SCREW LENGTH

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  • Last Post 27 September 2014
joeb33050 posted this 25 September 2014

The Weaver mount for Savage 10, 11, 12... rifles is 48338. Tuesday I got 2 and put them on an M10 and M12.I have now 3 flavors of mount for these rifles; Weaver 2 piece #46M, Weaver 1 piece above, and ?Weaver silver colored 1 piece cut out around the port. At the screw holes these mounts are .105"-.125” thick. Screw lengths are:Silver mount, allen, .200"2 piece slotted, .250"48338 slotted, .320" Savage barrel removal is often problem when the front scope mount screw guggers up the barrel threads-screw too long.Too long screws also gouge flashy lines in the bolt, and keep the bolt from closing completely.All well known to Savage guys.t takes some fiddling to get the correct = not-what-came-with-the-mount screws installed.The shortest screw, ~.200", less the thickest mount ~ .125” leaves ~.075” of thread going in the hole. 6-48 screws, 48 tpi, is ~.021” per revolution. Then .075” = 3+ revolutions/turns in the receiver.Is this enough?How many turns does a screw need? What's the relationship between threads engaged and strength. There's gotta be a minimum. 1 can't be enough. 100 must be too many. ?? 

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onondaga posted this 25 September 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3>joeb33050

Taking the longer than necessary screw and fitting the length is not a daunting job. You can cut and finish the screw end with a disk cutter in a Dremel tool. I have done this on several rifles and shotguns when attaching scope bases. It is reasonable to expect this and if a screw hits the bolt, it should be shortened to flush. The flush fit is maximum engagement for the room available.

Complain to the mount company that supplied the screws. That may get you new screws if you do the complaining respectfully.

Gary

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TomG posted this 25 September 2014

To answer your question as to how many threads must engage to be sufficient, You can do a quick google search on “screw thread engagement” and it will yield a lot of info.

First note that screws and bolts aren't the same as far as thread engagement. Screws engage one half of the joint being developed. Bolts pull two or more pieces together. In critical situations like head bolts on an engine, the bolts are torqued to stretch them slightly with a static force that is less than the dynamic force applied when the cylinder fires. That way the bolt never moves and stress failure is reduced. There is a pretty standard formula for figuring how many threads are needed to engage to make an acceptable joint. It is long and complicated. And things like tensile strength of materials and design loads come into play.

One of the design goals for a screw joint is to have an amount of thread engagement so that the screw shears in tension before the threads strip in the hole. A good general rule if both thread and hole material are of equal strength is the minimum thread engagement length should equal at least one time the full diameter of the screw. So, if you had a .125” dia. screw, the thread engagement should be at least 1/8".

For a blind hole such as mounting a sight onto a barrel, I always figgered that a minimum of 4 threads in a 6-48 screw hole was a barely acceptable. As far as I know the sights I put on using that criteria stayed on. For a screw going into a receiver ring, I'd size the screw length so that the end of the screw is just flush on the bottom side of the hole. That's as good as it can get.

It should be noted that a little dab of grease or wax on the screw will significantly increase the clamping pressure of the screw joint. Here's something I found that explains it quite well.

Torque/Tension Rules of Thumb

Most of the applied torque is NOT used  to general tension in the joint; it is generally consumed follows:
    35% overcomes thread friction
    55% overcomes under head friction
    10% created clamp or tension
Friction plays a significant role in the torque/tension relationship.  Changes, which appear to be small (adding wax to the bolt), can have significant effect. A 10% reduction in friction can create a 25% increase in tension.
Torque to approximately 70% of yield strength (for hard joints).

Myself, I wouldn't complain about the length of the supplied screws. As long as they are long enough to cover the application it should be the installers responsibility to size them for length for whatever hole they go into. One can't realistically expect them to have just the right length for your particular application. That's asking an awful lot from them.

Tom

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 26 September 2014

Standard rule-of-thumb for screw threads is that one is not adding STRENGTH after 3 threads of engagement. Tom has gone in greater depth. It may well be that one would want more than 3 threads of engagement to add to the stiction therefore ensuring the screw would not loosen as easily.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 September 2014

3 threads is the red-neck approved answer for scope mounts. i personally would like a new standard of 8-40 for a 3 or 4 screw mount.

i retap to 100 degree flat head 10-32 for 1 or 2 screw rigs, countersink for the heads. hex socket.

also make blue loc-tite your friend.


yes, fasteners are a whole challenging adventure all by themselves.

all this and you just wanted to shoot the dang gun ( g ) .

ken

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TomG posted this 26 September 2014

correction on my above post.

