Shotguns

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Reg posted this 26 February 2014

Have had a very nice very old damaskas double that is in excellent condition for many years but hesitated to shoot it simply because of the barrels.  No doubt they would accept any load out there but I like a good safety margin for such things.  A good friend was using light loads in a old double he had, 40 gn. Pyrodex ( by volume ) and 7/8 oz. shot with cardboard wads.  I tried a few and while my gun seemed to handle them well, I took his lead and wanted to see how low one could go and still have a usable load.   I stayed with Pyrodex RS 2F and tried two different loads, 30 gn. and 35 gn., both by volume, not by weight.  I used one of those brass powder measures that are usually used with black powder rifles.  Using Winchester AA cases, they were inspected and trimmed to two and a half inches.  A sharp pocket knife was used to put a very fine chamfer on the inside of the cut off case.  I have plenty of various cardboard wads but wanted to try something a bit different and dug out a old box of Herters Chalice wads.  With a bit of measuring it was determined that they needed to be trimmed 3/16” off the petal end, this was done by eyeball with a small but sharp set of scissors.   You may have to adjust this figure depending on case, shot charge, etc.   Winchester 210 primers were used.  Even though wad pressure is not normally used with this type of wad, I used 60#, loading was done on a old MEC 310 shotshell press and crimping was done using a Lyman roll crimper in a drill press.  A 7/8 oz shot load is very light for a 12 ga. but decided to stay with it as it will also keep pressure's down and it might be such I will try a 3/4 oz. shot load.  I want performance on rabbits and doves only and if you can hit them you can generally kill them. Didn't take too long to put together five rounds of each charge and even though it was snowing outside, out we went to see what would happen.

Noticed that the 30 grain load seemed very and I do mean very light.  No recoil to speak of but it did seem to throw a good pattern at about 30 yards, one that would drop a bunny for sure.  Trying the 35 grain load proved to be much more satisfactory.  A nice good bump in recoil but not excessive at all, patterns still looked very good but the big thing was it felt very safe to shoot in the old double.  I know flying by the seat of one's pants on what seems safe and what isn't is not the best way to go but I was comparing with some other custom black powder loads I had and the 40 gn. loads from the friend.  Remember, I wanted lighter, not equal or heavier.

Loading up more of both loads I went out back to my custom laboratory ( the burn pile out behind the place ) and proceeded to run penetration tests on various cans at various ranges.  The 30 gn. load , there again, just didn't seem to deliver.  They would throw a good pattern all around the cans but most pellets ( ( #9 shot) failed to penetrate at 20 to 35 yards.  The pattern was a good solid killing pattern with no holes but just didn't have what I would consider good penetration.  Many pellets bounced off the bigger cans. The 35 grain load was the ticket.  At 20 yards what it did to a can was very satisfying, no doubt it would take a rabbit and this performance seemed to carry out to 35 and 40 yards as well.  The pattern opened up , of course, at the longer ranges but stayed very uniform with no holes that a bunny or dove sized bird could get through.

I do not think the 35 gn. load would have the necessary power for pheasants however.  Our birds tend to be armor plated.  I normally carry a 20 ga. with 3 inch mags and number 4's and a number of times I have blown feathers off with both barrels and the darned thing still flew into the next county.

The disclaimer. Most written instructions dealing with loading black powder shotgun shells talk only of using cardboard wads.  Seldom do you hear of someone trimming a standard or in this case, a non standard plastic wad in order to make it work.  I have used this technique in the past loading other shells and to date have never had a problem.  The choice is yours.  I tend to keep all my reloads, shotshell or whatever, more to the lower end of pressures and make up for this lack of power with good hunting.  Get close and shoot em in the eye !!  I feel these loads will prove to be safe in many shotguns but if you want to try it in one of the old twist wire doubles, have the gun looked over by someone who has an idea of whats going on and it wouldn't hurt to fire the first rounds with the padded gun sitting in a old tire and using a cord to fire it.  These old guns are a lot of fun to shoot but it's tough to keep a smile on your face with missing fingers.  Sneak up on all loads and be careful out there.

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onondaga posted this 26 February 2014

Thanks for posting Reg.

I have some experience with BP shot loads in 12 ga and actually have had success bunny hunting with the loads after a particular change.

My load is 3/4 ounce shot in an AA substitute 3/4 oz shot cup wad and the same volume of Pyrodex R or BP 2F, AA hulls and a star crimp. My big change from your load is the shot size. Your small shot has very little punch compared to #2 or #4 shot that I use. The larger shot groups tighter and hits a lot harder with the low pressure of BP or Pyrodex for propellant. I use the Lee Load All press and hand volume measure off the press for powder/shot.

The #2 shot performs well on bunnies to 40 yards from a Modified choke 12 ga. My only dissapointment with the BP and Pyrodex loads is the frequency that the hulls get burned and partially melted making them not re-loadable again.

