.22 CALIBER CAST BULLETS

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joeb33050 posted this 28 June 2014

.22 CALIBER CAST BULLETS               Starting in 2003 I spent ~ 18 months trying to get a .223 Rem. Savage 12 BVSS to shoot cast bullets accurately. It and I failed.             I have just spent another 18 months trying again with a Savage 12 FV in .223 Rem., a 22” sporter barrel in .223, and a 26” varmint barrel in 22-250. Weaver T36 and Lyman 30X STS scopes were used.  The gun and barrels shoot jacketed bullets accurately. I have bought molds and sizing dies and had molds altered and shot thousands of shots with different charges of different powders with different primers and different bullets; and at this point can reliably shoot 100 yard 5 shot five group averages around 2”. Sometimes less, sometimes more.             My record of failure with .22 caliber cast bullets extends back to a Winchester low wall in 22 Hornet, a Savage ?19? bolt action 22 Hornet, a Remington 222 700 BDL Varmint and a few others I (thankfully) can't remember.             John Alexander has assured me and us that getting a .22 cf rifle to shoot accurately is possible. I'm starting to think that he's laughing at me.             I'm going to let up on the .22s and cast; I'll try now and then-but see no hope for any 1” groups in the future.             What I'd like is for some of you successful .22 cf shooters to shoot a set of five 5 shot 100 yard groups, and tell me/us about the rifle and load and ?? Anyone?

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John Alexander posted this 28 June 2014

Joe, As the guy who tempted you into the 22 foolishness I certainly am not laughing at you.  I am a little surprised that you have had so much trouble but I know you are not the only one. Now that twists are available (at least in 223) fast enough to stabilize a decent length bullet it should be easier.    I am trying out a new, for me, bullet from NOE. It is a near clone of my old 72grain NEI design.  The three cavity mold works well and I have a good sized bunch of bullets cast.  if it shows promise i will send you a batch. Has anybody else tried this design?

I will be very interested to hear what luck others are having with the 22 bore.

John

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99 Strajght posted this 29 June 2014

I agree with you on the 22 Hornet. I had one with a 1 in 16 twist that would not shoot any 22 cast bullet. I had it rebarreled to a 1 in 14 twist and it still would not shoot. I have had good lock with a 222 and a 22-250  with 1 in 14 twist. And  223 with a 1 in 12 twist. I can get 1 in. groups if everything is right. The mold that works the best for me is the Saeco #221, 60 gr. About 2000 fps seems to work the best. For powder 3031, 4064 and varget are the ones I get the best groups. I size the bullet with a Lee 225 diam. and use 45-45-10 lub.  Good luck

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Coydog posted this 29 June 2014

I have good luck with my 22-250 with cast and have a 3/4” group and I use Lyman 55gr mold and that is the long boolit they have and did not have any problems.the rifle i usen is a Rem. 700.

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Paul Pollard posted this 29 June 2014

"The gun and barrels shoot jacketed bullets accurately."

Could you define this with actual numbers? It would be a good reference.

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joeb33050 posted this 30 June 2014

Paul Pollard wrote: "The gun and barrels shoot jacketed bullets accurately."

Could you define this with actual numbers? It would be a good reference.Sure. 5 shot 100 yard “ Savage 12 BVSS, 11/29/03 Sierra 52 gr HPBT match +1410, 22/IMR4198, .825, .55. .5 Savage 12FV 2/13/13 223 Rem Horn 60gr VMAX, 25/Varget .85, .875 4/2/14 Horn 55 gr. Vmax, 25 Varget 1.025, 1.125 Savage 10, 223 Rem 22” sporter bbl, 2/19/14 Horn 55 gr Vmax, 25/Varget, 1.45 2/26/14 Horn 55 gr Vmax, 23/IMR4895, 1.4, 1.2 Savage 10 22-250 hvy varmint bbl, 2/5/14, Horn 55 gr Vmax, 34/Varget, .8, 1.4

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John Alexander posted this 30 June 2014

In response to Joe's request for reports of the accuracy of 22 cast bullets for the average of five 5-shot groups I can report on a new mold.

I recently bought an NOE three cavity mold for their 22570 RN design. The design is very close to a 72 grain custom mold I used in competition in the 1980s.

The mold showed excellent workmanship and after cleaning and breaking in cast excellent looking bullets. The nose measured a tad over .219” which should be good for a 22 bore but is a little small for my rifles.

I cast a bunch out of wheelweight alloy.  I didn't sort them by cavity and of course didn't sort them by weight because this destroys the karma.  They were sized .226” with LBT Blue only in the tiny groove ahead of the gas check and seated as long as I could chamber them which was 2.40” in the 223 case.

I loaded them ahead of 5 grains of TiteGroup only because that's what I had in the measure and the setting for for my loads with the 85 grain Mos bullet I had been using. Velocity was 1,500 fps.

From my Tikka Lite I have shot 11-5shot groups that average 1.24MOA. I haven't tried any other loads although I did try two groups with a shorter overall length which shot much larger groups.   Before anybody orders this mold please understand that this bullet is TOO LONG TO BE STABILIZED IN THE 14” TWIST common in most 22 center fires.  If it fits the rifle properly it should shoot groups at least as small as the 1.24” groups mentioned above in a good rifle.  But it will take a 10.5” inch or tighter twist to stabilize.  This limits its use mostly to some 223 rifles made with tight twists although I have heard that Savage may be  using 9” twists for their recent 22-250s.  John 

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PETE posted this 30 June 2014

John,

I have a Savag Mod. 12 that I bought a few year back and has a 1-9” twist. These recent posts got me going to find out what it can do with a 60 gr. NOE bullet. It shoots fairly good with a 60 gr. SAECO 221. But doesn't average under an inch. Best 4-5 shot groups were 1 1/8-, 1", 7/8-, & 5/16 but were just test loads spanning four diiferent. loads, but were shot consecutivey. Ran out out those test loads and haven't been back to see if it will do the same only shootb5-5 shot groups. Pete

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joeb33050 posted this 30 June 2014

John Alexander wrote: In response to Joe's request for reports of the accuracy of 22 cast bullets for the average of five 5-shot groups I can report on a new mold.

I recently bought an NOE three cavity mold for their 22570 RN design. The design is very close to a 72 grain custom mold I used in competition in the 1980s.

