44 Rem Mag Beginner Bullets

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Last Post 23 September 2016

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Bongo Boy posted this 13 January 2015

I'd like some recommendations if you don't mind. I don't own a revolver and never have, but I soon will, if things go according to plan. I'm gonna need to pour projectiles pronto. I've had very good experiences with Accurate and MP molds, gas checks aren't something that I want to get in to or that make sense to mel for revolvers, I lube with an RCBS lubrisizer and don't care for the look or concept of tumble-lube. I don't hunt and never will, and enjoy punching nice holes with round-nose flat points in the 45. I have well over a 1/2 ton of lead on the garage floor, so don't mind heavier bullets. My experience is these are easy-shooting anyway, relative to lighter ones. So, with that introduction, I'm really looking for a recommendation for a bullet yo629-5u think can be loaded up to say a '7' or '8' on the scale of decent 44 Mag loads in terms of manliness, still be accurate using #7, #9, 800X, or 2400, yet not be so heavy as to waste lead given I'm going to be range shooting most of this. Right now mihec appears to have nothing, so Accurate is where I'm looking.

With absolutely no experience yet, I'm looking at something about 240 gr, roughly, with a round nose flat point profile. I like to load bullets that I find attractive, and in cast bullets I find 'ball' style and wadcutters the least appealing.

I'm currently all over the board in a way regaring what I'll be shooting these magic bullets in, and while I know it's a little silly to ask for recommendations without even hinting at the gun they'll be fired in, I can't narrow it down much. It will be something like a 629 4” to 8". The list of most likely firearms in order of decreasing likeliness are 629 'Hunter' 7-8” (depending on how many $1000 of dollars someone is willing to subsidize me), down to the shortest option which is something like a 4” 629 of some sort. All of these quirky desires can be easily overridden by “mold can actually be purchased now". I need to be casting. Life is short, and lead is going up.

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onondaga posted this 13 January 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy

Due to your lot of lead and wanting to jump into high volume casting for the .44 Mag, my first recommndation is the 6 cavity Lee TL430-240-SWC :

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/656156/lee-6-cavity-bullet-mold-tl430-240-swc-44-special-44-remington-magnum-44-40-wcf-430-diameter-240-grain-tumble-lube-semi-wadcutter?cm_vc=ProductFinding>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/656156/lee-6-cavity-bullet-mold-tl430-240-swc-44-special-44-remington-magnum-44-40-wcf-430-diameter-240-grain-tumble-lube-semi-wadcutter?cmvc=ProductFinding

The Lee 6 cavity molds are made by their best machinists and are wonderful quality. I have been casting bullets since 1958 but just started with the 6 cavity casting a few years ago. They are easy to learn on if you watch YouTube videos on using them as I did.

I have used this bullet in .44 Mag and loved it for accuracy just simply cast in Wheel Weight alloy, tumble lubed and loaded without sizing.

The Lee 6 cavity is $39.99 and

handles are $12.99:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/117892/lee-commercial-bullet-mold-handles-for-6-cavity-lee-bullet-molds>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/117892/lee-commercial-bullet-mold-handles-for-6-cavity-lee-bullet-molds

You don't need to make it harder of more expensive than needed, That is what I recommend. Lee has a total of 5 different 6 cavity molds for .44 Mag, but the one I recommended specifies that bullets drop .430", the others drop .429".

Gary

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 January 2015

Bongo Boy: From the FWIW department. The revolver has been my first love since I bought the first one some time in the early sixties. Back in the day when I was bullet proof and the only MO was full throttle, including a 68 Camaro. A fair number have passed through since then including several 44 mags. However most are gone now save for a 44 special that still gets used quite often. So, to the point of all this. The most important thing for accuracy in a revolver is the diameter of the chamber mouths and their relationship to the groove diameter of the barrel. This can be determined only after you get your wheel gun. There is lots of info in the archives on this by just using the search button. There is a vast array of mold designs for the 44 mag. but all I have ever used is the 240 grn. FPSWC. So basically it really depends on what you chose and your intended purpose. Because all my HG shooting is just for the fun of it any more, I used nothing but plain base. No need for GC's. Suits my MO just fine. The 4 5/8” barreled 44 special is loaded with an RCBS PB 246 grn. SWC that just so happens to fit this revolver as cast and lubed with thinned liquid Alox. This relatively mild load will repeatedly hit the 150 yd full sized steel turkeys on our lever action silhouette range when I am up to the task. Serves my intended purpose just fine. So, there are lots of choices and it's up to you. Good luck.

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Bongo Boy posted this 13 January 2015

Thanks very much for the recommendation, Gary. I've got a 1/2 dozen of the Lee 6-cavity molds in .45 and .40 and have been very happy with them (unless I get them too hot and they get sticky--that's my fault not a fault of the mold).

In rummaging thru the internet on the topic I just ran across a little article (Chuck Hawks) where he says “Actually, in any magnum handgun caliber, it is best to forgo lead bullets.", but he doesn't go on to elaborate. I assume this is based on a leading complaint, since that's the only routine complaint I see with regard to lead bullets.

Now, for my own experience limited to 40SW, 10mm and 45ACP, leading has never been a 'problem' even in those rare cases where I've noticed it. But these calibers don't compare to 44 Mag, I understand.

I just wonder if anyone has any input on why they would forgo cast in 44 Mag. This may not be the right forum to ask about 'forgoing' cast bullets, eh? :D

With regard to bullet diameter and the actual gun measurements, thanks for that RD--just finished reading what may very well have been your comments over on Cast Bullets, and it seems things are not quite so simple now. What's always baffled me a little bit is how folks actually deal with the fact that their slug measurements indicate the need for, say, a .430” bullet, for example. It seems to me in general you have molds available in “this size” and sizing dies available in “that size", and there are your choices. I mean, unless you have stuff custom made.