Gary

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303PV posted this 26 February 2014

I will never use pyrodex. Nothing is as good as the smell and smoke of the real stuff.This website might be of of interest. http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html>http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html I use 75 grains Swiss #4, 1 Oz of shot ,fiber wads,and a nice roll crimp. 

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onondaga posted this 26 February 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1432>303PV

Consider yourself healthier than me. I am very sensitive to Sulfur, any of it's compounds and smokes. I have Asthma and COPD. I used to really like BP too. Now I have to exit the range or use my medicated rescue inhaler if anyone near me uses BP.

 My favorite BP substitute is Alliant BMZ, it has no Sulfur and tested by popular magazines and me, BMZ has the lowest velocity Extreme Spread of any muzzle loading propellant ever tested. BMZ even lights fine for Flintlocks when a regular 4F BP priming pan charge is used. It shows on paper too. I took 2nd place in 2 of the Muzzle loading Postal Matches of this forum last season. My chrono tests had a velocity spread of 2-4 fps maximum with my 50.2 grain load of BMZ and a patched 50 cal Lead Round-ball. I will dump on and walk past tradition with results like that every time. The smoke from BMZ looks the same as BP smoke, but BMZ accuracy proved far superior for me.

Gary

Alliant BMZ / Pyrodex P http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/alliantBMZ_zps5f2ff66c.jpg.html>

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Reg posted this 26 February 2014

onondaga wrote: Thanks for posting Reg.

I have some experience with BP shot loads in 12 ga and actually have had success bunny hunting with the loads after a particular change.

My load is 3/4 ounce shot in an AA substitute 3/4 oz shot cup wad and the same volume of Pyrodex R or BP 2F, AA hulls and a star crimp. My big change from your load is the shot size. Your small shot has very little punch compared to #2 or #4 shot that I use. The larger shot groups tighter and hits a lot harder with the low pressure of BP or Pyrodex for propellant. I use the Lee Load All press and hand volume measure off the press for powder/shot.

The #2 shot performs well on bunnies to 40 yards from a Modified choke 12 ga. My only dissapointment with the BP and Pyrodex loads is the frequency that the hulls get burned and partially melted making them not re-loadable again.

Gary

Thanks for the reply, glad to know I am not alone in this craziness. You speak of the heavier shot preforming better.  I wondered about that exact thing while cleaning up the bench this morning.  Found I did have some #4 shot and loaded up a box with the 35 grain load.  Am thinking now I should also do a box in the 30 grain load and go back and rerun the scientific penetration tests. I might have some #2's as well but am not sure where they are.  If I can find them will also run a couple box's of them as well. It must be a difference in heat somehow, not necessarily the high of the heat but perhaps the duration as ,Yes, it melts and distorts the heck out of all plastic cases.  Since writing the above I have tried a couple of other Winchester cases and several Remington as well all with the same results.  It looks like with some effort, you can get 2 reloads and that is about it.  It really gets tough to insert the wad and get a decent crimp after that. One interesting thing I found.  We still have snow on the ground and those Herter wads are a jet black color and stick out like a sore thumb.  Seems like I remember years ago it was common for some of the bigger trap clubs to recover used wads, wash them and resale them.  Just for the heck of it, I did pick up a few of the used wads ( they really were not in all that bad of condition ) and reload a few shells to see what would happen.  They worked fine !!

303PV Good web site.  Thank you.

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muley posted this 01 March 2014

Gary, were your shots used in a damascus barreled shotgun?

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onondaga posted this 01 March 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1336>muley:

Yes, a Westley Richards under-lever SXS Damascus 12 ga. with external hammers and silver plated lock-plates. It was an old engraved beauty. I also shot the same 3/4 ounce load with paper hull shells and conventional wads that worked great too. I also used it with size 7.5 shot and pointing dogs for Woodcock in southern Maine in the late 60s......miss it and my 2 English Setters, Flirt and Maggie,  that pointed and retrieved like they were hunting with Curt Gowdy on ABC Wild World of Sports!!!! Best day was 25 shots, 6 woodcock in less than 30 minutes in a spot my College Ornithology Professor sent me to hunt Woodcock. He said, “Take a full box of ammo or you will be sorry you didn't !!!"

Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 01 March 2014

They make brass cases that use large pistol primers. I needed to use 11 gauge card wads as the thinner walls of the cases wouldn't grip 12 gauge wads.

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303PV posted this 01 March 2014

Magtech makes them. I have some in 24 gauge. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1657554245/magtech-shotshell-hulls-12-gauge-2-1-2-brass

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Reg posted this 02 March 2014

Have tried some of these Magtec cases in .410. Excellent cases, look like they will last.

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bandmiller2 posted this 07 June 2014

Reg, I'am an old shotshell reloader that bridged the time between card & filler wads and plastic. It was standard procedure to reduce card and filler loads 10% when you went to plastic wads. Frank C.

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