would like to start a discussion about what causes it and the best ways to avoid it.     If you have run into this different kind of lead deposits on your patches please describe it and let us know its causes and cures if you have solved this puzzle.     For those of you who haven't joined the CBA yet and would like to participate in this discussion, send me a PM with your email address and I will send a copy of the newest Fouling Shot so you can take a look at the article.     John    

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onondaga posted this 29 January 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander

Lead alloys, lead oxides, copper and copper oxides will all cold weld to each other and to barrel metal with the pressure and friction of gunfire under various conditions . I believe you are describing some variation on this.

I start with a clean firearm, then use a dry clean BoreSnake pulled through once every 5 rounds as a bench routine with cast bullets. My bullets fit throats of my firearms and I never see any leading at all.

Gary

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nimrod posted this 30 January 2014

Interesting I like the name “Fools Lead” I do get a few flakes of lead on a cleaning patch with my 32-40 breech seating . There never seems to be a rime or reason just shows up once in a while not much but you can see some flakes. I never get lead stuck to the barrel so never worry about it much.

I have several times seated a bullet and then pushed it out of the barrel from the front to see how the rifling was imprinted on the bullet and notice that where the rifling cuts through the bands there is a tiny little bit of lead smear that the rifling pushes off the band and it protrudes out into the grease groove. Hope that I made this clean enough! I always figured that is where the lead flakes were coming from.

RB

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muley posted this 30 January 2014

Coul thi “fools lead” br caused by a burr on the off side of the rifling after chambering/ is the rifling perfectly smooth/90 degree after chambering? is the leading in one position in the barrel each time? Jim

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John Alexander posted this 30 January 2014

Jim, I have bore scoped the chamber, throat, and bore and have seldom seen such a smooth interior.  Now after a couple thousand rounds including a few hundred of jacketed bullets it is even smoother.

I haven't looked for the leading in the barrel at all. (Note to self:do that and see what it looks like.) It isn't in only one position on the patch.  Sometimes a foil of lead is wide enough to wrap most of the way around the bullet.

The lead appears on the first patch through the bore and that patch seems to clean all of it.  John 

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John Alexander posted this 30 January 2014

I am transplating this post from billglaze from another thread so all the discussion can be in one place.  John=============1-30-14John, I'm replying to your very interesting article in the F.S. about cleaning.  Like many of us, I find it to be something that I've done because the CW tells me so.  Also, when I shot jacketed bullets and lived in a coastal climate, it really was necessary to keep a patina of rust from forming.  But--to get to my purpose:  I'm still not sure just where you are going with this article.  I'm trying to discover just what I can bring back to the shop as useful information.  (Bear in mind:  I'm not criticizing this fine article; if I didn't feel it useful, I wouldn't have read it 5 times!) But, my experience would differ markedly from yours.  First off, the only time I've had lead fouling of the severity of which you speak, was in a couple of .41 Magnums, one a Smith and one a Ruger.  I was shooting PPB.  Gas checks fixed the problem. I also shot gas check cast loads in my M1's for offhand practice; they were remarkably accurate, for the first 10 to 30 or so rounds.  Then, the shots would start to spread, getting worse and finally not going anywhere near where I called them.  In every case, a cleaning rod with a wet patch, followed by a dry one cleared up the problem, and the hits were again very near to where I called them.  The mystery to me was that there never was any significant lead showing on any of the patches.  Ever. Fast forward to now:  Same thing off the bench with my rifles in .308, .30-'06, 6mm Remington, etc.  The  problem is made worse by using the new 5744 powder, and not nearly so severe with some 4895, or any other powders. I have had severe powder fouling with the 5744, but no with any other powder, but in my case, USUALLY a dry patch or slightly more rigorous cleaning will bring the grouping back to where it was before. (No, no world-beaters, but, still and all, around a MOA.) Problem is, I have no way of telling how many rounds will be fired before the problem rears it's ugly head; a great way of spoiling an otherwise nice target. Purpose of this entire communication?  Should I  clean, or is it a complete waste of time, or is there alternative action to be taken?

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John Alexander posted this 01 February 2014

Well Bill, I'm not sure either as to where I am going with the article by bringing up the issue in the Fouling Shot and on the forum but I would like to know if others have observed this phenomena. I had never seen it in 50 years of CB shooting.  I am not talking about regular leading that ruins accuracy nor the small amount of lead color sometimes on a patch. 

  I am getting lead slivers almost as long as the bullet and sometimes lead foils that are nearly big enough to wrap around the bullet and accuracy remain good (< 1” for five @100yds.) If others have seen something similar I would be interested in what they think is causing it and if they found a way to get rid of it.  It is hard to believe it wouldn't shoot better if I could get rid of all that loose lead.