The mold showed excellent workmanship and after cleaning and breaking in cast excellent looking bullets. The nose measured a tad over .219” which should be good for a 22 bore but is a little small for my rifles.

I cast a bunch out of wheelweight alloy.  I didn't sort them by cavity and of course didn't sort them by weight because this destroys the karma.  They were sized .226” with LBT Blue only in the tiny groove ahead of the gas check and seated as long as I could chamber them which was 2.40” in the 223 case.

I loaded them ahead of 5 grains of TiteGroup only because that's what I had in the measure and the setting for for my loads with the 85 grain Mos bullet I had been using. Velocity was 1,500 fps.

From my Tikka Lite I have shot 11-5shot groups that average 1.24MOA. I haven't tried any other loads although I did try two groups with a shorter overall length which shot much larger groups.   Before anybody orders this mold please understand that this bullet is TOO LONG TO BE STABILIZED IN THE 14” TWIST common in most 22 center fires.  If it fits the rifle properly it should shoot groups at least as small as the 1.24” groups mentioned above in a good rifle.  But it will take a 10.5” inch or tighter twist to stabilize.  This limits its use mostly to some 223 rifles made with tight twists although I have heard that Savage may be  using 9” twists for their recent 22-250s.  John John; Is this outdoors a t 100 yards?Thanks;joe b.

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John Alexander posted this 30 June 2014

Joe, No they were shot in my 50 yard tunnel so the groups averaged .62".  I will shoot some groups at 100 yards outside in a few days and report. John

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.22-10-45 posted this 01 July 2014

When I first got my .22 Hornet, I tried every jacketed bullet I could find..including expensive custom match. With these I established the accuracy benchmark. Then the real work began attemting to equal this level of accuracy with cast. I tried just about every .22 mould I could get my hands on..including Eagan MX. Nothing really was consistant. I had an old original Ideal 22336 that dropped at 60grs. cast from Lyman #2. Chucking some of these in bench lathe collet, I faced off to 50gr. some P.B., others I turned g.c. shank. These prooved to be the most accurate to date...sent off samples to Fred Leeth at Pioneer Products, for nose-pour copies. The next biggest breakthrough was when I made a tapered sizer die to fit my Lyman 45. The taper matches the leade angle in chamber, the adjusting screw on sizer permits varying dia. as well as length of taper. In use, 1st. driving band is taper sized .224dia. bullet seating is adjusted so this first band is fully engraved as action closes. My barrel is a 26” 1-14” Shilen. action is original panneled action Sharps Borchardt, scope is Leupold 12X. Groups at 100yds. are around 3/4".. some are as small as 3/8"..but these are not common.the average probably closer to 1". all of this didn't come easy or quickly..about 5 years of constant experimenting..(I'm still at it). Best of luck!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 July 2014

hey 22-10-45 ... about what was the accuracy baseline with those exotic mj pro-jectiles ?

i got my toy-weight ruger 77h ( with mj ) down to 1 moa but maybe i need to get it back together again...

ken

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.22-10-45 posted this 01 July 2014

With the 40 & 45gr. V-Max, I was getting groups in the low .3's

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Loren Barber posted this 02 July 2014

Joe,  I recently read three articles posted in the site, CastPics regarding shooting cast bullets in a 0.223.  I won't try to summarize the articles, but it seemed that 40 grain bullets worked best for MOA at 100 yds.Loren

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corerf posted this 02 July 2014

Because Ill stir a pot and don't really care any more.... I'm going out on a limb.

Id like to comment on Joes jacketed bullet groups. You chose the Savage platform to use as a test basis, THE BEST choice on could make IMHO. This is a platform I am quite fond of and have considerable experience with (unlike the Rem 700 Uber-Rifles).

Those 22 CF jacketed groups are shameful- I say that based on what my Savages in factory finish have done (223 and 22-250). Not commenting on YOUR performance, simply that the rifles are not shooting as accurately as I would expect. Here where I live, Savages a plenty. Every freak Cal resident thinks he's a sniper. What do they buy--- a 223 or 308. If not sold a bill of goods (kool-aid that is freely distributed here in the land that Communism was formed and flourishing), they do buy a Savage. Then they do “usually” proceed to shoot .5 groups all day long. Makes them feel very good that they have shot small groups (They Become Mark Wahlburg!!). But a blind man with a Savage 223 BVSS and hunting ammo can usually shoot .5-.75 in a gale force wind at 100. Its not the shooter, its the platform. They inexplicably work. If it were just me and my experiences, I'd refrain. But its darn near every other Savage owner I have met here. Story is the same. I laugh at some .25 groups that folks believe are just the end of the world as we know it. Other owners laugh too, as we all know that Savages can shoot much, much, much smaller groups without any mods, or special fitment. Rifles assembled by- Aliens, God Himself, a special friend?----- by a stroke of genius or voodoo at the Savage plant, are made correctly the first time!! Just a factory barrel, headspaced at the factory on a factory stock (OK maybe not ALWAYS the tupperware ones- Ill admit)

I own what I will leave as MANY Savages. Not one CF 22 will shoot more than 1 inch, any conditions, any time, factory ammo, stocks, triggers. Now the bigger bores I have on factory ammo will do .75 to 1.5 with a scope on windy days (no accutrigger, just standard triggers). This includes 30-06, 270, 7mm RM. Be advised, I don't own an AXIS or the cheeps sold as combos. Genuine Savage 10/12/110/112 or Stevens 200. Period.

Not telling you YOUR SHOOTING is poor or YOUR LOADING is poor. JOE, here me now.... Not commenting on YOU!!

Im baffled by why your last entry, the Heavy Bbl 22-250 is shooting SUCH HUGE groups. Huge is larger than .5 inch (on jacketed bullets). This rifle should be shooting teeny tiny jacketed groups. TEEENNNNy TIIINNNY. Itsy bits groups. There should be no struggle to get day to day, all day long, hot barrel, cold barrel, bent barrel rusty barrel, crimped barrel groups of .5 inch. This rifle just shoots stupid accurate, in part due to 22-250 inherent natural accuracy (and I can't explain that but its true nonetheless). This is what drove me to type this message.

I have essentially the same rifle. My first group was sub .750 while breaking the barrel in. Thats the biggest group it ever shot. Smallest was immeasurable by me. ONE 22 cal bullet hole each at 4200 fps (bookoo Varget and massive case prep that folks here don't believe makes any difference in accuracy) Granted the immeasurable hole group came after a new stock and much in brass prep but........ it still gave .375 groups on Remington Bulk 50gr 40 count Bass Pro special deal day ammo. Thats with a Bushnell cheese ball Dusk to Dawn Banner 6-18x50mm scope. A $125.00 scope on a price match several years ago. .375 was the norm on TUPPERWARE!!

