Lee 320 gr R.E.A.L. new design blocks

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  • Last Post 10 May 2014
onondaga posted this 06 May 2014

After my initial acquaintance with the Lee Modern Minie made with the new design mold blocks from Lee, I decided to try the 320 gr R.E.A.L. as I have had such good results with the 250 grain version in my 1:32 or 1:60 barrels for my Lyman Great Plaines Hunter Rifle.

The mold arrived in fine condition from MidwayUSA. I cleaned and lubricated with my usual method using Comet then clear silicone dielectric grease..

My casting metal for this bullet  is old commercial plumbers lead and very soft/pure lead.. I set my Lee 4-20 bottom pour at just under 800 degrees F. for the pure lead. I fluxed clean and dip warmed the mold end and sprue plate end for 40 seconds in the melt. This made the mold a great temp and the first cast was well filled out and fine. I just kept going.

The bullet weight was very consistent and 20 bullets weighed averaged 321.6 gr with all of them well within 1% of the average. The 2 cavity mold has both cavities well matched for bullet weight and cut the bottom sprues off bullets very flush and cleanly.

I am anxious to get out and shoot these. I put the 1:32 Barrel back on my rifle and put the 1:60 barrel back in storage. I now have 3 pounds of Alliant BMZ substitute so I am ready!

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P5060062_zpsa84fbc61.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P5060061_zps9c69369b.jpg.html>

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delmarskid1 posted this 06 May 2014

They look like they run pretty well.

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Dale53 posted this 07 May 2014

Gary; I know that you are a VERY competent caster and the bullets show it.

I live less than an hour away from Firendship, In, the home of the National Muzzleloading Rifle Ass'n. I have competed there many times in the past. It is a repository for LOTS of good experience (and some, not so good.>). I was talking to one of the older muzzle loading bench rest champions of years gone by. He was a REALLY knowledgeable fellow and had one of the finest collections of desirable rifles ever assembled (including one of the original rifles usedin the first Creedmoor matches including the notes and loading data of the original owner). I digress...

At any rate, he told me that one of the “secrets” of the winning match shooters of black powder muzzle loaders was that they “tempered” their balls. He explained that they used a small amount of tin to improve the consistency of their cast “pure lead” balls (this was round ball bench rest shooting) and also mentioned it was carried over when shooting bullets. He suggested one to two percent of tin.

It works as reported and that small amount of tin does not over harden the “pure lead” balls and bullets. You can still load a patched ball easily but you can cast at a lower temperature and it is much easier to get good results (pure lead balls can be a pain to cast, as you know).

Just a thought or two for those that don't have your experience...

Dale53

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onondaga posted this 07 May 2014

Dale53

Hi Dale, thanks for your comments. Sure 2% Tin does not appreciably harden Lead and it does improve flow characteristics for casting . I don't do that for reason of cheap and experience. I could purchase Tin to do that and casting would be a bit easier to get quality at lower temperature.

In reality, I am 64 in a couple weeks and have cast bullets since age 7 starting with round balls. I can get them to come out well without Tin. I know some casters just can't work well with pure Lead and the 2% Tin added will really help them and not hurt the low hardness needed for soft round balls to be loaded easily and shot well..

The tempering you mention for match shooting round balls is something I will do with soft MYSTERY alloys. I don't heat treat and quench to make them harder, I do the opposite and think that might be what you are referring to.

Round balls and other bullets that are desired to be as soft as possible when using a mystery alloy that has unidentified trace metals can be treated specially to remove surface hardening that occurs with mystery alloys. I place the bullets on a pan and place into a cold oven, set temperature well safely below melt initiation temperature by 100 degrees. Heat soak the bulets in the closed oven for 1 hour then turn OFF the oven and keep oven closed till the oven and bullets cool of their own accord to room temperature.

The heat soak and cooling of their own accord will draw out any hardness done intentionally or unintentionally by heat treating and  quenching. This will make the bullets as soft as they can be for the mystery alloy that has been used. This also greatly increases uniformity of hardness for the whole batch and removes a variable for match shooting round balls in the batch by increasing uniformity. I believe this is what the “OLD FELLOW” you mention does with match round balls.

Gary

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 07 May 2014

I have also read, but probably will not be able to cite it now, that adding a very small amount of tin to pure lead was referred to as “tempering".    And, yes, this was done by the old timers. 

It should not be a burdon of making your lead do what you want it to, but making good bullets and good accuracy. 

