load and accuracy data for marlin 94 in .357

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Last Post 17 October 2009

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mike morrison posted this 16 May 2007

a year ago i got to shoot sillouet (sp) levergun match for the first time. kinda liked it. bought a 180 gr mould on a group buy and have been loading and shooting the gun for some time. after many loads the best ten shot group i can get is 1.750” at 50 yds. is this acceptable? i felt like i should get one ragged hole at 50 yds. the gun was shot from a bench it has a tang sight added and the trigger pull is 3-4 lbs. i have tried many powders and loads from 1000fps to 1550fps. my thought was (is) heavy boolet at any speed should take a ram at 100yds. so i have been looking for the most accurate load and judging by group size. by the way the gun is a marlin cowboy with a 24 in bbl. in .357.

i would appreciate any pet load data.

thanks mike;}

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Ed Harris posted this 17 May 2007

What you are getting is normal for 10-shot groups at 50 yards.

I've had best results with subsonic loads which are less disturbed by transonic buffeting downrange. I've been using the 190-gr. NEI #161A flatnose with 4.2 grs. of Bullseye for about 1030 f.p.s. This load equals the grouping of my best jacketed bullet loads and says under 1-1/2” at 50 yards and in proportion to the range out to 200. I haven't found any heavier cast loads which would do this, but it's fairly easy to find heavier loads which will shoot around 4” for 10 shots AT 100 YARDS. For hunting in the rifle I stuff the .357 case with all the 4198 it will hold, about 17 grs., which gives about 1450 f.p.s. with the 190-gr. plainbased FN bullet and it doesn't lead.

The Marlin lever guns tend to string vertically as the magazine tube empties, so manner of support on the bags and a consistent condition is important. For group shooting I load one round up the spout and one in the mag tube, then each time I shoot and work the lever I shove one more round through the loading gate. This gives rounder groups than stuffing the tube full and shooting the gun dry.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mike morrison posted this 17 May 2007

thanks for the info ed, i have not shot bullseye in years. i quit it because it was so dirty. i changed to clays. would you use the same load only with clays? the burn rates are close. the most accurate load i have found is 13.2 gr. imr-4198 i have been using a soft check with this load. i don't know if it helps or not. as i have not tried it without the soft check. my gun seems to give some leading with most any load. i have tried boolets sized .357, .358, .359 and .360 any of the sizes seem to make no difference. i am glad to hear that the group is normal. i have shot loading five at a time and single shot and loading ten. resting the wood on the rest. i have not experienced stringing with this rifle. the 13.2 gr 4198 chronyed at 1050fps ten feet from the muzzle.

thanks again

mike

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Ed Harris posted this 18 May 2007

Current Alliant Bullseye is cleaner than the older Hercules stuff, but it seems to require a higher pressure for clean burn. Below about 14,000 psi, such as in Cowboy loads for the .45 Colt it is smoky, but in .38 Special +P it burns whistle clean.

Clays should work fine, but I'm not sure about the correct charge. If you have a chronograph I would adjust the powder charge to ensure that no rounds in the X-bar plus 3 sigma range go above supersonic. With uniform loads which give velocity standard deviations for a 10-shot sample which don't exceed 1 percent of the mean, you would want your velocity benchmark for any sample to fall within the range of 1050 +/- 30 fps. This is the benchmark that I load to and it works very well. This can be accomplished with a charge of 4.2 grs. of Bullseye or Titegroup and the pressure is in the 20,000 psi range, like a .38 +P, very clean burning. Alloy for this chamber pressure needs to be at least 12 BHN, wheelweights or harder. I got excellent results with the 92-6-1 alloy using the 190-gr. FN bullets from Hunter's Supply, which are the same design as the NEI #161A.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mike morrison posted this 18 May 2007

thanks,

i will give it a try.

mike

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mike morrison posted this 18 May 2007

i did give it a try, here are the results.

loaded 20 rds. with 4.3 gr clays velocity ranged from 947 to 1014

group one. 5 in the 10-9 ring, 3 shots 4” higher 1 - 7 in low left. 1- off the paper.

group 2. all on the paper but about a 8” group.

laded 20 more with 4.5 gr. clays. used soft check. velocity ranged form 1046 to 1074

both groups were all over the paper also.

i did notice that the flyers were showing yaw as they entered the paper or were tiping slightly. i know this means lack of stability. how to correct this.?

correction to previous statement. the 13.2gr 4198 load was closer to 1100fps than 1050.

if these velocities are almost the same why does one pattern like a shotgun and the other not. looks like i am moving back to 4198 or a different gun. by the way all these bullets were weighed and are within 1gr.

this hobby never gets dull but sometimes real frustrating.

mike

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Ed Harris posted this 22 May 2007

Sounds like the twist in your barrel either is too slow to stabilize a subsonic load or the alloy is too soft.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mike morrison posted this 22 May 2007

factory marlin bb.. boolets are water dropped and are 22bhn. i finally got a one hole group for seven shots and three in one hole one half inch from the other seven. light was good and i believe i could see my sights better. have no idea why the clays load was all ove the place. thanks for your input. it is appreciated. unique made a scattergun out of it too. may just have a cranky gun.

