Green Dot and 30-30 plinking load

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Last Post 18 July 2014

Standard Member

Blindstitch posted this 17 June 2014

Some how after using jacketed rounds and not liking the cost of projectiles I was given some cast lead with gas check and things took off.

I picked up some Acme 135 grain non gas checked cast lead and want to develop a plinker load for the 30-30. Partially to save money but also get less recoil for younger shooters. Only problem is I'm having trouble with data. I found some in an old Lyman Cast manual but i'm wondering how low I can go to make a subsonic load with Green Dot powder. The starting load says 7 but would 4 or 5 work.

Any insight would be helpful.

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Standard Member

onondaga posted this 17 June 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8162>Blindstitch

You should consider safety. The powder manufacturers specify minimum charges specifically for safety reasons as going lower with many powders sets up a risk of detonation by the powder being vigorously agitated into motion by primer flash to the point that powder ignition velocity changes into high speed detonation or explosive. Your reasoning that 4-5 gr GreenDot should work is faulty.

Consulting the powder manufacturer is the safest route to answer your question.

Consider asking Hodgdon Powder company technical department about H. Titegroup for your application. Hodgdon has begun publishing subsonic and light load data in several rifle calibers with TiteGroup and claim the powder has good ignition with tiny charges in large cases in their product description for H TiteGroup.

I personally use that powder for subsonic loads in 7.62X39 with a range of weight cast bullets from 90 to 225 grains in that caliber, all subsonic at about 950 fps. My charges run 2.5 to 6 grains to accomplish subsonic in the X39.

Some powders definitely will surprise detonate with below minimum charges. I have personal experience with Rel 7 detonating. An experience like that will transform you to do more research if you survive. Gary

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Standard Member

Blindstitch posted this 17 June 2014

onondaga wrote: your reasoning that 4-5 gr GreenDot should work is faulty. Gary Gary I appreciate your safety concern and yes I want to be safe. I wouldn't have asked the question if I wasn't trying to be safe.

I don't know where you got the should from. I asked would it work. I have been hearing and even saw a video on Youtube about a guy using 2 grains of red dot powder for plinking. But just because you see it on Youtube doesn't mean it's real or true.

I don't mind starting at 7 if that's what I need to do. I have been told by several people that shooting lead cast without a gas check around 1400 fps has the potential for a molten lead ball making a mess of the rifle.

So I ask this question of X bullet and Y powder because I had several recommendations to buy many other powders and you know what I found? Nothing. Lots of stores had IMR 4064 and that was it. In 1 month of looking I found nothing on the list. This weekend I mentioned the powder list to a friend who reloads 12 gauge and he gave me 1/2 pound of Green Dot. So this is where I stand.

Again as I said any insight would be helpful. Thanks.

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Standard Member

onondaga posted this 17 June 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8162>Blindstitch

You said “would” instead of could and did not include a question mark, it is easy to assume you propose “Should Work” and that you were preparing to try that 4-5 grains of Green Dot in your 30-30.

The other matter, Glad you asked,

You have been blatantly misinformed with internet hooey:

“I have been told by several people that shooting lead cast without a gas check around 1400 fps has the potential for a molten lead ball making a mess of the rifle.”

You couldn't make this happen if you wanted to. Consider the barrel time of a bullet at 1400 fps. The powder doesn't even get the bullet warm. Friction will warm the bullet a little bit but not even close enough to melt bullet alloy. This hooey is born from cast bullet shooters that have no clue about bullet fit and have undersize bullets wobble down the bore, get distorted from gas jetting and shoot all over the place.

Load pressure is the correct determining factor for selecting alloy and choosing to use gas checks. Velocity is irrelevant to the correct selection. Gas checks extend the load pressure range of bullets and alloy hardness for plain based bullet selection should be based on load pressure for bullet hardness as well presented by Lee in their 2^nd Edition , Modern Reloading and many other reliable ballistic texts on cast bullets.

You can prove the melting bullet hooey to yourself easily:

Put a lead bullet on a brick. move the hottest tip of a primary flame from a Berns o Matic torch to the bullet. Count seconds before the bullet begins to melt. Record the time. Now do the math and determine how long in time a bullet at 1400 fps is exposed to the flame of your propellant in your barrel's length while shooting. Still believe that hooey you were told about bullets melting in a barrel at 1400 fps?

Gary

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CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 17 June 2014

5.7 gr green dot should get you ~ 1100 fps. the problem you might run into is sticking a bullet in the bore = too little powder. try 5.7, go up or down a little from there. I've used various dots and unique and bullseye for low velocity loads.

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Standard Member

onondaga posted this 17 June 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8162>Blindstitch You have come to a good forum to get information about cast bullet making and shooting and I welcome you. Most of the members are not as blunt as I can be and I hope you enjoy the forum.

