Casting a hunting type bullet

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  • Last Post 31 December 2014
havrepastor posted this 02 October 2014

I have been asking around here (small town) about casting a hunting type bullet. (i.e. .30 caliber for a 3030 gas checked) the fellow says he has a friend that cast a duplex bullet? This seems to be a bullet with a pure lead nose finished with wheel weight melt behind it. I have not attempted this yet, but wondering if anyone has any hints on doing this successfully? Also, I was thinking (dangerous my wife says) about dropping a small piece of lead shot into the mold and pouring on top of it? Is this feasable? or would it not work? Anyway, any guidance preventing a nuclear event at the end of my 3030 would be appreciated. Thanks

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John Alexander posted this 02 October 2014

There are at least two other ways to make a soft nose cast bullets in addition to the one you mention.

One is to use an alloy that can be hardened (wheel weight or other).  After the bullets are hardened by heat treatment, reduce the hardness of the nose by heating with a torch.

The best way may be to buy a mold that casts both the whole bullet with an additional smaller cavity that casts a slightly undersized nose piece.  After casting some noses  with a soft alloy they are inserted in the regular cavity and the bullet cast of harder alloy.

Similar expansion results can be obtained by using an alloy that is ductile to expand without breaking for the whole bullet and use a combination of bullet nose shape (and/or maybe hollow pointing) and enough velocity to expand the bullet.  Lyman #2 alloy is often touted as such an alloy.

Search the archives for more discussion on this topic.

John 

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gpidaho posted this 02 October 2014

Good morning Pastor:  I would like to recommend that you obtain the book Cast Bullets for Beginner and Expert by Joseph F.Brennan Jr.   available here through the  CBA  There is a wealth of information on our hobby to be found there.  Welcome to the CBA forum.    GP

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onondaga posted this 02 October 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8155>havrepastor

The novelty of hard/soft bullets is a tinkerers folly in my opinion. A big meplat flat nose hunting bullet in certified Lyman #2 alloy is not beaten for performance on game. These hit game with an audible smack,  expand to double caliber, don't contaminate meat with lead and bowl animals over dead. This RanchDog 165 gr design is currently available from  Accurate Molds, but I have an original 6 cavity RD that I cast with for 30 caliber.

Certified Lyman #2 alloy is worth every penny. It is BHN15, very malleable at hunting load level impacts of 1,000 foot pounds and above and it retains 100% bullet weight with no splattering or fragmentation that softened nose bullets will sustain. http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/lyman2bulletmetal.htm>http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/lyman2bulletmetal.htm

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/454510.jpg.html>

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havrepastor posted this 02 October 2014

Think I will order a bit. Wheel weights are harder than #2 correct? Can you mix pure lead into wheel weights and get this mix or very close? I am thinking the tin content cannot be obtained? Thanks

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onondaga posted this 02 October 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8155>havrepastor

There is no industry standard for wheel weight alloys. WW alloy can run from very soft “stick on” to harder “clip on” alloys with a range of about 8-12 BHN. The harder WW alloys have more Antimony and zero Tin for malleability and will fragment into game, the softer WW alloys splatter into game. A certified Lyman #2 Alloy is much better and worth the cost for the superior physical properties of 5% Tin and 5% Antimony with 90% Lead for optimized strength and malleability. There are formulas to get close to #2, but I prefer a certified alloy from a reliable source like RotoMetals.

WW alloy is softer than #2 . WW runs BHN 8-12 and Lyman #2 is BHN15 that doesn't fragment or splatter. WW can be heat treated to over 20 BHN but it readily fragments on game at that hardness due to a lack of Tin for malleability.

Take a look at the cost effectiveness of good metal. From a 5 pound ingot of Certified Lyman #2 alloy, I cast 212 bullets weighing 165 grains for $16.09 for the ingot. The price fluctuates and Roto has sales if you get on their mailing list, also orders over $100 have free shipping.

Gary

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havrepastor posted this 02 October 2014

Thanks for the information. I have wondered about wheel weights and their content. From your info. it seems that buying a few bars from rotometals would be a great deal as no worry about content and no more in number than you would need to hunt with, it would be very economical. Thanks again.

