need advice on this lead

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  • Last Post 27 January 2015
birddseedd posted this 12 September 2014

I have been using range lead. I'm not sure what is in the lead, most of it would be from jacketed manufactured ammo. of course I am getting leadding. .356 9mm 124 gn tumble lube. From what iv been told, I should be fine with 20 to 1. begrudgingly i spent some $$$ on pewter. but im still left with a few questions. What exactly is in the metal? Hard to know since its just random range lead. can i count on any tin in it? if so i could use less of the pewter. The pewter itself shoudl be a clean 97 tin 3 antimony. although, i caint imagine the antimony will help much when mixed in a 10 lb pot. thanks mike

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 September 2014

backstop lead can vary quite a bit, depending of course on what is shot into it. commercial pistol bullets are usually ” hardball ” , which is 92-6 antimony-2 tin . 22 rimfire are about 99 -1 tin. jacketed lead is about 1 tin.

worst case you might have 1 tin, which in a tight to chamber or cylinder throat will shoot leading free to about 800 fps.

if your bullets are not almost a drag fit in your throat, USUALLY you will get varying degrees of leading, with any alloy mix, from hot gas blowing lead vapor ahead of the bullet.

it took me ten years to figure that tight throat bullets are necessary .. then i found out that many other good shooters already knew that .. including a hundred years ago ... thru the CBA here finally it has become an un-secret, in fact RULE ONE ... red bullets that are tight in the throat always outshoot blue or green bullets that are floppy in the throat.


oh yeah ... what you asked about ... i almost forgot ( g ) .

assuming your pewter is certified 99 per cent tin ...

what is your goal ? if just paper ... or bean can ... punching, you can get good bullets with 2 to 3 per cent tin ( 33 to 1 scrap to pewter ) .. additional tin is pretty much wasted. max pressure should be about 20,000 psi.

if you want higher pressure loads, you will need to make your scrap harder with antimony , or find some hardball and mix in the scrap. rotometals sells hardball for about $3 per lb, shipping free at 40 lbs or so.

just to find out what your scrap alloy is good to ... first melt it all together, so you have the same mix ... then start working up ( with a tight throat bullet, of course ) ... from 700 fps until it leads a lot ...


also let us know what gun ( s ) you are casting for, and your goals for your metal

hoping the above rambling helps,

ken

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onondaga posted this 12 September 2014

Range lead from jacketed bullets is generally soft Antimonial lead with 98% lead and 2% Antimony. This is very near pure lead in softness and may be used that way in alloy formulas by hobby bullet makers.

I gather soft range lead from my club and mix it 1:1 with Linotype scrap or certified Linotype. This yields a BHN15 alloy very similar to certified Hardball alloy from RotoMetals. BHN 15 Hardball is adequate in strength for 9MM loads close to factory pressure loads. Of course, bullet fit is the most important factor to avoid leading as Ken points out.

You can internet search for a service to assay content of any alloy...that is not cheap and involves scientists with electron microscopes and gas chromatography.

I find the Lee Hardness Test kit sufficient to give me reliable hardness readings and I use the Lee alloy hardness to ballistic pressure of the load relationship explained in Modern Reloading Second Edition By Lee as a guideline for alloy hardness/load pressure relationship for non gas checked bullets. This is a basic that is widely accepted and used.

Gary

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Rich/WIS posted this 13 September 2014

I use range lead almost exclusively in my pistols and have not experienced your problems. I am however, using non tumble lubed bullets. My experience with the TL bullets was not the best, some leading and accuracy varied from barely acceptable to side ways hits at 50 feet. I only used them as a stop gap measure when I did not have access to my lubesizer.
The range lead I am getting is predominately jacketed pistol bullets with maybe 5-10% hard cast commercial bullets. Try some commercial cast and see if harder bullets fix the problem. If they do follow Onandaga's advice and buy something to harden them with. If not you have other issues to identify before worrying about your alloy. You didn't say what caliber(s) you are loading for, some can be a lot more demanding of an alloy than others. Also In terms of bullet diameter with an auto you look at bore diameter, with a revolver it is throat and bore diameter.

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birddseedd posted this 15 September 2014

Well. I tried 99 rounds of the powder coat with a good thick coat. just soft range lead. didnt take much cleaning and the bore was good and clean. looking at it close tho, there is kidn of a texture to it, a pitting almost. im not sure if iv done something to the barrel, or if iv just never really looked at it that close. shrugs. My last batch iv been making 20 to 1. sure fills the mold much much better. looks more metalic as well. that should make them run perfect without the cost of adding more pewter.

went to the flea market today. only found one piece of pewter. wasnt even worth buying.

im trading a guy some wheel weight lead for rounds. 750 rounds for 30 lbs (he is also trading 1k of these iv got now for primers). im excited about that. should have 3% antimony, so i can add 3% of my pewter tin and have electrotype. 12 harness. should be able to hit modest velocities for 9mm without powder coating. much faster with powder coating.

I also got some imr 700x. first modern powder. thin and fragile lookin stuff. but iv got actuall loading data !!! thats going to be great. side question on this. min load is 2.9 gns. however on difference from the data is I will have a bit shorter of a cartridge length. I should be able to drop a 10th or so of a gn off that to compensate?

thanks for all the help.

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coffeeguy2 posted this 24 January 2015

It depends...2.9 grains is for a 125-grain bullet seated to 1.125...is there a reason you're seating to a shorter OAL? Just curious.

