.22 CALIBER CAST BULLETS

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Last Post 06 January 2020

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joeb33050 posted this 28 June 2014

.22 CALIBER CAST BULLETS Starting in 2003 I spent ~ 18 months trying to get a .223 Rem. Savage 12 BVSS to shoot cast bullets accurately. It and I failed. I have just spent another 18 months trying again with a Savage 12 FV in .223 Rem., a 22” sporter barrel in .223, and a 26” varmint barrel in 22-250. Weaver T36 and Lyman 30X STS scopes were used. The gun and barrels shoot jacketed bullets accurately. I have bought molds and sizing dies and had molds altered and shot thousands of shots with different charges of different powders with different primers and different bullets; and at this point can reliably shoot 100 yard 5 shot five group averages around 2”. Sometimes less, sometimes more. My record of failure with .22 caliber cast bullets extends back to a Winchester low wall in 22 Hornet, a Savage ?19? bolt action 22 Hornet, a Remington 222 700 BDL Varmint and a few others I (thankfully) can't remember. John Alexander has assured me and us that getting a .22 cf rifle to shoot accurately is possible. I'm starting to think that he's laughing at me. I'm going to let up on the .22s and cast; I'll try now and then-but see no hope for any 1” groups in the future. What I'd like is for some of you successful .22 cf shooters to shoot a set of five 5 shot 100 yard groups, and tell me/us about the rifle and load and ?? Anyone?

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max503 posted this 06 January 2020

Looked again. That was actually 5 in one big hole.

Thanks for the article John.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 January 2020

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max503 posted this 03 January 2020

I tried some unsized 55 grain Lee bullets at 50 yards. No gas check. Light coat of LLA. Out of eight shots with 700X, 4 made one big hole.

So there's hope. This project will continue...

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 28 December 2019

Have you seated a bullet into a sized case and extracted to see if that is part of the problem?

Just curious.

John

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max503 posted this 28 December 2019

I expand to .001 less than bullet diameter. I made a stepped M type expander die with .222/.224/.226 inch steps. I used the .222/.224 for jacketed and run it deeper to use 0.224/.226 for cast. The larger diameter is run into the case mouth just enough to create an easy seat for starting the bullet.

Never have experienced any problems getting .22 cal cast to shoot. Have shot them in two Hornets and a .223 Rem with great success. Velocity up to 2400fps and accuracy regularly 1.5 MOA and less. The current Zastava Hornet LOVES the NOE 37gr copy of the 225107 and will cloverleaf them at 50m over 8gr Lil Gun for 2250fps.

I was just thinking that. I made one for 30-06 and it worked real good. The largest one NOE sells is .224. Even that might be too tight.

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Squid Boy posted this 27 December 2019

Pardon me for being a little late to this party but reading corerf's post got me thinking. I would really like to see a chronograph readout of that 4200 fps load. My Quick Load says no, unless you have more than 26" of barrel and don't mind pressures above 70,000 psi with compressed loads of Varget. Just wondering. Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

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JeffinNZ posted this 26 December 2019

I expand to .001 less than bullet diameter. I made a stepped M type expander die with .222/.224/.226 inch steps. I used the .222/.224 for jacketed and run it deeper to use 0.224/.226 for cast. The larger diameter is run into the case mouth just enough to create an easy seat for starting the bullet.

Never have experienced any problems getting .22 cal cast to shoot. Have shot them in two Hornets and a .223 Rem with great success. Velocity up to 2400fps and accuracy regularly 1.5 MOA and less. The current Zastava Hornet LOVES the NOE 37gr copy of the 225107 and will cloverleaf them at 50m over 8gr Lil Gun for 2250fps.

