model 58 sizing question

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  • Last Post 08 January 2015
shootzem6.5 posted this 04 January 2015

Hi folks. After reading a thread on this site(?) about cylinder mouth size, i got out my pinned barrel model 58 and checked, its .409. So then i slugged the barrel, but with 5 grooves its a bit difficult to get an accurate measurement but im confident its .4085ish and the Lee 410-195 drops @.410. Ive been loading as cast, so my question is would a .409 size die be suitable?, is .0005 not enough clearance? Isn`t .001 a loosely recommended bullet/bore fit?

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onondaga posted this 04 January 2015

The correct size for revolver bullets can be determined by dropping a bare, non lubed bullet into a cylinder chamber nose first. It should take a 1 -2 pound push with a pencil to get it through. Lighter and your bullet is too small, will lead up your firearm and likely shoot all over the place. Tighter than 2 pounds and they sure won't chamber easily enough for your shooting enjoyment.

If you are loading as cast and getting good results, sizing will make the bullets smaller and make them shoot worse. Bullets do not size larger than cast only smaller.

You don't need to measure anything following the method above, just get the bullet to fit with the 1-2 pound push, that is all your revolver needs for fit of cast bullets.

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 January 2015

just noticed you say bullets cast at 0.410 but drop into a 0.409 throat ...are you deep seating them to do that ? just wondering . sounds like you are setting about right already; lucky you !!

ken

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Larry Gibson posted this 04 January 2015

Shot a gob of Lee 195 SWCs sized .410 through my M58 (before I was talked out of it.....dumb.....) with excellent accuracy and no leading. I use COWWs back then and Javelina lube.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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shootzem6.5 posted this 05 January 2015

When i slugged  the barrel, i used a wood dowel almost equal diameter, took more than 2 lbs to push bullet thru the 4” barrel, that bullet wasnt happy about that.  Ive not  had any problems with cartridges dropping into the cylinder, home rolled or factory, and i seat and crimp at the crimp groove. My current load is 195 swc, 4.5 gr, TrailBoss, WLP or 4.5 Titegroup & WLP. What prompted me to slug the gun is the 4” groups at 21 ft.  I consider this a defensive weapon and  feel it should group better than this. I know it was a carry gun, purchased by a Me. town police dept.(S&W/ Roy Jinks history letter). OK, i just used a pencil to push an unlubed 195 swc with a pencil thru the cyl. mouth and its quite tight, much more than two lbs.  I cast this lot of bullets last July from range lead.  It seems to me that the bullet should be slightly smaller than the cylinder mouth and S&W sized the barrel groove to that value. 

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shootzem6.5 posted this 05 January 2015

COWWS? What are coww`s?

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Chargar posted this 05 January 2015

Your .409 number is most likely incorrect. The throats must be cleaned of powder fouling and lead and measured with accurate tools. A set of calipers is the wrong tool for the task.

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shootzem6.5 posted this 05 January 2015

Limited budget.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 05 January 2015

4 inches at 20 feet does seem a little short of optimum ...is that with a hand rest ? although 4 inches using a one-hand cowboy stance isn't that bad; i am not sure i could do better ...

have you had a whizbang target shooter shoot some groups ?

how does it shoot with jacketed bullets ?

challenges make life interesting ...

ken

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vsig posted this 05 January 2015

has any one got daqtes for nationals at ration

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Chargar posted this 05 January 2015

I have suffered from “limited budget syndrome” for most of my adult life, so I understand the limitations that places on our shooting and gun buying. I have managed to accumulate good measuring tools over the years though. I have had nothing but good luck with Smith and Wesson 41 Magnums, although I have only owned two. It had a 4” Model 57 and a 4” Model 58. Both were excellent shooters. However I never could hang on to them as I had so many other handguns that did the same things plus things the 41 would not do. I do have my records of the specs of those two sixguns. They both had .410 barrel groove and .411 cylinder throats. I expect that is typical of how Smith and Wesson made these things. At any rate, I used .410 cast bullets in both and never had any problems.  At 21 feet I would expect all bullets to go through one ragged hole less than an inch across. I am talking about standing using both hands and taking my time. If I was running the cylinder fast double action, the group size would be considerably more. 

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onondaga posted this 05 January 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8712>shootzem222

COWW is an abbreviation for clip on wheel weight alloy. COWW is an unstandardized alloy of lead with a small percentage of Antimony and it usually hardness tests at about  BHN10 hardness. COWW is a soft alloy for bullets and suitable for light to medium pressure handgun loads.