I know SEVERAL people with SAME RIFLE in 22-250, who ALLLLLLL get the same performance. I may make assumptions, but I do so based on what I see happen. Im an idiot though so .... think Jerry Lewis in rare form.

If the Savages are NOT shooting .5 groups with jacketed bullets of the grade and sophistication that you have displayed in the data, then the test platform (rifles) may very well be suspect. All Im doing is looking at the results you entered. AR's are producing smaller groups with pencil barrels than your Savage 223 is. I am NO RESPECTER of ANY AR! Were they used rifles? Beaters? Abused? High Round Count? Barrels unscrewed and rescrewed? Not broke in properly? Frankensteins? My 270 is a Second Owner Stevens 200. Idiot thought he was Mark Wahlburg. Camo paint stock, Clear DuraCoat on metal. Bipod! He put 400 rounds thru it so he says. Looks like maybe thats true. Its the poorest of shooters, I give that to the lack of ANY break in. He fired 200 rounds first day he owned it, not a patch run thru that day. Nothing like plating the barrel and then giving it a nuclear reactor exposure to finish it off. I believe the gun could shoot on the 22 inch crappy factory barrel and tupperware better had idiot #1 been better informed and done due diligence. Still, it shoots on par with your 22's. That SHOULD NOT be happening as I see it.

Im not a lucky man by any means. I didn't stumble onto 10 Savages that just shoot like crazy. Since they all shoot, I can make a fair assessment that they all (Everyones Savages) SHOULD shoot similar. This is where I am flawed, I assume way too much in this life. Maybe Im luckier than I think.

I see you have other experiences, 22 Hornet, etc.

I have only one cast bullet example in 22 CF. Contender 22 K- Hornet. 10 inch stainless barrel. Cut by Fred Smith at Bullberry.

It shoots cast loads (one bullet, 46 GR lyman rn) under 1.5 inch in the same wind the Savage large bores (270, etc) will shoot factory at .75 to 1.5. I will check my loading data next time in garage, I know I am not pushing the bullet hard but I am seeking IIRC AT or better than 2000 fps. The pistol pops primers with LilGun at 3k fps and primers fall out (34 gr Midsouth Varmint Nightmare). 2800 is about all I can do with a 34 gr bullet on a 10 inch barrel, reliably. So that 2000 fps is getting it done with respect to barrel length. It is gas checked with lyman or hornady checks, it is a softer bullet (not lino). The jacketed groups on a dead day with the 34 gr bullets are typically .75 and I can't get them any smaller to date. Its a pistol with a couple ounce trigger and not very heavy, floppy on the bench, etc. Cheap scope doesn't help either. I can hold better with other TCs but .375 is about my limit at 100 on a perfect day no matter what frame, barrel, cartridge, etc I can muster. With that said, I DONT expect cast to shoot like jacketed on any platform except 445 SM and 357Max. Both seem to perform best with cast rather than jacketed. My 6mm, nope. Any rifle I own to date, always shoots better with jacketed than cast. Using the baselines given by jacketed and my experiences with cast in same rifles, I only expect my best cast performance to be 2x a jacketed bullet group. OR LARGER.

I dont assume every Savage bolt gun of recent production to shoot amazing, but I expect better groups from them than your experiencing. A CF 22 on a Savage platform I expect .5 inch groups to be the norm. Cast performance I expect would then be 2x that, 1 inch. Your at a whopping 4x. And your jacketed bullet groups are 3-4x what I see as typical of MANY CF 22 Savages (and Stevens 200's for that matter).

The jacketed data you have provided is on target with my experiences and your cast bullet groups of 2 inches. The cast groups are indeed 2X your jacketed results.

Not a rule or law or scientific anything, just simply what I have observed in 10 years of Savage ONLY shooting (I despise Remingtons). All that I have typed likely has NO bearing on anything in life. But it sure matches your experiences to date in some segments and draws a high contrast to some of your others.

Not a finger point at you, Im pointing at the rifles. Something isn't right (and that something might be me)

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 03 July 2014

Agree. I have a 110FP in .223 (yes it IS the long action - an EARLY one for .223). Regular trigger. It just shoots well - great for prairie dogs out to about 450.

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John Alexander posted this 03 July 2014

Loren Barber wrote: Joe,  I recently read three articles posted in the site, CastPics regarding shooting cast bullets in a 0.223.  I won't try to summarize the articles, but it seemed that 40 grain bullets worked best for MOA at 100 yds.Loren Loren,    Thanks for mentioning these articles. I have just read them. I would urge readers to take much of what the author has written with multiple grains of salt until their own testing indicates there is something to them.   He does have one thing right.  With 14 and 16 inch twists you can only shoot short bullets. A blunt 55 grain is about tops for the common 14 inch and a blunt 45 grain is all the length that will usually stabilize in the 16 inch.    However, there is no longer any excuse for limiting yourself to the slow twists in the 223.  9, 8 and even 7 inch twists are commonly available.  A 9 inch twist will stabilize a .90” long cast bullet. This could be a very pointed 80 grain bullet or an even heavier blunt bullet.   Short cast bullets are very difficult to shoot accurately.  There is a reason why 30 caliber shooters who show up to shoot in front of witnesses at matches don't bring 72 grain bullets (30 bullet with sectional density equivalent to the 225438 he recommends,) Ken points out that the 22 LR is an exception but we won't know how to do that with cast until Ken figures out how.   The load tables in the articles quote accuracy levels that are fantastic but there is no mention of number of shots per group or if the fliers he complains about are disregarded so his claims are hard to evaluate.  If his loads will consistently shoot five shot groups at the quoted levels he could easily mop up in either production or hunting rifle class any year at the CBA nationals.  It would be great if he came and did just that.     The most discouraging thing about the articles is that the author believes in zombies.  He recycles all the old discredited zombie old wives' tales that won't die about 22 cast bullets -- must sort by weight to .1 grain, must cull with 3X glass, very hard to cast, fragile and easily damaged, lots of fliers, etc. etc.   John

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PETE posted this 03 July 2014

John,

Was thinking of reading the articles you mention but after your comments I think I won't bother.