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jhalcott posted this 02 October 2014

Wheel weights are becoming things of the past, like dinosaurs! IF you do not already have a supply trying to get them now is almost a joke! I use them with tin solder and or linotype or monotype blends. I have made the “soft point” bullets by using a tiny dipper to drop in a measured amount of pure lead, then following with a harder alloy. I have also used aluminum foil to split the nose of the bullet. This is almost as easy and effective as hollow pointing the bullet. I really like the 311041. Mine drop out at about 172 grains. They are VERY effective on deer out of my 14” Contender. If you try straight wheel weight, test a few at 100 yards in wet pack. This will give you a good idea what will happen when that bullet/alloy hits a deer.

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havrepastor posted this 02 October 2014

Thanks. for the help.

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norm posted this 03 October 2014

havrepastor, I've used the two alloy or duplex bullets on deer and antelope and they do work. This has been written about in past Fouling Shots. What I have found is the nose usually separates and I've usually found it 6-8 inches in from the entrance hole. By that time it has done its job. I have also used single alloy bullets and they also work.12-13 bhn wheelweight alloy will expand at 100 yards with a muzzle of 1800 fps or higher. I've cut and wrapped all my deer and antelope for the freezer myself and have never seen a sign of fragmentation. It could probably happen at higher velocity. I have recovered cast bullets from deer less than 10 % of the time. Most of the time they exit.

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havrepastor posted this 03 October 2014

I am thinking of ordering the 90/5/5 #2 alloy from Rotometals. Seems to be perfect mix. No more than I would need, it would be inexpensive. Thanks for the info.

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onondaga posted this 03 October 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8155>havrepastor

I use the Lyman #2 from RotoMetals frequently, It likes to be cast at higher than ususal for most bullet alloys. I set my PID temperature controller at 700 F when casting #2 into 2 cavity aluminum molds, For 6 cavity molds I cast it at 725 F. My melting pot is a Lee 4-20 bottom pour pot with an outboard PID . For 1 or 2 cavity steel molds I cast at 725 F.

You will get a nice mold fill out with superb detail unless your pot is not hot enough or your mold is not hot enough. I cast a little hotter than “Shiny bullet” hot and experiment with temperature to get bullets velvety or very slightly frosted. The temperature that does that will give the largest diameter bullets your mold will cast and the most casting detail fill out no matter what the thermometer says.

I hope you enjoy casting Lyman #2. It is my trusted favorite for hunting bullets and I have cast bullets since 1957.

Gary

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tturner53 posted this 03 October 2014

All good advice above but I believe there is more than one way to skin this cat. If we are talking only 30-30 you can't go wrong, wheel weights with a little tin added will kill deer real good. For some more real world experience look up Ranch Dog Outdoors and his work with the 30-30. He's shot a lot of Texas white tails and hogs using water dropped wheel weights. I think Lyman #2 may be superior but the deer may not know it. Also check out Frank Marshall's B.O.W.M load for the humble 30-30. You can have a lot of fun working with a 30-30.

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havrepastor posted this 03 October 2014

Thanks, I will check the information. I've ordered the casting book stated above also as there is tremendous topics in there that I know little or nothing about. I really appreciate all the help here!

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billwnr posted this 03 October 2014

norm wrote: havrepastor, I've used the two alloy or duplex bullets on deer and antelope and they do work. This has been written about in past Fouling Shots. What I have found is the nose usually separates and I've usually found it 6-8 inches in from the entrance hole. By that time it has done its job. I have also used single alloy bullets and they also work.12-13 bhn wheelweight alloy will expand at 100 yards with a muzzle of 1800 fps or higher. I've cut and wrapped all my deer and antelope for the freezer myself and have never seen a sign of fragmentation. It could probably happen at higher velocity. I have recovered cast bullets from deer less than 10 % of the time. Most of the time they exit. Norm's shot a “few” deer with cast bullets.    I'd pick his brain.  

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goodsteel posted this 29 December 2014

For the most part, I agree with onondaga. 99.9% of all critters need only a standard bullet with a decent meplat to knock them over soundly. I have used COWW, 50/50 clip on/stick on, Lyman #2, and my standard alloy now is 95.6/2.2/2.2.I've never had bullets fracture with any of these alloys (although 50/50 air cooled @2100fps just about destroyed the frontal portion of a small deer I shot once from over expansion)