Cheers from New Zealand

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John Alexander posted this 26 December 2019

Ken is right on. A .222" expander is probably too small. A pulled bullet from the dummy round made with the sized case will tell.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 December 2019

.. 22 expander ... on my 222 rem. i used a 0.225 expander for 225 castings. the brass springs smaller after the expander exits, and the brass is stronger than your casting.

also, might try a trick that johna mentioned just a while back .. take/test 3 of your brass and taper ream the inside necks a tad ... so they just barely hold the casting near the mouth. plumber's reamer from ace hardware will work to try.

i wouldn't be surprised if your 0.222 expander is giving you 0.221 bullets after seating.

we shall overcome: mother nature is no match for wishful thinking ! ...

ken

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OU812 posted this 26 December 2019

Reloader 7 and H4198 works good at faster velocities. Tite Group works very well at lower velocities under 1600fps.

Ball powders will work, but will foul barrel much quicker if Fouling is not kept soft, much like black powder when shooting cast.

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max503 posted this 26 December 2019

Yes I use gas checks. Haven't seen any signs of instability. My NOE expander is .222 so it could be too tight. I should have got a 224.

Those bullet drop consistently at .227. Maybe I could try some unsized. I will also try some range scrap. I can get that.

Anyway, I will keep trying. Several people on the internet use 19-20 grains of H335. I'm going to try that and some IMR 4227.

I think if I cut the sprues with a gloved hand while pressing down on the mold that might help the bases. I was planning on this being my primary cast bullet rifle. If I can't get it to shoot I may have to buy me a 30 caliber to replace the 30-06 I sold a while back.

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John Alexander posted this 25 December 2019

No wonder you are frustrated, you have a real puzzle.

Are the bullet holes in those peach basket groups all round or almost round? Any full bullet profile holes?

Some suggestions:

I assume you are using gas checks. If not it would be interesting to try them and see if that helps.

Make sure that bore is free of any leading before each range session. That is one of the few things I can think of that would cause complete loss of accuracy. Lead Out cloth is great, medium steel wool around a worn out brush will do the job and not hurt anything.

Either rate of twist that Tikka produces will stabilize the bullets you are using.

Try some very soft alloy, range scrap, or 20 or 25:1 from a dealer. Should mark easily and deeply with a thumb nail. BHN >10.

Make a dummy round. Use a fired case and use something gummy to stick a bullet in the neck with the bullet long. Chamber and extract and measure length of round with bullet pushed back by contact with lands.

Make another dummy round this time with a sized case with round .020" longer than the first dummy round, chamber and extract. Hopefully, there will be land marks on the nose of the Lee bullet and also contact marks on the front of the front band. If not make a longer dummy round and try again.

If clear marks on nose but can't get anything on front band, lapping out the Lee push through die to .226 may be worthwhile. .225 worked for both my Tikkas, when new, but who knows.

Pull the bullet from the dummy round and measure diameter to be sure that the sized case is not sizing down the bullet or mutilating it in other ways. If the bullet is being changed during seating, your expander button from NOE may not be big enough.

I used to worry about bumps on bullet bottoms but never could see that they affected groups. I now cut sprues with a gloved hand while pressing down so no bumps. Improving the sprue cutter as you suggest can't hurt anything if done carefully on a very flat surface but hand cutting is easy especially with soft alloys.

If you PM me your email address I will send you a copy of my article on the Lee bullet. Don't know that it will solve your problem but there might be something useful there.

Let me know if any of this helps. Merry Christmas.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 December 2019

max503 ... remember that the first ( and only repeatable ) rule for our bubble gum ( thanks ric ) castings are that they be snug in the THROAT ... before firing. heck, even Onondaga Gary agreed with this ...

you size to 225 ... how about 226? ... 227 ? ...

**************

back when i was serious, i occasionally got a 1 inch group ... and the next day with nearly the same loads ( i thought ) i get an 8 inch group ... my perfectly swaged ( & flat bases ! ) but undersized bullets still shot 8 inch groups ... i tried some commercially swaged absolutely gorgeous 22 bullets from Italy ... 0.223 ... 8 inch groups.

i found that very ugly but snug bullets would almost always shoot 3 inches or under. dang rule 1 .... btw, i have been searching for Rule2 for 50 years ...