Surprised no one was interested enuf to even ask for any particulars on how I got the groups I mentioned above. So I'll just mention them anyway,

About the only things I've found to be true, most of the time, is the faster you push a cast bullet or the smaller the diam. is the harder you have to cast them. Breech seating is another story. Never found them hard to cast and I always figured that considering the wgt. weighing them down to a .1 gr. was a waste of time.If they were visually good they' d probably weigh within that range anyway.

The .22 bullets in groups I mentioned above were cast out of lino and the MV's ranged from 1874 fps to 2100.9. This range seemed to work the best. Going above or below groups opened up.

Pete

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 July 2014

hey pete; re: breech seat ... so if cast bullets are fully supported at ignition, they don't need to be really hard ... is that because there is no harsh transition thru an oversize throat ?

gives me hope my super rook will put them all in the same hole ... i can cut the neck at groove diameter; the same size as the bullet, because the brass doesn't need to expand. the bullet will be fully supported .. breech seated .. when the block is locked. ( bolt or )

i will cut the chamber neck with a throater reamer. what could go wrong ? comments welcome.

i doubt they would let me shoot this thing in competition .

( g )

ken

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.22-10-45 posted this 03 July 2014

My Hornet & .222Rem. don't like really hard bullets. I use a diluted alloy of Steriotype metal & pure lead..slightly harder than Lyman #2 alloy. I tried straight Steriotype & got patterns no matter the powder charge. I have tried alloys down to 1-10 tin-lead & even 20-1 tin lead..adjusting powder charge acordingly..with no leading.

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John Alexander posted this 03 July 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: hey pete; re: breech seat ... so if cast bullets are fully supported at ignition, they don't need to be really hard ... is that because there is no harsh transition thru an oversize throat ?

gives me hope my super rook will put them all in the same hole ... i can cut the neck at groove diameter; the same size as the bullet, because the brass doesn't need to expand. the bullet will be fully supported .. breech seated .. when the block is locked. ( bolt or )

i will cut the chamber neck with a throater reamer. what could go wrong ? comments welcome.

i doubt they would let me shoot this thing in competition .

( g )

ken I think you are probably right about why breech seaters can use soft alloys although with the right bullet, matched throat, and a tight necked chamber (like many of our heavy and unrestricted shooters try) should be similar as far as not letting the bullet flop around unsupported.  The neck would only be expanding .001 or maybe even less as the bullet was pushed out.  However, they mostly all use linotype. Why go with a soft bullet for that kind of rig.  My experience with factory rifles matches .22-10-45's m-- moderate hardness always seems to do better than hard. I can't see any reason why your super rook couldn't meet the requirements for CBA heavy or UNR.  If you put a pistol grip on it instead of a buttstock it should be Ok for unrestricted pistol class even if it has a 30” barrel and weighs 40 pounds.  Yes we sometime lose our heads during a vote. John

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Loren Barber posted this 04 July 2014

Pete,I would suggest reading the three articles.  I don't shoot 22's but I like to glean every bit of knowledge about casting and shooting them as I can.  I shoot the 30BR mostly, but am going to try BP in my 45-70 as a new adventure at the other end of the spectrum.  22's, 24's and 25's seem to exhibit many similarities in attention to detail.

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.22-10-45 posted this 04 July 2014

Ken, just curious..what is your super rook? I have been working with a W. Jeffery .255 side lever rook rifle. The .255 Jeffery case is nothing more exotic than the .25-20 WCF. shortened to 1.180"..I believe Mr. Jeffery copied this one. Anyway, I started out with light Trail Boss loads under the little Lyman 252435 (.25 ACP), cast fairly soft. Shooting around 6” high at 50yds. I think velocity too low..loading up some H4227 for next time out. This little gun has factory installed Lyman tang, as well as the 3 leaf folding wide V open irons.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 July 2014

22-10-45:: my super rook is just an idea at present; it drives me nuts observing a decent 22 lr gun shoot 1 moa with plinker ammo, and 1/2 moa with any of the top match ammo. all this with real soft lead alloy and a short not totally supported bullet. all this while my plinking deer rifles, even varmint rifles shoot cast mostly in the 2 moa on a good day. if i just grab a mold and a pinch of unique, i will probably see 3 or 4 moa ... good enough for bean cans at 50 yards, but threads here are ruining my easy-going hobby shooting days .. ( g ) . i am feeling the need to shoot flies ... ok, horse flies ... at 50 yards. ( i can hit 9 out of 10 house flies at 50 yards with those dang 22 rimfires. ) wonder why ...

so my plan is to emulate the rimfire chamber, at least at the neck ... using a heeled bullet with shortest possible heel ... probably in 6mm, as i have lots of match barrels y chamber tooling for that. i am just getting my hobby lathe wired back up, then i have 3 or 4 customer rifles to do, then i get to play ... the plan is coming together ... but so far it is still shooting wonderfully only in my mind ( g ) .

comments welcome. ken

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PETE posted this 04 July 2014

Ken, I always figured that the reason for breech seating done by the old timers was due to the inaccuracy of the chamber barrel alignment. From what I have read this left a lot to be desired. Seating the bullet almost completely into the rifling obviated this. You have a good point tho. But remember we don' t completely seat the bullet into the rifling. Each rifle is a law unto itself but a place to start is engaging half the base band free of the rifling. Why breechseating seems to require softer bullets is a mystery to me. I have rifles that like any,thing from 1-40 to 1-10 tin lead. A good case in point is a .28/30 I have. After trying ever,y concoction I could think of I read the original write-ups Stevens wrote on this. They suggested 1-32. That was the alloy! My .32/40 shoots best with a 1-15 alloy. I've shot a coupla 250's with it. As for hope on your rifle....... Afraid I can't help much there. I've got some rifles that are just plain no good, or I'm not smart enuf to figure them out. Your on your own. Loren, After John's comments on those articles I figure they are a waste of time. If the author is passing around a bunch of “old wives tales” I don't need to clutter up with that kind of stuff. I spent to many years disproving many of them. Pete

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John Alexander posted this 04 July 2014