However, there are specific instances where a bi-metal bullet is desirable, and they all center around a gun that will only perform with a very hard alloy with practically no meplat. I find myself in that position right now as a matter of fact, with the 30XCB cartridge. The time has come to test the feasibility of shooting deer with a cast lead bullet traveling at 2700-3000FPS. The alloy we have accomplished these speeds with is Linotype, which some feel is unsuitable for hunting with (the jury is still out on that). I am making test projectiles out of several alloys, and I thought this very method might be a good idea given the bullet with it's sharp nose, and the necessity of using Linotype as a driving band material.  Today, I set to work creating these odd projectiles. First I took a wooden block and used a 5/16” center drill to make a cavity to hold the bullets by the noses, and then cut the bullet noses off about 1/4” from the tips.  Next, I drilled another hole not as deep and used it to hold the bullet noses so I could file them all to a set height.  Then I chucked the bullets in my DeWalt drill and and used a flat needle file to debur them and strip away any sort of part line and vent line witness from the noses. Next I heated the mold and inserted the softer noses, and closed it on them.  Linotype was poured into the cavities and the sprue was allowed to harden and solidify.  The mold was set in the molten lead until the sprue puddles liquified again and ran off the sprue plate.  Quickly, new puddles were cast on top of the mold and it was set on a piece of aluminum to cool till the sprues solidified.  This was repeated until I had created a dozen of these bullets. This was the result: You can clearly see the difference in alloy at the tip of the bullet. 

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onondaga posted this 29 December 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8104>goodsteel

I hope you are having fun but what you are doing sounds like a futile nightmare to me. I hope you are not getting bent out of shape now, but just read on.

Your estimated feasibility of shooting cast ay 2700-3000 fps has me puzzled.  If you have to have a trajectory that flat for long range game shots how do you convince yourself that you will get adequate accuracy for the range of those shots with cast bullets.. Likewise if you just want harder hitting bullets just use bullets with bigger flat noses and #2 alloy at reasonable velocity and range.

Or, if you are shooting big scary wild pigs or bears, use a 45-70. 30 caliber cast bullets just annoy big pigs and bears unless you sever their spine column high near the head.

You cannot make Linotype UN-brittle without changing it, that is a given. The amount of shattering will increase as your velocity does. At 2700 fps a Linotype bullet likely won't even pass through a deer rib and will shatter like a sintered alloy indoor range bullet on steel.

You can make linotype malleable without losing hardness and the answer to that is simple. Add tin till the tin content percentage is equal to the antimony content. Then, there will be some malleability without losing hardness and without creating brittle bullets,  but the bullets will be pretty costly. They will cost more than jacketed bullets at that point.

I think you have some pretty extreme ideas for such a simple goal.

Gary

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goodsteel posted this 29 December 2014

"I hope you are having fun but what you are doing sounds like a futile nightmare to me. I hope you are not getting bent out of shape now, but just read on."

Hey Gary, I am having fun, between bouts of horrible frustration. LOL! why would I get bent out of shape? The OP mentioned bi-metal bullets, and I just happened to have made some today. Never had a reason to do so before, but I saw this as a possible application for this novel concept.  "Your estimated feasibility of shooting cast ay 2700-3000 fps has me puzzled.  If you have to have a trajectory that flat for long range game shots how do you convince yourself that you will get adequate accuracy for the range of those shots with cast bullets.. Likewise if you just want harder hitting bullets just use bullets with bigger flat noses and #2 alloy at reasonable velocity and range. "

 The concept of the XCB is to engage antelope and similar deer sized animals at long range with a flat trajectory. This is not something I need personally, as Arkansas hunting is predominately done at short range (less than 75 yards) but I build custom rifles for gents who live in Wyoming, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, New Mexico......you get the point. In those settings, a long toss is often the norm, and most just don't even mess with cast because it would require expensive rifles that drink lead and powder like it's free, and arch like a rainbow. Many would like to have a 30 caliber solution. I intend to convince myself that I will get adequate accuracy by shooting targets at those ranges.......obviously.  Anybody that shoots cast at these velocities finds that a large flat nose is a huge limiter on speed that can be attained, and I proved that by designing a hunting bullet with a .180 meplat. That bullet was very accurate up to a certain point, and then accuracy fell apart rather suddenly. In contrast, the NOE version that you see in the pictures up yonder has been shooting well into the 2800s FPS and maintaining excellent accuracy, with the only change being the nose shape and a much smaller .080 meplat. Thus, I intend to discover if at these speeds, the bullet can be made to behave like a jacketed spitzer would.It's worth experimenting with, and I'm sure the phonebooks wont mind. "Or, if you are shooting big scary wild pigs or bears, use a 45-70. 30 caliber cast bullets just annoy big pigs and bears unless you sever their spine column high near the head."