The bad news is that if your groove to groove bore diameter is equal to or larger than the forcing cone in the throats of your cylinder chambers, your revolver will never be very accurate with cast bullets of any size but will probably be fine with jacketed bullets.

Cast bullets need a G to G bore diameter smaller than the constriction in the chambers of a revolver. This difference is usually .001- .002"with the G to G measurement being smaller. Some revolvers are not designed to shoot cast bullets well and some revolvers fall out of specifications far enough to never shoot cast bullets well.

Your situation sounds as though you will have to part with some money and have a gunsmith evaluate your pistol that is excellent at evaluating revolvers for their use with cast bullets. This takes a very good pistol smith as most of them are fine with revolvers shooting jacketed bullets but have little experience or knowledge evaluating a revolver for cast bullets. Some critical measurements needed for cast bullets will have to be evaluated for your handgun. Gary

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shootzem6.5 posted this 06 January 2015

Two hand hold kneeling behind bench,single action. Am i  being anal here? I know 4"`s addresses “center of mass” quite adequately, should that need ever come. I have come to expect better from the cartridge  and being new to the great wealth of experience and knowledge of CB here i thought i might be able to improve the performance. Maybe its a case of “be thankful for what ya got, it could  be worse! Thanks everybody

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shootzem6.5 posted this 06 January 2015

LOL, and i thought COWW was Cream Of Wheat (W?), LOL. Since embarrassing CB`s as a cheaper way to shoot and discovering that good accuracy is available to those who work a little harder i find its like most pursuits, it generally costs more. I accept the 4” bbl. limitations and will rob from peter to improve the .222 rifles.

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shootzem6.5 posted this 06 January 2015

@Chargar, this is my first 4", the others were 6"&8” M57s and thats what im using for the baseline, “1 ragged hole at 20 ft". But the 57`ss are target equipped, the 58 is different beast. Maybe Onondagas “bore hone treatment” will help here.

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onondaga posted this 06 January 2015

Shootzem, it does take diligence! But, do your part and you should expect a revolver to shoot better with cast than with jacketed bullets.  Bullet fit is the key, along with matching your alloy to your load level. There is no shortcuts. Get everything right and your revolver will amaze you.

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Chargar posted this 06 January 2015

shootzem222 wrote: @Chargar, this is my first 4", the others were 6"&8” M57s and thats what im using for the baseline, “1 ragged hole at 20 ft". But the 57`ss are target equipped, the 58 is different beast. Maybe Onondagas “bore hone treatment” will help here. The 4” Model 58 is not inherently less accurate than longer barrel Model 57s. The longer barrel, better sights and wide trigger may the 57s a little easier to shoot but not more accurate. With a good fixed sight SMith and Wesson service revolver I would still expect one ragged hole at 20 feet.  Shooting kneeling, single action, two handed, I would expect 4 to 6 inch groups at 50 yards and I am 72 years old. 20 feet is not much more than rock throwing distance. 

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shootzem6.5 posted this 06 January 2015

@ Onondaga    Your right, i will get there. Cast bullet shooting for me isnt new. I started shooting CBs back in the mid 80`s, but, i bought bullets, used published load data, for the then popular handgun games, pin shoots, bullseye, indoor an

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 January 2015

This discussion about a S&W Model 58 just caught my attention.

I own two Model 58's and one Model 57 (8 3/8"). One of the 58's has never been shot so it is the ONLY “collector” gun I have. The 57 has been shot the most, 17,645-rounds since 1982, maybe 98% have been cast bullets and mostly shot in handgun silhouette matches. Both it and the 58 prefer bullets sized at 0.411” dia. The mould I've had the best luck with is an original H&G #268, a 220-grainer Keith type plain base. But I do own (12) .41 moulds.

At one time I also owned a Freedom Arms and Eldorado, both single action revolvers, chambered in .41 Mag. And , yes those two also preferred the 0.411” size diameter.

FWIW

Tom

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shootzem6.5 posted this 07 January 2015

Interesting, does the H&G drop a bullet larger than .411? Or do you size as a matter of course?

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 January 2015

I'll check at home tonight and let you know.

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Tom Acheson posted this 08 January 2015

in an alloy of 50% lino and 50% WW, they drop from the mould at 0.412” to 0.413” max.

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shootzem6.5 posted this 08 January 2015

Thanks for responding, good info to have if it proves that i need to start with a larger bullet and size down accordingly.

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