Loren Barber wrote: Pete,I would suggest reading the three articles.  I don't shoot 22's but I like to glean every bit of knowledge about casting and shooting them as I can.  I shoot the 30BR mostly, but am going to try BP in my 45-70 as a new adventure at the other end of the spectrum.  22's, 24's and 25's seem to exhibit many similarities in attention to detail. Pete, I agree with Loren. By all means read the articles.  We should read everything we can get his hands on about things of interest ”€œ but we shouldn't necessarily believe it all. My remarks were just to urge a bit of critical thinking of what is presented whether it is on the internet or in print. I suppose that not cluttering up your mind with things that have been disproven is a good reason for saving your time though.   I found the parts on hollow pointing bullets and their performance on varmints and oranges very interesting.   Mr. Goins presents about 100 loads for the 223 and several different gas check bullets for which he gives the accuracy. Of these 20% shot under 1inch at 100 yards and only about 10 percent were over 1.5 inches.  If these numbers are for average 5 shot, or even 3 shot, groups his results are fantastic.  Especially for a factory chamber.   John

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PETE posted this 04 July 2014

John & Loren, OK. I'll bite. Give an address pointing to these famous articles so I don't have to spend half the day looking for them. I probably missed something in going over the messages in this thread but didn't see anything pointing to them. Pete

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John Alexander posted this 04 July 2014

Pete, Google CastPics. Hit “articles” then “cast loads by caliber." John

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PETE posted this 05 July 2014

OK John. Read them. No comment.

Pete

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joeb33050 posted this 05 July 2014

“What I'd like is for some of you successful .22 cf shooters to shoot a set of five 5 shot 100 yard groups, and tell me/us about the rifle and load and ??”   So, a week has gone by, and no response to this. Plenty of opinions, no numbers. Is it the targets? I have targets if you need one. Just let me know, I'll mail you a target.

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John Alexander posted this 05 July 2014

<user=3>joeb33050 wrote: “What I'd like is for some of you successful .22 cf shooters to shoot a set of five 5 shot 100 yard groups, and tell me/us about the rifle and load and ??”   So, a week has gone by, and no response to this. Plenty of opinions, no numbers. Is it the targets? I have targets if you need one. Just let me know, I'll mail you a target. The thread started out about 22 CB accuracy and now seems to be talking about rifle accuracy with JBs. 

 I can offer some data about Savage rifles and JB accuracy.  Over the last 14 years I have bought four new Savage M-12 varmint rifles in 223.  I think they called the first three BVSS and the last one Low Profile but all had laminated stocks and weighed about the same.  I used all four in CBA competition in production class without alteration (except the first two had 7 pound triggers which I lightened to 2.)   For each rifle before trying CBs I loaded up some match quality 50 -53 grain bullet (mostly Sierra 53 Match Kings) ahead of arbitrary charges and shot a string of groups to check out JB accuracy.  All three strings of groups were shot in decent wind conditions on my home 100 yard range.  These were the first shots fired from each rifle with no break in with the following results.   Rifle #1.   6-five shot groups with 22grains of H322 -- average = .754"   Rifle #2.   7- five shot groups with 24grains of 2230 -- average =  .751    Rifle #3.  Can't find notebook but if I remember the average was about same as first two."   Rifle #4.  9- five shot groups with 25 grains of Varget -- average = .706.   None of these were fired under difficult wind conditions because I picked the day to keep that variable out of the data as much as possible.  With a tough switching wind these could have easily been over 1MOA. Also each of these strings of groups had groups under .5” if I had quoted accuracy as some do these all would have been .5” rifles.   A Note to encourage humility while assessing bore quality with a bore scope.  I borescoped each of these rifles before firing and took careful notes.   Rifle #1 -- The roughest bore I had ever seen with big ugly reamer marks from one end to the othere.   Rifle #2 -- Noticeably smoother than #1 but still one much rougher than the average I have seen.   For what it's worth I remember #3 as being smoother than #2.   Rifle #4 -- Very smooth bore with only light reamer marks. But not nearly as smooth as a hammer forged Remington I own that shoots groups two to three times as big as the above.    Additionally the throat in the first three all look pretty good but the throat in #4 is crooked more than I would have thought possible.  Some of the lands start as much as two land widths ahead of lands on the other side of the throat. I sent it back to Savage but they thought it was good enough and I have to admit that it shoots JBs well enough for a good varmint rifle.  Additional surprising deficiencies in bore uniformity were detected by slugging with soft lead slugs but obviously didn't prevent accuracy at the .75MOA level. John          

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tturner53 posted this 05 July 2014

All this little bore talk has motivated me to get off my @$$ and enter some postal matches. Starting with the 'Little Bore' match due in next month. I'll be shooting my Rem 700 SPS .223 with a 26” barrel. The longer barrel is closer to the target. This stock factory 700 is the most accurate rifle I've owned and with me running it it's about a .75” gun with select factory or jacketed handloads appropriate for it's 12” twist. For some reason it dimples the primers no matter what the load is, pipsqueak to max. Oversize firing pin hole? Real Americans shoot Remingtons.

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joeb33050 posted this 05 July 2014

Targets, anyone? Cast .22 bullets, cf, 100 yards 5 groups, 5 shots. Anyone?

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John Alexander posted this 06 July 2014

Well, its only four groups but I sent off a group postal match shot July 1. Tikka T3 lite 223, custom 85 grain bullet of wheelweight alloy, LBT Blue in space in front of gas check only, 5 grains of TiteGroup, WSR primer, 1,400fps.  Average of the four groups 1.05" Should have more with a different bullet in a few days. John

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joeb33050 posted this 06 July 2014

Thanks, John

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Paul Pollard posted this 06 July 2014

I hate record keeping. Somehow records seems to get in the way of a good story, and reveal that I don't shoot as well as I think I do.

The rifle is a .222 Rem, 40XB. 1:14 twist. Molds were Eagan MX2-22, MX3-22, RCBS 22-055SP, LBT 225-55SP. Alloys were monotype, linotype and mixtures of those. Powder: 3031, 4064, 4198, N133, 4227. Primers mostly CCI 450 and WSR. Velocity: 1700-2700 fps. Lube: LBT Blue, Voodoo Red.

There were 279, 5-shot groups. Average group size: 1.626. Median group size: 1.519. Sixty-five groups were less than one inch. Since the median is 1.519, about 140 groups were less than 1.5."

No cherry-picking of groups. I don't know what jacketed bullets shoot like because I don't shoot any of those and don't care what they shoot like.

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joeb33050 posted this 07 July 2014

Paul; Thank you, that gives me an idea of how groups go. Still looking for other folks to chime in.joe b.

