Unburned Powder

  • 6.8K Views
  • Last Post 30 March 2014
olesmokey posted this 24 March 2014

I shoot .38 Specials from N frame magnum revolvers and 357 blackhawk. I use to use  Unique mostly but cant get it. I have worked up a load of the only powder available IMR 4227 11 grains under a 180 grain Missouri RNFP for about 850 FPS. But despite the use of magnum Federal primers leaves some unburned powder in the cases,  chambers and barrel occaisionally causing problems like difficulty pushing new cartridges into empty chambers or closing cylinder. Increasing load another half grain didnt correct problem and is above recommended IMR data of max load for a jacketed bullet of this weight. Average velocity actually dropped slightly. I  also use a good heavy crimp. Dont say get a better powder, cause it aint available. Got any suggestions? I will never shoot these loads in a .38 revolver.. only in Magnum guns.

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
onondaga posted this 24 March 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7625>olesmokey

I know I'd use  a filler in that application. It may not be worth the extra steps for you but it will solve the ignition problem. The most consistent and easy to use filler I use is BPI Original Filler. It is a high heat plastic particulate that is very light and compressible. I use it in .500 S&W loads where I have a large airspace. After charging, I add an amount of filler that brings the charge plus filler to a 110% capacity load. So, the charge /filler is compressed 10% when seating the bullet.

This presses the powder against the primer flash hole and keeps the powder positioned firmly for even ignition.

There are lots of imaginative materials for fillers. Nearly all are substantially heavier than BPI and then they add significant ballistic pressure to the load .  For example, Creme of wheat is more than twice as heavy as BPI for the same volume. The BPI also easily meters well from my Lyman #55 measure with the clapper.

My source for BPI: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb?cmvc=ProductFinding

You can also get it direct from the maker: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI-Original-Design-Buffer-500cc/productinfo/BUFFER/

My second choice would be Polyfil Batting, but use is more involved than simple metering. I cut it to strips 1” wide and then 10% longer than the airspace in the brass. Gently roll and place over powder before seating bullet. Example: http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/filler.jpg.html>

Attached Files

Duane Mellenbruch posted this 24 March 2014

Instead of a filler, perhaps you should consider just using the 357 Mag cases and follow the loading data for the cast 180 grain bullets as shown in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition.  You may find better burning at their suggested starting load for IMR-4227 which is above the 11 grains you are already loading.  Duane

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 24 March 2014

olesmoky:   I think Duane's suggestion is a good one. I have used IMR 4227 in .357 cases with a cast 160 grn Keith style SWC for 50 yrs with complete satisfaction. Except for a very few unburned grains of powder left in the bore, never any problems and very accurate in my S&W 19's and 27's.    Personally, the only filler I'll ever use in either rifle or especially pistol cartridges, is “air."

Attached Files

olesmokey posted this 24 March 2014

Thanks to all. I think I will go the magnum case route. I thought about fillers after talking with some cast bullet military rifle shooters, and it did seem doable but it does require a bit of extra effort. I thought about  mounting my RCBS powder measure in position 3 on my dillon press to meter out the filler and then Id have to crimp on a different machine. Might be interesting to try sometime. Ive also got 8 pounds of Accurate Arms 5477 coming . Itll probably give me fits too as far as unburned powder. Im gonna give it a go in the 357s and 44 magnum.  Dug up some load data in Wolf Publishing's, Propellant Profiles. That book has been pretty helpful when looking for new powders to use...  Thanks again..Good shooting..

Attached Files

olesmokey posted this 25 March 2014

I have more guns in 357 magnum than 38 special, but Im just not much of a magnum load shooter. I shoot the action pistol matches at my club and it doesnt take a lot of power to knock over plates or bowling pins, and if I keep my bullets under 1000 fps I dont have to deal with the leading. I have to admit though the powder supply issue has made it a challenge for me to shoot 38specials. Seems like the only powders available are made for magnums.

Attached Files

TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 25 March 2014

shooting light loads of Unique (10gr) behind 300 and 400 gr bullets (in the .405Win) I've found that a 3/4” square of paper towel will both position the powder and keep the bore much cleaner.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 March 2014

keeping in mind the many cautions concerning fillers ... i have ( so far ) had good luck with dabs of cotton balls .

and cleaner luck with the BPI plastic granules as onondaga gary has recommended; only i keep forgetting to order enough.

ken

Attached Files

303PV posted this 25 March 2014

By adding a filler the volume in the case is reduced .The total projectile mass goes up (slightly) Therefore  pressure will go up and the powder burns better. I have experimented a lot with filler in rifle cartridges. But I always took care to have a full case. It also positions the powder against the primer,  like Onondaga says.I always like his contributions. He is a real experimenter!