I do shoot these calibers. I have two 1895 Marlins in 45-70 caliber and I have three 358 Winchester's, a 44 magnum rifle and handgun, but I do not subscribe to the one gun philosophy. Firearms are tools, and I'm just not a swiss army knife type of guy. I believe in using the right tool for the job.   "You cannot make Linotype UN-brittle without changing it, that is a given. The amount of shattering will increase as your velocity does. At 2700 fps a Linotype bullet likely won't even pass through a deer rib and will shatter like a sintered alloy indoor range bullet on steel."

No one knows what this alloy will do at high velocity, and there are many ways to manipulate the bullet (my post above being one option). I am merely conducting experiments to see what changes at these speeds and what stays the same. Its a new project and one I intend to see through to the hilt. The fact is, we are now shooting at nearly 3000FPS, and we need to learn how to make humane kills at these velocities, and there is NOTHING written that applies directly to the XCB project, because very few throughout history would even conceded that shooting lead this fast is possible, much less usable. 

 "You can make linotype malleable without losing hardness and the answer to that is simple. Add tin till the tin content percentage is equal to the antimony content. Then, there will be some malleability without losing hardness and without creating brittle bullets,  but the bullets will be pretty costly. They will cost more than jacketed bullets at that point."

I doubt that shooting such an alloy at 3000FPS is really as simple as you say, but I'm not above trying it, and very well may do so. As to the cost, your argument assumes that everyone who is shooting cast is doing so to save money and no one would be interested if not for that point. I don't have a problem with saving money, but if I were really all that interested in doing that, I wouldn't have built 4 rifles free of charge and just given them away to people to help move this project forward. The money and time I have spent on this project is so great that I could easily have gathered 5 tons of lead and 15 rifles to shoot it out of had cost savings been my goal. It is not. 

 "I think you have some pretty extreme ideas for such a simple goal."

.I wouldn't say the goal is all that simple, and neither would you if you were to challenge yourself to the same goals I have. You are right though, I am an extremely determined individual developing a very extreme cast bullet concept with some extremely talented gentlemen. Is it any wonder that I named the entire project XCB?  That is a loose acronym for the eXtreme Cast Bullet project.

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onondaga posted this 29 December 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8104>goodsteel

Check your PMs

Gary

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goodsteel posted this 29 December 2014

I'll repeat what has been said here before: for most hunting applications you can do no better than a flat nosed, semihard bullet. The best alloy I have found for shooting deer at 1600-2000FPS is to mix clip on wheel weights 50/50 with stick on wheel weights and water drop from the mold (I would actually recommend dropping them on the bench if you're going 1400-1600FPS). No hollow points. No bi-metal bullets. No differential heat treated bullets. These things are altogether unnecessary.

Do not underestimate the power of a standard cast bullet to kill effectively. I personally think that God laid it on the earth for this purpose specifically, it works that well. Figure what a jacketed bullet does at 2600FPS, your cast lead will do at 1800FPS.

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Canuck Bob posted this 31 December 2014

I have no direct experience with this but have conversed with a few folks on this. Veral at LBT makes molds with the separate nose portion.

Also a fellow who helped me a bit with my 303 and 32 Special has a twist on bi-metal bullets. He casts some lead noses with a small scoop. Then he places them in the mold and pours his base alloy. He then places the level mold on a hot plate until the sprue melts assuring the bullet does not have a seam.

His report was that he only made a few so time was not an issue and he experienced no change in POI from normally cast bullets in the mold.

I add this only because the OP asked. Pursuing such activities does seem a perfectly acceptable endeavour for the curious, but too tedious for me. Personally I decided to stick with single alloy bullets, gas checks, and wide meplat noses. The simplest and cheapest centerfire shooting option which appeals to me. All my cast shooters are levers and I hunt with a 444.

If I lived in the USA I would source Lyman #2 in a heartbeat for hunting bullets. A lifetime supply of hunting bullets would come from 10#s for me at 10-15 cents per bullet. Kinda like having a box of Nosler Partitions on the shelf for serious work.

One other option is paper wrapped but I suspect the tedious factor will be high. It seems possible to shoot a proper pliable hunting bullet alloy at velocities far above the 30-30 range. It is a tinkerers dream as well!

One thing does come through loud and clear, folks who hunt with cast bullets are usually happy to continue. As well a guy is disconnected from the bullet supply crisis and spotty production runs so common these days.

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