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John Alexander posted this 07 July 2014

Paul, I struggled to get CB accuracy out of a couple of very accurate 222rifles with 14” twist for about twenty years.  The averages for 5 shot groups of my better loads were just like yours -- about 1.5". I have never seen documented or match results for five shot averages that were any better for a 22 with a 14” twist; and other good shooters with 40X 222s have tried.  That shouldn't be a surprise I don't know of any any better results for 100 grain or lighter 30 caliber bullets either. That may be about the limit for such extremely stubby CBs in any caliber.  Stubby JBs shoot fine but that is another matter. John   

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John Alexander posted this 18 July 2014

A couple of weeks ago I promised to report on more shooting with the NOE 22570 RN bullet in a few days.  The few days turned into 17 but this afternoon I made it to the range.

In the meantime I have done additional shooting in my tunnel and think I have found that I can get better accuracy than the 1.24MOA I reported earlier by increasing the load to 5.3 grains of TiteGroup (MV = 1560fps).  I also beagled the mold with two layers of aluminum foil to increase the nose diameter about .0005” perpendicular to the mold seam.

Before shooting at 100 yards the last four 5 shot groups fired in the tunnel with identical loads varied from .80 to 1.31MOA with an average of .98MOA.  I shot 5-5 shot groups at 100 yards.  They varied from . 43 to 1.36MOA for an average of 1.01MOA.  The bullets were of wheelweight alloy and  were mine run from all three cavities with lube only in the gap ahead of the gas check. The rifle was an unaltered Tikka T3 Lite. John

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tturner53 posted this 19 July 2014

I have found my old notes stating '10 shots-1/2"-50 yds' This in a .22 Hornet firing the famous Lee “Bator” bullet over Lil Gun powder. We shall see how this holds up in a last minute run at the Little Bore postal match. Theoretically that's 1 MOA, right? TBC

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John Alexander posted this 19 July 2014

What make of Hornet is that?  I have heard that Hornets from Europe have a better throat.  Don't know if true. John

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 July 2014

I've shot numerous 22 Hornets over the years, all US made; Savage 23s, 340(?), M40 & 219s, Ruger #1, #3s and Ruger bolt guns, Contender 10 and 21” barrels, a M54 and a couple others. The problem is not the throats but in the generous sized necks. Additionally the case necks are very thin and when pulled over the expander ball in regular sizing dies, whether FL, partial or NSing, many times the case necks stretch on one side and are bowed (basically crooked). The 16” twist of older 22 Hornets couple with the very shallow lands and grooves also exasperate the problem.

I found that using a cast bullet with a long bearing surface is a key to accuracy. Many want to use a bullet that is too heavy/long for best accuracy in the 16” twist also. The 225438 proved the best bullet in almost all of those 16” twist Hornets. The 225462 proved the best bullet in 14” and faster twist barrels.

The bullets should be cast of a god alloy such as Lyman #2 or COWWs + 2% tin. They should be WQ'd or HT'd to 24+ BHN. I never got as good accuracy with linotype. They should be sized to “as cast” diameter. My Lyman moulds for those bullets drop them at .227 with either alloy. I use a .228 H&I die to seat, crimp the GCs and lube them. I use Hornady crimp on GCs and a quality NRA 50/50 lube.

I use a Redding Bushing die to NS the case giving .002 neck tension. I NS the cases only to the seating depth of the bullet. That leaves the rest of the neck concentric with the fire formed case and keeps the bullet concentric with the bore. A Lee collet die works well for this also, especially if a collar is made to slip over the case when sizing so the neck is sized only to the seating depth. Sizing as such is the key to best accuracy with the Hornet.

Using a standard FL die backed out will not work if the expander ball is used. Best to take it off and let the M-die expand the neck. That way the case neck can be sized only to seating depth. The bushing and collet dies still work better though.

I use SP primers, usually WSPs. I use Bullseye powder for .22LR performance, Unique for .22 WRF performance and SR4759 or H4227 for “original” 22 Hornet performance (2400+ fps). If the rifle is capable of moa accuracy I find with careful visual inspection to sort out any visual defect and then weight sorting can produce equal accuracy. A good visual sorting w/o weight sorting can produce accuracy of under 2 moa out of a 1 moa rifle. My M40 is close to 1/2 moa capable and 1 moa with a selected 225462 is not hard to achieve. Just have to work at it and pay attention to details is all.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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tturner53 posted this 19 July 2014

My most accurate Hornet is a Savage M40 single shot. I believe they've been discontinued but replaced by the M25 which is a repeater and also available in .223. My loading techniques are fairly simple and based around Lee's collet dies. My M40 has a .225 throat and .223 grooves so I go with .225. My other Hornet is an H&R with 9” twist. In a fit of “can't leave well enough alone” I rechambered it to 'K Hornet'. My thinking was with the faster twist I could really launch heavier cast bullets. So far it has produced reliable good hunting accuracy and it's almost lighter to carry about than a Ruger 10/22. I've meant to write a TFS article for years and this wildcat economy woodswalker's companion should be a good topical candidate. Any interest? Verstility is a biggie in my book and the little K Hornet really is versatile. With the increased powder space, miniature 'Weatherby-esque' shoulder and fast twist a guy could shoot 69 gr. SMKs or military green tip 62s or turn it into a reloadable .22 Short with cbs. Anyway, I need to get busy and see if 1 MOA is in the cards for this match.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 July 2014

trivia r us : somebody asked me, such an expurt on almost everything, why i shoot only 4 moa ledd groups ; hey, i compete only against myself ( a poor loser at that ) ... and i don't use gas checks ... not for 20 years. on lucky days i get inward fliers and a few 2.5 moa groups.

and yes, gas checks shoot better; i just don't think they are natural.


oh, the real reason for this post; i might have some old gas checks in 308; pm me if , i have been uncovering amazing things cleaning out my shop. i gotta make a list...

ken

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John Alexander posted this 20 July 2014

tturner53, Do I understand correctly that the Savage M-25 has a 9 inch twist in the Hornet?  If so I may have to have one.  .

IMHO you did good to rechamber to K Hornet.  The capacity increase isn't much but if you use the collet die it gives you a way to have no slack in the headspace instead of being at the mercy of the tolerences allowed by the rifle and die makers.  With no shoulder on the original hornet -- not so much.

If it has the fast twist you might want to try some of the NOE 70 grain round nose.  They shot well with no tinkering in my rifle and with a little tinkering they shot even better.  I would be glad to send you some to try just say the word.