Gary

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Standard Member

Blindstitch posted this 17 June 2014

Gary, Good to hear this is a good forum. I like information especially that which isn't false. I was posting over on TheFiringLine.com and striking out when it came to cast. I have the 3rd edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook but load data seems lacking and all the bullets listed are gas checked.

Is there another book that is recommended?

If I can get cast loading down I plan on using it solely in a few rifles I intend to pick up.

303 British, 7.7 Jap and possibly 7.62x39. The reason I asked about the reduced loads besides leading is my wife likes to shoot but when she sees my 30-40 Krag kick me back when shooting from a bench and skin my elbow and i'm 6 foot 200 pounds it discourages her 5 foot 100pounds wet body from giving it a shot.

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Standard Member

Blindstitch posted this 17 June 2014

joeb33050 wrote: 5.7 gr green dot should get you ~ 1100 fps. the problem you might run into is sticking a bullet in the bore = too little powder. try 5.7, go up or down a little from there. I've used various dots and unique and bullseye for low velocity loads. Thanks for the suggestion. Definitely don't want a squib.

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Standard Member

onondaga posted this 17 June 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8162>Blindstitch

All the calibers you mention do excellent with cast and H4895. Hodgdon's 60% rule for reduced loads is excellent with cast:

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf>https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

I suggest ordering H4895 from a reputable dealer and waiting. Any published MAX load of 4895 can be reduced as low as 60% by weight until you get down to 50% case capacity. Ignition at reduced levels is good and safe till the 50% capacity level according to Hodgdon recommendations in the link I provided and has never failed anywhere I have read about.. Generally GOOD to excellent accuracy is had following the Hodgdon recommendation. The rule will provide full hunting power cast loads all the way down to comfortable loads in any of the calibers you mention for your wife.

Correct bullet diameter is the greatest challenge for beginning with cast as it seriously effects accuracy and fun. The general rule is to shoot the largest diameter bullet that will chamber in your firearm. This is usually the chamber throat measurement and best found by a chamber casting rather than trial and error. A lifetime supply of a good chamber casting alloy with good instructions right on the product page, $14.99:

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chamber_casting_alloy.htm>http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chambercastingalloy.htm

I have very few cast bullet molds that drop just right and have a collection of bullet sizing dies that I have honed in custom sizes to match my rifle chamber throats. All my rifles shoot 1 inch or less at 50 yards with at least one load and a couple are even better. This takes dedication and work.

My first and favorite book reference for casting, loads and loading cast is Lee. The chapters on pressure are invaluable for understanding alloy selection for cast bullets:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/639649/lee-modern-reloading-2nd-edition-revised-reloading-manual>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/639649/lee-modern-reloading-2nd-edition-revised-reloading-manual

Gary

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CBA Member

Larry Gibson posted this 17 June 2014

Bullseye is going to work best for a sub sonic load with that cast bullet in the 30-30. I suggest a start load of 4.5 gr and work up to 6.5 gr.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Standard Member

Blindstitch posted this 17 June 2014

Gary, That Hogdon data looks pretty straight forward. Thanks for that. I'll see if the LGS will put some on order or on call for me.

I have the Lee Modern Reloading book so maybe I need to take a second look at it.

Chamber casts will be done as soon as I pick up the new additions to the safe. They'll most likely be dedicated cast rifles.

I loaded up 20 rounds today with 7 grains of Green Dot but I have to wait to see how they perform when I go up to Northern Michigan early next month. I really miss being able to shoot in my own back yard. City life may have its advantages but recreational shooting isn't one of them.

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CBA Member

fa38 posted this 18 June 2014

I have been shooting 8.4 grains of Green Dot with a RCBS 170 grain plain base bullet. Very accurate in my Ruger #1 30-30 at 100 yards. I have not shot it at 200. This is my offhand practice load for the last few years.

The bullet is the RCBS 180 sp that RCBS made for me by withholding the gas check portion of the cherry from the mould blocks when making the mould

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CBA Member

gpidaho posted this 18 June 2014

Blindstich: Im fairly new to cast bullets in rifles. I now have more time to tinker with it in retirement. Ive cast and loaded for revolvers for years. Gary is absolutely correct when he states fit is the all important thing. Taking what I learned with revolvers and properly fitting throats and bores Ive yet to lead a rifle bore to the extent it could not be removed with a patch. (knock on my wooden head). I shoot an H&R Handi Rifle in 30-30 and am free to use bullets not intended for tube magazines. It likes Lee 309-180-R lubed through a .310 die over 10 gr. UNIQUE Max COL. Bullseye 5-6 range should be a good load for a small girl like your wife. Good luck and have fun with it all. GP

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Standard Member

Blindstitch posted this 17 July 2014

I tested my low recoil load and I think it categorizes as no recoil. I'll probably make up some around 9 grains of green dot and see what they do. They do seem to shoot about 4 inches low at 25 yards but that's fine with me for plinking loads. Just have to pick up a shorter front sight.