================  As far as your problem of having to clean after 10 to 30 shots to restore accuracy and then finding no lead on the patches, I would guess that is a powder fouling problem not a leading problem (maybe caused by the new 5744 that you say is worse than 4895.) I have seen something similar and it didn't involve leading. I tried to live with the problem by cleaning after every target but that was only a partial solution because as you have experienced it sometimes wouldn't go ten shots before rearing its ugly head and ruining a group or score.  My solution was to find a powder that didn't do it.

In my opinion, the question of when to clean doesn't have a simple answer.  With the right load you can shoot a whole two day match without cleaning and win -- shooters have.  As I mentioned in the article, with one load I went the whole season without cleaning and the rifle shot as well in October as it had in May (2,000+ rounds later.) With a load like that cleaning IS a waste of time and maybe worse than a waste of time because it may take several shots to restore the favorable bore condition. With other combinations you can't clean often enough and it will drive you crazy until you find a solution. John

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CB posted this 01 February 2014

I'm sure you've slugged your barrel, but when you did this, do you remember any points in the barrel where the slug slipped much easier than others? It sounds to me like the barrel may foul slightly when cold, then it purges the fouling as it warms up. If you have access to a bore scope, you may be able to identify the area by firing a shot, scoping the barrel, firing another shot, scoping again, and so on. You mention getting a small “sheet” of lead out at times, is there rifling showing on it? If not, I suppose it's possible that your buildup, I'm hesitant to call it leading at this point, could be from the chamber area or the leade, and it only builds up to a certain point before it breaks loose and exits the barrel behind the bullet.

Then again, this could all be caffeine induced hallucinations, caused by sitting in a totally silent house in a snowstorm, trying to imagine whats going in your rifles barrel.

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onondaga posted this 01 February 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander

We are not going to get a bullet's eye view of the piece of lead origin and formation to a foil  piece long enough to wrap around a bullet. It is not like we can install a nano camera on every bullet and watch in ultra slow motion.

We can guess. Something that comes into mind is a disagreement I had with JoeB a while ago. I prefer polishing my bores for cast bullet shooting and have posted my method on this board and recommended it to many. I report that the smooth bore is easier to clean and lead sticks less to a polished bore. JoeB has his disagreement based on literature he cites that I understand him saying a bore that is too shiny attracts lead. I doubt the theory but still will admit the possibility that a certain degree of over-polishing does go beyond what is needed for my polishing method to keep bores easy to maintain.

I don't go finer in abrasive than the Chrome Polish I recommend that has about a 4-500 grit compound. A 1,000 grit would be a lot shinier than I achieve. A lot of shooting past my polishing will burnish the bore finish to a finer finish than 4-500 grit finish.

It could be conceded that a superfine 1,000 grit or a burnished, shot in,  superfine finish could allow what you are describing John. Here is a scenario I imagine that creates the thin foils of bullet alloy you describe:

The fine slick bore finish I like does have a bullet alloy repelling characteristic that lessens or stops lead from sticking. I hope you can take that as a given. Lead alone is a lubricious metal and bullet lubricants add to that characteristic. Somewhere and somehow a piece of lead gets ironed flat into a foil between the bore finish and the bullet resulting in the foil you see and note that cleans out easily. It doesn't really stick to the bore tenaciously because of the bore finish being slick and the lead itself  being lubricious. I hope you can take that as a given that pieces of lead can be ironed into foil in that way and not be cold welded into a slick bore finish. You want to know where the pieces come from before they are ironed into foil as I understand.

Bearing bands can be sheared by shooting and a piece of sheared off lead will rest in the bore that can be ironed into foil by the next shots pressing the sheared piece between the next bullets being fired  and the bore finish. This results in the sheared pieces of lead being flattened and drawn into the lead foil that you note and are curious about their origin.

This is, of course, is theoretical. I have no nano cameras that I can attach to bullets and prove this. There are no witnesses in the bore as bullets are fired.

I also believe mere happenstance will add to this phenomenon and that a bore condition other than a slick shiny bore will also allow the formation of the foil pieces of bullet alloy. Concentricity error in loaded ammo could also start the shearing of particles of bullet alloy that are subsequently ironed into foil.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 02 February 2014

anachronism & Gary, Thanks for your comments.  I like the idea of it being a caffeine induced hullucination caused from being snowbound.  I will admit to a touch of cabin fever about now.  But the strange lead appeared in the oppressive heat of a Maine summer when our temperatures sometimes spikes as high as 80F.

Yes I have slugged the barrel and a slug pushes through with uniform pressure from breach to muzzle. My notes say “most uniform bore I have slugged.”  I also have borescoped it several times.  I understand the barrel is hammer forged (Tikka) and is very smooth with of course no machining marks but not mirror smooth as a Remington HF barrel I have that looked chrome plated but wasn't. (The Remington is only a fair shooter.)