Ken, Have you tried wads behind those plain based bullets or are wads unnatural too.  Maybe just wads from natural natural materials.  Cardboard from granola boxes maybe?  Merrill Martin claimed that wads helped with PBs.  There seems to be ways to avoid the dreaded chamber ringing if the wad is tight against the bullet base.

John

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gnoahhh posted this 20 July 2014

I too get dime-sized groups with the Bator bullet, at 50 yards. 100yards sees quarter sized groups. 4gr. Unique or 6gr. 2400- doesn't seem to matter which. My rifle is a German pre-war 5.6x35R, single shot break-open, 26” octagon barrel, DST's. The barrel dimensions are kind of weird: throat a heavy .225- call it .2255, groove diameter starts at .224 and tapers to .222 at the muzzle, 1-9” twist.

I load with standard RCBS Hornet dies with an expander plug turned by myself .001” bigger than the standard one, bullets cast of WWs, sized .225 (per Frank Marshall's old advise to size to .0005 under throat diameter), lubed with Javelina, and sealed with a kiss!

The Bator works better for me than the 225438, but admittedly not by much.

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tturner53 posted this 20 July 2014

My H&R rechambered K Hornet has a 9” twist. My Savage M40 single shot is 12". I don't know what they're doing with the newer M25 but will check it out. The M40 came with a very nice laminated wood stock that is bench friendly but still portable enough. It has a medium heavy 24” barrel that has a beautiful old fashioned blue job, high polish. I've seen some guys shooting M25s at my club that are tack drivers. -I've also had better results with the Bator than the old 225438. I may have a chance of using the Bator on some varmints soon. - John, I'd like to try those 70s, I'll pm you. Thanks

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John Alexander posted this 20 July 2014

I should have a batch on the way in a few days.  I am pretty sure that your 1 in 12” twist won't stabilize them but the 9” will. John

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Larry Gibson posted this 23 July 2014

Might want to recheck that M40s twist, mine is a 14” twist (measured several times).

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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tturner53 posted this 25 July 2014

I'll double check it. I got the bullets John made for me today. Look good. I'll try them in my 9” twist K Hornet. Wouldn't it be funny if I beat him in the “Little Bore” match using bullets he made?! But for now I'm going huntin' over on the coast. Cool off a bit.

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2014

Well it sure is a 14” twist! Dang. It does shoot the light stuff real good though.

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max503 posted this 24 December 2019

I've been struggling with cast bullets in my Tikka 223.  I've tried a Lyman 47 grain bullet - which shoots just fine out of my Hornet - but it shoots shotgun patterns out of the Tikka.

I recently tried the Lee 55 grain bullet.  It "patterns" with any fast burning powder - Unique, Red Dot, 700X.  With SR4759 I got the groups down to 4" @ 100 yards.  So that's got me thinking of trying some other slower powders.

I saw a load of 19 grains of H335 with a 55 grain bullet.  That's reduced several grains from the jacketed load. 

Is it safe to reduce H335?

Is it safe to reduce IMR 3031?

Is it safe to reduce IMR 4064?

 edit  I'm going to have to true-up the bases of those bullets somehow.  Any suggestions?  

This gun has got me stuck in Cast Bullet Purgatory.  My 22 Hornet never did this to me.  I wonder what gives?

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John Alexander posted this 24 December 2019

It would be easier to help if you told us what loads you have been using, what alloys, how the bullets fit at the length you are trying, etc.

Your interest in a H335 load that is 80% of a full charge jacketed load may be a clue to your troubles.  What velocities are you trying to get? Shooting CBs at high speed with good accuracy is difficult and with short stumpy bullets even more difficult.  Your 55 grain Lee bullet has the same sectional density as a 100 grain 30 caliber bullets and I have never heard of anybody doing any decent shooting at high speed with that weight of 30 caliber cast bullet either.  Do yourself a favor and try to get good accuracy at under 1,800 fps first.

 Why do you think the bullet bases need to be trued?  Unless they have some huge defect, quit worrying about them. They will shoot better that the 4" you are now getting.

I found it dead easy to get strings of 5-shot groups that averaged under 1.5 moa with the same Lee bullet and same Tikka you are using. The bullets were wrinkled and no load development or other fussing around was involved.  (see Sept./Oct. 2019 Fouling Shot p.26). 

Don't get discouraged, that combination will shoot.

John

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max503 posted this 25 December 2019

To answer your questions:

I've tried 6.0 grains of both Red Dot and 700X.  I've also tried a light loading of Unique.  I tried Blue Dot.  I'm aiming for 1700fps.  I've tried crushing the bullet into the lands as well as loading the bullet more deeply into the case in order to give it more support.  I've tried full-length and partial sizing.  I bought an NOE expander button to help with inside neck sizing.  I've used both a lubrisizer with Felix Lube and a Lee push die with LLA.  (LLA works best.) I size to .225 with both.  I've tried both linotype and some alloy that came from WW and I believe it's used to make 22lr ammo but I'm not sure.  All of the above efforts have given me peach basket size groups.  Switching to 4759 brought groups down to grapefruit size.  When I tried to weight-sort a batch of bullets I noticed they wobbled on the sprue cutoff scar.  I'm thinking maybe I should remove the cut-off plate and lightly sand/flatten the bottom surface so that it guillotines the sprue off more better.  I trimmed my cases.  With jacket bullets this gun will take a beer can off a fence post at 300 yards.

For some reason I cannot find a copy of the Fouling Shot you mentioned on either my phone or my laptop.

I am frustrated.  Woe is me.  Merry Christmas.

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max503 posted this 25 December 2019

And no, I haven't slugged my bore.  I don't like the idea of pounding anything down a barrel.  Even if it is a coated cleaning rod.  I thought about honing out my push die to .226.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 December 2019

max503 ... remember that the first ( and only repeatable ) rule for our bubble gum ( thanks ric ) castings are that they be snug in the THROAT ... before firing.  heck, even Onondaga Gary agreed with this ... 

you size to 225 ... how about 226? ... 227 ? ...   

**************

back when i was serious, i occasionally got a 1 inch group ...  and the next day with nearly the same loads ( i thought ) i get an 8 inch group ...  my perfectly swaged ( & flat bases ! ) but undersized bullets still shot 8 inch groups ... i tried some commercially swaged absolutely gorgeous 22 bullets from Italy ... 0.223 ...  8 inch groups.

i found that very ugly but snug bullets would almost always shoot 3 inches or under.  dang rule 1 ....  btw, i have been searching for Rule2 for 50 years ...