There are tradtitionalists, and then there are those that prefer modern black powder firearms.  The bottom line is personal satisfaction for the individual.  Duane

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tomme boy posted this 08 May 2014

I have both of the Lee REAL molds and they both shoot outstanding. They really started to shoot well when I started to use a pre lubed felt over powder wad. They went from 3.5” groups to 2” groups at 100 yards. One thing about the REAL's they do not like to be driven fast. I really like to use real black powder. I use 70 grains of 3F, over powder wad lubed with bore butter, slug lubed on lower band with bore butter.

I even used the over powder wads on round balls as well. Seating pressure has to be the same every time to really make them shoot well. Good luck and lets see some pics of the gun and target when you can.

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onondaga posted this 08 May 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6494>tomme boy  I have been using veggie wads with the 250 gr R.E.A.L and will use them with the new 320 gr. 

after charging I seat 2 - .060” wads 1/4” into muzzle with a ball starter then fill the 1/4” with bore butter and load the bullet. These are the wads I have been happy with: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/758084/walters-wads-50-caliber-512-diameter-0060-thickness-bag-of-1000?cmvc=ProductFinding

Gary

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tomme boy posted this 09 May 2014

I bought a bunch of hard felt and a hole punch. I have enough felt to last me 3 lifetimes. I put them in a ziplock bag with some bore butter and throw them into the microwave. Need them a little then put just a little more in the bag and do it again.

Amazing how something this simple helps. I have not ever tried the Alox. Some like it, I am one of the others that does not. Not for Black powder anyway.

I am shooting mine out of 2 T/C New Englanders and a CVA Hawken. One of the T/C's is an earlier one that does not have the false muzzle. That is the one that shoots the best out of the 5 different ML's I have. The New Englander has a nice huge trigger guard. I love this for hunting. The 250 gr with shoot right through a deer at 75 yds. So I know the 350 should. I don't think they expand really much at all. Nice clean hole in and out. But that is what I like to spread more blood to track. And to let it out of the deer faster too!

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onondaga posted this 09 May 2014

Hit the range today and loaded 80 grains with digital scale Alliant BMZ powder with 2- .060 veggie wads and a dab of BoreButter after starting the wads 1/4". This load level and the 320 gr. R.E.A.L. produced substantial recoil bordering on intolerable for me with my Lyman Great Plains Hunter rifle. That rifle never hit me this hard before, but the accuracy was acceptable for 50 yards as a Black Bear load.  I may back off 5 grains. I did no cleaning between shots at all and fired 30 rounds including sight-in. All loading was smooth and easy and so was clean-up at home.  I could live with this accuracy for Bear:

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corerf posted this 10 May 2014

felt wads soaked in emmerts lube. The bore butter down the bore loose just gives me fits to think about. Give it a try. Soak them in bore butter if you prefer it. Just use the wad as a dispenser in the barrel for whatever your favorite lube is.

Your accuracy may improve with a completely solid load column.

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onondaga posted this 10 May 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1362>corerf:

"The bore butter down the bore loose just gives me fits to think about."

 This doesn't happen with my lube, I have scoped it to check.  The 2 fiber wads are seated 1/4” down the muzzle then I place about 1/2 cc of BoreButter in the muzzle and start the bullet. I push the ramrod and drive the bullet home to the charge with about 80 pounds push seating the bullet. The column is solid from the 80 pound push. The R.E.A.L. bullet in pure lead easily adapts to an excellent fit to the bore as they are .514” and very soft, so the bullet acts sort of like a piston on the way down and pushes the lube between the bullet bottom and the wads to give an even very thin shiny coat of lube down the whole length of the bore. I have scope verified this after seating a  bullet. It is just shiny with no blobs and works well for me.

I used some old Lyman Revolver Lubricant, it is a ML lubricant also, and tried it the same way over the wads and below the bullet. It meters out just as evenly as the BoreButter when loading....no blobs, just a little shine all the way down.

Either of these products works well for me in that I fired 30 rounds and over the curse of 30 rounds there was zero change in ramrod force needed to load the rifle and loading remained very easy for 30 rounds. I'd call that very successful and this was the very first time the rifle loaded so easily with zero swabbing between shots for a whole day of shooting.  This makes shooting a muzzleloading rifle a lot more fun and a lot less work and costs me no cleaning patches, solvent and elbow grease at the range. You gotta believe I am going to stick with this method!!!!

I did have a lot of concern that I would stick a bullet in the bore if it fouled up over the 30 shots. This simply did NOT happen at all and the rifle was a pleasure to load and  shoot all 30 shots. Part of this success has to be attributed to the Alliant BMZ substitute powder I used. It is the cleanest propellant I have ever used in a muzzle loader...bar none.

By the way...shoulder bruise is in full bloom from these heavy loads:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/IMG_20140510_143926080_zps0f8ef280.jpg.html>

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