now one question. i just read your article in the fowling shot that arrived yesterday. could you share some info on the throating reamer you designed? it might be better for me to purchase a reamer than mail a gun off. i have more than one .357 i could use it on and a .357 max. i most always shoot cast boolets in all of them. i am sure others would be interested too.

thanks again

mike

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Ed Harris posted this 22 May 2007

The throater is simply a 1 degree 30 minute basic (per side) forcing cone departing directly from the case mouth with no cylindircal ball seat.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mike morrison posted this 22 May 2007

thanks.

mike

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w30wcf posted this 11 June 2007

Mike,

For NRA Cowboy Silhouette Pistol Cartridge Competition, the 2005 PA State Champion used a .357 Marlin loaded with 125 gr. jacketed bullets over 6 grs. of Tite Group (1,450 f.p.s.). I have tried that load and found that it is very positive on the Pistol Cartridge Rams.

So...........a 158 gr. cast bullet moving at 1,100 - 1,200 f.p.s. would be all the ram medicine you would need and may be more accurate than your 180 gr bullet at the lower velocity.

I also have a .357 24” Marlin Cowboy rifle with a 24” bbl. and a tang sight. I have found that the Lyman 158 gr. bullet Cowboy bullet (358665) to be an accurate bullet in this gun. For a moderate load 5 grs. of Red Dot has worked well. I have some Trail Boss loaded but haven't had a chance to test it yet.

Other, somewhat more powerful loads I have tested, are a capacity load of 4759 (12 grs.) and a capacity load of REL 7 (16.5 grs.) giving good accuracy with velocities of 1,492 f.p.s. and 1,372 f.p.s. respectively.

Have fun,

w30wcf

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mike morrison posted this 20 June 2007

update,

just returned from the whittington center. while there i tried the 4198 load on the pistol silloute (?sp) range and the 200 meter rams were no problem. also tried it on the pistol cal range with rams at 100 m. no problem here either. when i did my part the rams fell. there was not a local match while there but was told that one was skeduled this coming weekend. sorry i can't be there. maybe another time.

thanks to all for the info.

mike

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kidwalli posted this 25 July 2007

My little Marlin 94 in 357 magnum is my absolute favorite gun. It shoots cast bullets quite well at low velocities in spite of the micro groove rifling. It shoots jacketed bullets fantastically well if driven at max. I have shot hundreds of grounhogs with it out to 150 yards.

My pet load used to be the one I got from the old Parker Ackley book of 20 grains of 2400 with a 158 grain XTP bullet. The problem with that load is that after about 10 shots the various screws on the rifle would work loose. So I have since backed off to 18 grains of 2400 with no loss of accuracy and everything stays tight now.

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Ed Harris posted this 26 July 2007

Me thinks that 18 of #2400 is still too hot.

Current powder is alot faster than Ackley and Keith used, anything over about 15 grs. with a jacketed 158 and you are on your own nickel. Speer #13 tops off at 14.8 if I remember correctly.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Idaho Bart posted this 21 August 2007

Would fire lapping do the same thing? Maybe 20 round or so well covered with abrasive. If not is that troating reamer commercially available?

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Ed Harris posted this 22 August 2007

With fire lapping you have no control over what the resulting dimensions will be. The reamer is commercially available from JGS referencing the print. Clymer has something similar, or in a pinch you could use an ordinary 2 degree x .358” rifle throater which would be less expensive. Check Brownells for the rifle throater.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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hal3855 posted this 06 September 2007

The 200 M Rams at Raton are set at topple point . They can only be set that way. This was done per Pistol rules. Any hot 357 will knock them down. The 3 Lever Action Ranges in Pa that i have shot at, set them full foot to the rear of the stand. I have loaded way over listed charges of H-110 behind 180's and lose about 30-40% of hit 200M Rams. It doesn't matter what part of the body they are hit on. Hal

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FAsmus posted this 15 December 2007

Mike;

I have another M94 Microgroove Marlin in 357; it is probably just a few production numbers from yours.

I shoot this carbine with NEI 150-357-PB over 6 to 6.5 grains 700X. Chrongraphed velocities are 1400 ft/sec or better. Accuracy is on a par with your findings of 5x1.500 at 50 yards.

The trick I have found to help out both with accuracy and with stream-lining loading procedures is to eliminate bullet sizing. I shoot as-cast which means I shoot the bullets at 0.362 diameter.

I use this technique because I have found that Microgroove barrels like their bullets oversize and, not only that, when seating these oversize bullet my particular carbine's chamber accepts the cartridges thus loaded without requiring the cases to be sized at all either; all I have to do is bell the case at the same time as I de-prime, prime and load the unsized bullets into unsized cases.

The savings in time and effort is considrable and accuracy continues beautiful!

I have well over 2000 rounds through this carbine of mine so far - it is a delight to own and shoot.

Good day,

Forrest

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mike morrison posted this 16 December 2007

FAsmus,

thanks for the info. i will give it a try. only difference is my gun is a cowboy model. with ballard rifling. i will give the 700x load a try and maybe not sizing the case also will try the unsized boolet. at this time i havefound the 38 case with the 180gr boolet sized .359 and 13.2 gr imr4198 with soft check to give me the best accuracy.

thanks again

mike