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 25 March 2014

I am reluctant to use fillers in straight wall cases, as I have ringed several chambers in doing so. In an N- frame. 38 Special or any revolver chambered for .357 Magnum, I would have no issues with increasing charges with 4227 to improve combustion. A charge of 10 grains with #358429 seated to 1.55” OAL.in .38 Special brass is only about 14,000cup. An increase of a grain or so will still be safe. I would not exceed 11 grains in .38 Special brass. A charge of 14.5 grains with #358429 in .357 brass at 1.55” OAL is a full charge load at 1233 fps and 40,800 cup, according to Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Ed. p.259

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

olesmokey posted this 26 March 2014

Bye the way can somebody explain what ringed chambers means. Pardon my ignorance. Thanks. Bob

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 26 March 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7625>olesmokey

"Ringed Chamber” is a descriptive term coined to name a condition resulting from a bulged or burned away amount of chamber steel in a firearm from high pressure / high burn temperature loads damaging a firearm with the resulting loss of safety and loss of accuracy due to the damage of what appears as a ring shaped pattern of  damage in the chamber circumference ahead of the area where  the brass case ends.

Some powders have a reputation of ringing chambers also. Hodgdon LilGun near MAXIMUM load levels burns at such a high temperature that the result of repeated MAXIMUM loads with LilGun is an amount of steel being removed from chambers ahead of the brass area in a chamber ringing pattern.

Ed's advise is best, use a recommended charge of IMR4227. Getting familiar with fillers and their safe use is a debatable subject and opinions and facts will vary significantly. The recommendations I use to give were from a MILSURP rifle site and respected ballistic scientists. The pages I linked were a good read with specific safety parameters that do avoid ringed chamber problems. The site has been taken down.

I could verbally explain it in lecture form, but it is a long story. Let me know if you would like a phone call.

Gary

Gary

Attached Files

mike0841 posted this 26 March 2014

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7625>olesmokey

"Ringed Chamber” is a descriptive term coined to name a condition resulting from a bulged or burned away amount of chamber steel in a firearm from high pressure / high burn temperature loads damaging a firearm with the resulting loss of safety and loss of accuracy due to the damage of what appears as a ring shaped pattern of  damage in the chamber circumference ahead of the area where  the brass case ends. Gary My experience with fillers and ringed chamber comes from a H&R 45-70.  I was using a wad to keep the powder against the primer with 4759.  After many rounds the cases began to show a distinct ring around the area at the base of the bullet.  It continued to grow and upon inspection of the chamber the same ring appeared in the same spot.  Needless to say I quit wadding.  My idea is that the wad being forced out of the case by the burning gasses and slamming into the base of the bullet created a hammer effect, causing it to flatten and expand bulging the case and chamber.  I also used kapok in reduced loads in my 7IHMSA with no ill effects.  Maybe the bottleneck case helped there.  The only other erosion I ran into was with .44Mag and full charges of H110 or 296, after about 12,000 rounds in my Dan Wesson I have a distinct cut (maybe .010in) in the top strap at the barrel cylinder gap.  The chambers don't seem to be affected though.

Mike

Attached Files

norm posted this 26 March 2014

I ringed a chamber in a Ruger 77 7X57 using dacron filler. Lots of people have used fillers with no ill effects but it happened to me in less than 50 rounds.Ring was in the neck area where the base of the cast bullet was. Ring was not deep enough to cause extrction problems but anything that will permanently deform steel is something I avoid. I advise everybody to not use fillers. Maybe I'm paranoid but once bit twice shy.

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 27 March 2014

I have seen the chamber end of a Shiloh Sharps 45-70 barrel after it was sectioned, that had three distinct rings. Shiloh sent it back after the rifle had been rebarreled. No info on the loads but the rifle was originally owned by a knowledgeable shooter/reloader and was purchased by another club member. Obviously caused by some type of over powder wad/filler.   The final bill was $600.00 by the way. If you need fillers or wads to make a rifle shoot, then you need to find the right  recipe or work on your marksmanship.

Attached Files

olesmokey posted this 27 March 2014

Thanks. Good information. Probably not something Im likely to encounter. I have a couple hunting loads that are close to max. but unlikely I'd shoot more than a few each year. Once the supply gets worked out Ill be buying powder for light loads in my pistols. I appreciate everybodys help.

Attached Files

olesmokey posted this 30 March 2014

Okay. Duane was right. I swithched to 357 cases COL 1.595” and 12.0 grains gave me 900fps velocity, ES 41,SD 15. and tight group at 20 yds. Cleaned up most of the left over powder too. It wont be an issue now. Thanks Bob

Attached Files

Close