*************

...other than my ouija board, most of my breakthrough ideas come about 2 in the morning ... i bet if you keep the Tikka faith, a good load will seek you out before long ... besides ... we learn more from our rougher journeys ... who knows ? ... just maybe the solution to your puzzle will lead to that long-sought Rule2 !! ...

ken

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max503 posted this 25 December 2019

And no, I haven't slugged my bore. I don't like the idea of pounding anything down a barrel. Even if it is a coated cleaning rod. I thought about honing out my push die to .226.

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max503 posted this 25 December 2019

To answer your questions:

I've tried 6.0 grains of both Red Dot and 700X. I've also tried a light loading of Unique. I tried Blue Dot. I'm aiming for 1700fps. I've tried crushing the bullet into the lands as well as loading the bullet more deeply into the case in order to give it more support. I've tried full-length and partial sizing. I bought an NOE expander button to help with inside neck sizing. I've used both a lubrisizer with Felix Lube and a Lee push die with LLA. (LLA works best.) I size to .225 with both. I've tried both linotype and some alloy that came from WW and I believe it's used to make 22lr ammo but I'm not sure. All of the above efforts have given me peach basket size groups. Switching to 4759 brought groups down to grapefruit size. When I tried to weight-sort a batch of bullets I noticed they wobbled on the sprue cutoff scar. I'm thinking maybe I should remove the cut-off plate and lightly sand/flatten the bottom surface so that it guillotines the sprue off more better. I trimmed my cases. With jacket bullets this gun will take a beer can off a fence post at 300 yards.

For some reason I cannot find a copy of the Fouling Shot you mentioned on either my phone or my laptop.

I am frustrated. Woe is me. Merry Christmas.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 24 December 2019

It would be easier to help if you told us what loads you have been using, what alloys, how the bullets fit at the length you are trying, etc.

Your interest in a H335 load that is 80% of a full charge jacketed load may be a clue to your troubles. What velocities are you trying to get? Shooting CBs at high speed with good accuracy is difficult and with short stumpy bullets even more difficult. Your 55 grain Lee bullet has the same sectional density as a 100 grain 30 caliber bullets and I have never heard of anybody doing any decent shooting at high speed with that weight of 30 caliber cast bullet either. Do yourself a favor and try to get good accuracy at under 1,800 fps first.

Why do you think the bullet bases need to be trued? Unless they have some huge defect, quit worrying about them. They will shoot better that the 4" you are now getting.

I found it dead easy to get strings of 5-shot groups that averaged under 1.5 moa with the same Lee bullet and same Tikka you are using. The bullets were wrinkled and no load development or other fussing around was involved. (see Sept./Oct. 2019 Fouling Shot p.26).

Don't get discouraged, that combination will shoot.

John

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max503 posted this 24 December 2019

I've been struggling with cast bullets in my Tikka 223. I've tried a Lyman 47 grain bullet - which shoots just fine out of my Hornet - but it shoots shotgun patterns out of the Tikka.

I recently tried the Lee 55 grain bullet. It "patterns" with any fast burning powder - Unique, Red Dot, 700X. With SR4759 I got the groups down to 4" @ 100 yards. So that's got me thinking of trying some other slower powders.

I saw a load of 19 grains of H335 with a 55 grain bullet. That's reduced several grains from the jacketed load.

Is it safe to reduce H335?

Is it safe to reduce IMR 3031?

Is it safe to reduce IMR 4064?

edit I'm going to have to true-up the bases of those bullets somehow. Any suggestions?

This gun has got me stuck in Cast Bullet Purgatory. My 22 Hornet never did this to me. I wonder what gives?

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2014

Well it sure is a 14” twist! Dang. It does shoot the light stuff real good though.

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tturner53 posted this 25 July 2014

I'll double check it. I got the bullets John made for me today. Look good. I'll try them in my 9” twist K Hornet. Wouldn't it be funny if I beat him in the “Little Bore” match using bullets he made?! But for now I'm going huntin' over on the coast. Cool off a bit.