*************

...other than my ouija board, most of my breakthrough ideas come about 2 in the morning ...  i bet if you keep the Tikka faith, a good load will seek you out before long  ... besides ... we learn more from our rougher journeys ... who knows ? ... just maybe the solution to your puzzle will lead to that long-sought Rule2 !! ...

ken

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John Alexander posted this 25 December 2019

No wonder you are frustrated, you have a real puzzle.

Are the bullet holes in those peach basket groups all round or almost round?  Any full bullet profile holes?

Some suggestions:

I assume you are using gas checks. If not it would be interesting to try them and see if that helps.

Make sure that bore is free of any leading before each range session.  That is one of the few things I can think of that would cause complete loss of accuracy.  Lead Out cloth is great, medium steel wool around a worn out brush will do the job and not hurt anything.

Either rate of twist that Tikka produces will stabilize the bullets you are using.

 

Try some very soft alloy, range scrap, or 20 or 25:1 from a dealer. Should mark easily and deeply with a thumb nail.  BHN >10. 

Make a dummy round. Use a fired case and use something gummy to stick a bullet in the neck with the bullet long.  Chamber and extract and measure length of round with bullet pushed  back by contact with lands.

Make another dummy round this time with a sized case with round .020" longer than the first dummy round, chamber and extract. Hopefully, there will be land marks on the nose of the Lee bullet and also contact marks on the front of the front band.  If not make a longer dummy round and try again.

If clear marks on nose but can't get anything on front band, lapping out the Lee push through die to .226 may be worthwhile. .225 worked for both my Tikkas, when new, but who knows.

Pull the bullet from the dummy round and measure diameter to be sure that the sized case is not sizing down the bullet or mutilating it in other ways. If the bullet is being changed during seating, your expander button from NOE may not be big enough.

I used to worry about bumps on bullet bottoms but never could see that they affected groups.  I now cut sprues with a gloved hand while pressing down so no bumps.  Improving the sprue cutter as you suggest can't hurt anything if done carefully on a very flat surface but hand cutting is easy especially with soft alloys.

If you PM me your email address I will send you a copy of my article on the Lee bullet.  Don't know that it will solve your problem but there might be something useful there.

Let me know if any of this helps. Merry Christmas.

John

 

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max503 posted this 26 December 2019

Yes I use gas checks.  Haven't seen any signs of instability.  My NOE expander is .222 so it could be too tight.  I should have got a 224.

Those bullet drop consistently at .227.  Maybe I could try some unsized.  I will also try some range scrap.  I can get that.

Anyway, I will keep trying.  Several people on the internet use 19-20 grains of H335.  I'm going to try that and some IMR 4227.  

I think if I cut the sprues with a gloved hand while pressing down on the mold that might help the bases.  I was planning on this being my primary cast bullet rifle.  If I can't get it to shoot I may have to buy me a 30 caliber to replace the 30-06 I sold a while back.

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OU812 posted this 26 December 2019

Reloader 7 and H4198 works good at faster velocities. Tite Group works very well at lower velocities under 1600fps.

Ball powders will work, but will foul barrel much quicker if Fouling is not kept soft, much like black powder when shooting cast.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 December 2019

.. 22 expander ... on my 222 rem. i used a 0.225 expander for 225 castings.  the brass springs smaller after the expander exits, and the brass is stronger than your casting.

also, might try a trick that johna mentioned just a while back .. take/test 3 of your brass and taper ream the inside necks a tad ... so they just barely hold the casting near the mouth.  plumber's reamer from ace hardware will work to try.

i wouldn't be surprised if your 0.222 expander is giving you 0.221 bullets after seating.  

we shall overcome: mother nature is no match for wishful thinking ! ...

ken

 

 

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John Alexander posted this 26 December 2019

Ken is right on. A .222" expander is probably too small.  A pulled bullet from the dummy round made with the sized case will tell.

John

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JeffinNZ posted this 26 December 2019

I expand to .001 less than bullet diameter.  I made a stepped M type expander die with .222/.224/.226 inch steps.  I used the .222/.224 for jacketed and run it deeper to use 0.224/.226 for cast.  The larger diameter is run into the case mouth just enough to create an easy seat for starting the bullet. 

Never have experienced any problems getting .22 cal cast to shoot.  Have shot them in two Hornets and a .223 Rem with great success.  Velocity up to 2400fps and accuracy regularly 1.5 MOA and less.  The current Zastava Hornet LOVES the NOE 37gr copy of the 225107 and will cloverleaf them at 50m over 8gr Lil Gun for 2250fps.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Squid Boy posted this 27 December 2019

Pardon me for being a little late to this party but reading corerf's post got me thinking. I would really like to see a chronograph readout of that 4200 fps load. My Quick Load says no, unless you have more than 26" of barrel and don't mind pressures above 70,000 psi with compressed loads of Varget. Just wondering. Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

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max503 posted this 28 December 2019

I expand to .001 less than bullet diameter.  I made a stepped M type expander die with .222/.224/.226 inch steps.  I used the .222/.224 for jacketed and run it deeper to use 0.224/.226 for cast.  The larger diameter is run into the case mouth just enough to create an easy seat for starting the bullet. 

Never have experienced any problems getting .22 cal cast to shoot.  Have shot them in two Hornets and a .223 Rem with great success.  Velocity up to 2400fps and accuracy regularly 1.5 MOA and less.  The current Zastava Hornet LOVES the NOE 37gr copy of the 225107 and will cloverleaf them at 50m over 8gr Lil Gun for 2250fps.

I was just thinking that.  I made one for 30-06 and it worked real good.  The largest one NOE sells is .224.  Even that might be too tight.

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John Alexander posted this 28 December 2019

Have you seated a bullet into a sized case and extracted to see if that is part of the problem?

Just curious.

John

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max503 posted this 03 January 2020

I tried some unsized 55 grain Lee bullets at 50 yards.  No gas check.  Light coat of LLA.  Out of eight shots with 700X, 4 made one big hole. 

So there's hope.  This project will continue...

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 January 2020

cool

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max503 posted this 06 January 2020

Looked again.  That was actually 5 in one big hole.coolapplause

Thanks for the article John.

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