Standard disclaimer...if you deviate from published loading data, you do so at your own risk... That said, bumping down .1 or .2 grains in this situation probably won't create a mushroom cloud of gun parts, flesh and other debris ;). Anytime I'm working up a load that's “close” to published data (Or anytime, really) I start by loading 5 rounds. Fire one and check the case for signs of excessive pressure, fire another and make sure the action cycles properly, etcetera. Keep going, check your group size; as long as nothing feels funny you're good to go. Enjoy!!!

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birddseedd posted this 25 January 2015

There is no loading data for my bullets. I do cast. Lyman has some info on cast bullets, but the listed powders are limited.

I find if you just start at the bottom of the load for a jacketed bullet, its not really much different. with the tumble lube im limited on my length. With my  hollow points for SD ammo im pretty limeted as well. its a really short bullet, I cant make it very long without modding the mold. but if the gun functions with the shorter bullets. suppose theres no reason to change.

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Dale53 posted this 25 January 2015

I have been casting bullets and reloading for both autos and revolvers for a LONG-G-G time. However, even tho' I reload for many different calibers, until recently I had never loaded for 9mm.

Recently, my brother rekindled his interest in handgun shooting and bought a Kimber Solo for pocket carry then a full size Ruger for range use. We live fairly close together and I have a basement full of reloading gear. I offered to help him get going again. The Solo comes with instructions to only use the heavier bullets for reliability.

He bought a six cavity mold from Lee for a normally lubed 120 gr. truncated cone bullet (at my suggestion). The bullets drop from the mold at .358” diameter. A check of his bore diameter and chamber suggested that .358” should be good. I ran the bullets (WW's+2% tin) through my Star and the .358 die barely sized the bullets. I lubed with Lars' Carnauba Red. I used a Lee four die set including the factory crimp die and taper crimped (modest). The rounds passed the “plunk” test. Reliability is 100% and accuracy is good. No leading...

I suspect that most leading in the 9mm is from bullets that are too small but what do I know?...

When my brother added the full size Ruger, the same loads worked well.

I found reloading the 9mm an interesting task not all that different from other auto cartridges. Knowing chamber size and barrel diameter can help go a long way to properly feeding them for positive results.

FWIW Dale53

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fastfire posted this 25 January 2015

Leading is more often from to small dia. bullet.

Slug your barrel then size your bullets .002 larger.

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coffeeguy2 posted this 25 January 2015

Exactly...Some may view it as extra work, but I see it as fun and it's good knowing I have loads which are sized to my specifications.

A 125-grain bullet is a 125-grain bullet, and I generally do the same with regard to cast vs jacketed loads...If it shoots fine, well, there ya go, and if I can save a bit of powder by bumping down the load then it adds up in the long run.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 26 January 2015

I am not a bullseye shooter ,nor  patient enough to shoot 25yards groups from sandbags with a handgun .

Hitting the big steel plates at the steel challenge tipical distance is enough for me.

The power factor rule is not strongly enforced at my shooting club , but I am complying most of the time .

I use too range scrap lead , mostly from hardball cores and 22 bullets . I use to mix it 50% with clean lead sheets from RX protections . I add , just to make an effective magic potion one 100 grams stick of 50 % tin lead bar solder. This alloy I use for subsonic bullets in revolvers and rifles , from 7mm to 458Lott. Including the 45ACP .

Heavy bullet boar hunting loads in the 45/70 ,444Marlin or 44mag loads shoot well with soft bullets.

The problem are the 9mm x 19 , 9x21 and a little less the 38 superauto (9x23)

All these caliber work at higher pressure than non magnum revolvers and  consequently lead with soft alloys .

Luckily the solution is simple  I just quench them bullets from the mould  in a bucket of water , and  even if  my own  is a low antimony alloy , the bullets get hard enough to be shot in the nines. Of course the trick is to use the lowest pressure you can.

I use the  two  nominal 150 grain bullets   ,at left in the picture at the lowest speed that cycles the pistols ,always around 1050 fps.

The bullets are sized as large as they are accepted in the chamber , that is 357 to 358.

I remember that truncated cones 125 bullets sized 356,using gas checks and linotype alloy leaded and keyholed wildly in a 9x21  Tanfoglio pistol.

The US made 9mm pistols often  use a slow rifling twist ,around 1/18   ( the 38sp revolver twist)while European pistols use the steep !/10 twist. The slow twiast helps to reduce leading. 

You can see  9x21 and 9 luger rounds

giorgio de galleani posted this 26 January 2015

The 9x21 ,a 911 clone from STI  accepts  longer rounds than the 9x19 NATO rounds , and my 38 Superauto Auto Ordnance pistol accepts and shoot all the nines ,of ant lenght as did ,if we believe to the spanish civil war tales the the Astra model 400 in 9mm largo.

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birddseedd posted this 27 January 2015

I think my issue might be my dillon square deal b swagging down the bullet when it goes into the case. iv been wanting to order a new through funnel, custom made, for the dillon. the guy that was going to get it from seems to not be getting emails tho

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onondaga posted this 27 January 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8364>birddseedd

Bullets getting swaged down is an easy thing to check. Mike your bullet on the area that gets seated before seating in a dummy round. Use a Kinetic bullet puller, pull the bullet and mike it again.

If you are damaging the bullets seating them by swaging them down, consider the traditional fixes:

1) a harder alloy 2) more inside case mouth chamfer. 3) more case mouth flare 4) Use a Lyman “M” die before seating bullets. 5) make or buy a custom expander.

It is pretty easy to make a custom expander plug to replace one of the plugs on a Lee Universal Expander case mouth flare die.

Gary

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birddseedd posted this 27 January 2015

Last email to the guy that does custom dies went through. so ill be getting a custom made die this summer. hopefully thatl fix my leading issue.

most of it went away with 20 to 1 tin(pewter) / lead.

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