The bore riding part of the bullet shows good engraving by the lands and the first band seals or looks that way from several dummy cartridges chambered and extracted then examined under a stereo microscope.  I have used this same bullet in several other rifles and have never seen the “fool's lead".   None of the others have shot as well in spite of the fool's lead in the Tikka. No I don't think the fool's lead helps helps.

I appreciate the different possible theories that you two propose and I have a couple of my own but Gary is right there is no little camera on the bullet. I have some experiment planned to see if I can pin down how to avoid it.

So far no one has come forward and said they have experienced this type of event.  I am still hoping that someone has figured out what causes it and how to eliminate it.  John

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onondaga posted this 05 February 2014

John,

 ” I am still hoping that someone has figured out what causes it and how to eliminate it. “

The cause and the cure are very likely related.  I believe that the cause isn't anything new and will be cured by old answers also. A particular chamber throat end or angle to the ball seat isn't compatible with every bullet alloy physical properties and every ballistic pressure and every velocity and lastly every lube.

Increasing malleability and decreasing brittleness of your bullet alloy may well end the problem even if your bullet fit is right on a match for the chamber throat. That punch of the bullet starting it's way is a hard punch. Malleability increase should make the difference. Up the Tin content and reduce or eliminate the Antimony content is my suggestion to eliminate the problem. Brittleness limits adaptability by malleability.

Recheck bullet size when changing the alloy. The new bullets are not going to be the same size. Different alloys respond to casting and to sizing differently. I do think a more malleable and less brittle alloy that really fits will make the difference.

Gary

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billglaze posted this 14 February 2014

John, I finally found your posting about my inquiry re: your essay in the F.S. which I thoroughly enjoyed. But, I still remain confused about the main thrust of the piece. Your experience seems to run counter to mine. In years past I have sometimes (make that usually) been able to correct progressively spreading groups and, sometimes, unexplained flyers with a cleaning--frequently a rather superficially done job. And, in recent years, particularly with a specific powder, the problem hasn't been lead, but powder fouling. Anyway, like you, I don't consider cleaning a rifle to be one of the joyous experiences in life. Anyway, it's an interesting subject. BILL

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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billglaze posted this 14 February 2014

John, I've been having some computer problems and missed one of your postings until now.  I guess the only way to handle the cleaning problem is situational; if it works, then go with it.  If not, find out what works.  Lately I've been doing lots of work on primer pockers, seating xdpths, etc. It just goes on and on. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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John Alexander posted this 14 February 2014

billglaze wrote:  But, I still remain confused about the main thrust of the piece. Your experience seems to run counter to mine. In years past I have sometimes (make that usually) been able to correct progressively spreading groups and, sometimes, unexplained flyers with a cleaning--frequently a rather superficially done job. And, in recent years, particularly with a specific powder, the problem hasn't been lead, but powder fouling. Anyway, like you, I don't consider cleaning a rifle to be one of the joyous experiences in life. Anyway, it's an interesting subject. BILL Bill, Yes like you, my experience reported in the Fouling Shot article runs counter to my past experience as well. However, you have to be careful about jumping to conclusions.  Say the flier wasn't because of bore condition-- maybe a bubble in a bullet or a jerk. Then the following shot would probably go back into the group whether you ran a patch through or not.

  Running a patch through and seeing better results makes one think that the patch has cured the problem when it may not have had anything to do with the “flyer” or with the following shots going into the group.

I too have had gross powder fouling in the recent past -- hard black stuff that is hard to remove.  As with you, changing powders cured the problem.

I agree that the way to handle the cleaning problem is situational.  However, because of the type of thing explained above I suspect that there is a lot more cleaning going on than is really needed.

John

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billglaze posted this 14 February 2014

John, I have really had my eyes opened about this fouling/cleaning/not cleaning subject. Thoroughly interesting, with the folks chiming in and coming up with different ideas. So, what I believe I'll do, assuming that this snow melts sometime before 2016, is to look at these occasional flyers in a different light. Inasmuch as there aren't any trophies being awarded for my experimental efforts, I'm going to re-visit my old situation with the M1, but this time I'll use my bolt guns, and see if a flyer will be followed by a shot in the group. If it is, and the situation continues, then there's a world to be learned about statistics (and ballistics!) and I'm ready to learn it. I've learned just about all I can on the primer pocket/primer situation, (actually, it's pretty surprising just what a simple thing can do to become so complex) and I'm going to be able to work on this cleaning problem. And, I just had a very surprising situation come up when heat-treating bullets that has me scratching my head. I guess this shut-in weather has made me a victim of over-think!

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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