The static tension on a headbolt should be greater than the dynamic force when the cylinder fires, not less as I stated,   Brain fart   The idea being that the dynamic force never exceeds the initial stretch and the bolt doesn't stretch any further each time the cylider fires.  That reduces the metal fatigue of bolt.

Tom

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joeb33050 posted this 26 September 2014

Thanks to all.If 3-4 threads engaged works, and if I measured ~ correctly; then the .250” long slotted screws supplied with the Weaver 46M mounts have .250"-.125” = .125” below the mount to go in the receiver, and that's ~ 6 threads at .021” per thread. These screws hold the 1 piece mount without touching the barrel or bolt.The .320” long screws touch, on the front ring, both the barrel and the bolt. Since the mount is made for the Savage 10, 11... series rifles, I'd think that the maker would supply screws that held the mount securely and did not interfere with barrel or bolt.The user should NOT have to modify the screws.If I measured and subtracted correctly.Correct?joe b. 

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joeb33050 posted this 26 September 2014

So I went to the reviews at Midway, and find that people have been complaining about this since 2010. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/973274/weaver-1-piece-multi-slot-tactical-weaver-style-base-for-savage-10-through-16-round-rear-axis-short-action-matte Weaver doesn't seem to care. Midway the same. But, it's only $20 plus shipping for a $1.38 cost mount. The invisible hand seems to be in the invisible nose.

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onondaga posted this 26 September 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3>joeb3305http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3>0

You are obviously unhappy with the screws Joe. The ratings do verify what I said: 5 Stars (2) 4 Stars (2) 3 Stars (2) 2 Stars (0) 1 Stars (2) One of the reviewers that gave a 5 Star rating also confirmed an answer and attitude opposite to you that I pointed out to you:

By Garry from Max meadows, VA Works great. Even for shorter scopes. All one has to do is grind or cut off front screws to desired length, apply a drop of bluing, oil and mount base. Simple enough to do. one reviewer that gave a 1 star rating reads somewhat like you:

By http://www.midwayusa.com/product/973274/weaver-1-piece-multi-slot-tactical-weaver-style-base-for-savage-10-through-16-round-rear-axis-short-action-matte#>Culpeper from Roswell NM

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Larry Gibson posted this 26 September 2014

The maximum strength will be when the screw threads (engagement length) is equal to the thread depth in the receiver. Any less engagement is less strength and anything more does not add to the thread engagement strength. Most bases come with “one size” fits all” length screws and they frequently need shortening. No need to bugger up barrel threads in the front receiver or jam up the bolt in the rear receiver ring.

A piece of strap steel thinner than the length needed with a hole D&T'd for the screw and a grinder make it easy and quick to grind the screw to the correct length. A screw driver in the screw slot keeps it from turning while grinding. Backing the ground screw out of the D&T'd hole cleans up the thread end for easy threading into the receiver hole.  I've done thousands of Weaver, Redfield, Leupold, Burris and all other base makers screws this way for 40+ years.    No one used to complain.  They would fix it themselves and then take it to a gunsmith to re-fix correctly or take to the gunsmith first.  It was understood back then that some “fitting” was usually required for a desired fit for ill fitting base screws other than jamming the screws into the barrel threads (only a very small percentage of rifle owners ever change barrels). Now with the internet everyone complains about everything not exactly to their liking.  Just the way it is.  You just seldom heard the complaints pre-internet.....you only heard the solution; shorten the screw. LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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joeb33050 posted this 26 September 2014

And if those whiners had just gotten out the tools and fixed or replaced those ignition switches, there wouldn't be this nonsense about the GM recall. Get used to poor design, don't complain, get your personal responsibility going and take care of defective product yourselves! Don't get me going on that thalodimide thing!We have become used to substandard goods, look at Ruger-a success at making second rate guns. And foreign manufacturers are stealing our jobs?

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mrbill2 posted this 27 September 2014

I agree with Joe. You buy the mounts and you find out the height don't match and you must make shims. Then the screws are to long or short. Then you need to buy a tool to ream the rings because the holes don't line up and you'll be bending the scope. “What's Next". :(

mrbill2

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