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 January 2015

"In rummaging thru the internet on the topic I just ran across a little article (Chuck Hawks) where he says “Actually, in any magnum handgun caliber, it is best to forgo lead bullets.", but he doesn't go on to elaborate. I assume this is based on a leading complaint, since that's the only routine complaint I see with regard to lead bullets.” While I have not read Hawk's article, from my experience, I have no idea why he made that statement without any elaborating. I have shot cast loads from wild to mild in 44 and 357 mags without any leading or problems. This of course was when the alloy and fit were right. And using GC's when pushing velocity. Either he was just repeating what had been written regarding the .357 mag when it was first introduced back when, or doesn't have an understanding of what it takes to shoot lead bullets in a HG. Initially they were trying to shoot PB lead bullets in the 357 like jacketed, too fast. Check out the writings of Elmer Keith, Ross SeyFried and Skeeter Skelton.

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corerf posted this 13 January 2015

Get a 310gr lee fpgc mold and don't look back. Also get a lyman 240gr swc Keith mold and again don't look back.

You have a heavy which will typically outshoot anything ever developed, and a Keith which is...... A Keith. Every need you have will be satisfied by these two molds. Load down, load up..... Make sure the Keith is plain based. You'll be a happy shooter. This is from experience.

I only shoot jacketed in a 44 so I can see what my baseline accuracy is. I do it once from a bench rest. Then I'm done. Cast have been every bit as accurate as jacketed in a freedom arms, Ruger super rh, Ruger bh hunter and shooting some 44 mag to break in a 445 sm barrel single shot. Vs factory jacketed, my cast hand loads have been more accurate more than half the time, even in development

Leading has been mostly miss, not hit. Push plain based too hard and I get a bit. But that's my fault. With gas checks, I can eat off the surfaces. I prefer slow powders, unlike many members. Recoil is not bothersome, although I expect as I age and arms deteriorate (expected due to genetics), my mind will change. This may be why I have little leading to contend with and any leading found, no brush is used to remove. Simply eds red, jag and patch. Maybe a tiny bit of 0000 wool if it's stuck in a difficult spot.

I have a good supply of IMI Israeli 44 mag 240 jsp, like 500 rounds. That's an end of days supply. They can sit and rot. I won't shoot jacketed. It's just wasteful and they are devoid of penetration compared to the lee 310.

That's a few highlights of my 44 mag experience. Dale turned me on to that lee, I think he drew the thing up if I recall. His posts are valuable in this regard. Maybe do a search on dale. His handle was/is dale53 I think. The lee is a 100 yard bullet from short barrels. It has a following for a reason.

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onondaga posted this 13 January 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy

That is great you have experience with 6 cavity mold casting. The Tumble lube design from Lee I recommended generally is big enough for most .44 Mags. They usually chamber with a little slide feel on the way in and that is a good fit.

The Lee Liquid Alox works fine but I prefer the commercial 45:45:10 Deluxe from White Label. I consider it a big improvement over LLA. I warm the lube and bullets before tumble and it dries clear and tack free in 5 minutes. one quart at $15 lasts about forever also. Here is where I get it:

http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?mainpage=productinfo&cPath=2&productsid=31&zenid=3f0e932e1ed6eb371387d998bc72059e

Gary

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Tom Acheson posted this 13 January 2015

Don't own a .44 revolver, too many .41's, but I have a Lyman 429244, 255-grain gas check mould that I use to make for a friend's Ruger Super Blackhawk. He likes those bullets and shoots a lot of them. He uses WW 296 so maybe he is at the velocity level where the gas check is needed, not sure.

Tom

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 January 2015

That Lyman 429244 was the second mold that I ever bought years ago and was for my 44's. Mine is a four cavity GC and have intentions of sending it off to have two cavities modified to PB. Haven't gotten around to it yet.

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tturner53 posted this 13 January 2015

There's so many good .44 molds it's hard to pick one. I do really like that Lee 310 grainer. Loaded up it's a handful and will stop a train.

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corerf posted this 13 January 2015

Tim, yes it will.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 January 2015

ditto on the lee 310 gr. makes a short 45-70 out of a belly gun if you put a big gulp of h110 in there ... also most accurate of several i tried.

thru the mirror, i have a 1956 herter's 240 gr that does nothing right, including accuracy ... guess some designs really are better than others ...

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 14 January 2015

I have found it difficult to get a good zero with standard factory sights with bullets heavier than about 260 grains in the .44 Mag. I use mostly the Accurate 43-230G with 7.2 grains of Bullseye in both. 44-40 and .44 Magnum, pleasant and accurate. Powerful enough.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid1 posted this 15 January 2015

I'm liking the Seaco 260 flat point round nose over 8 to 10g of AA no.5. We like our new Hornady progressive here. Accurate molds has a few designs like this.

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Bongo Boy posted this 15 January 2015

Well guys, you know how the young'ns are...they may ask for your advice but they're just grinnin' ya. Seriously, I felt I had to make a choice in a hurry (which truthfully is complete BS), and I chose a much lighter bullet--a 240 in fact. Some day I will likely grow to learn about the benefits of the heavier ones.

I chose a bullet that has some mass up front, allows a bit of case capacity after seated, and has something on the nose to ride the barrel. Couldn't live with a tumble lube design, and wanted a fairly blunt, flat nose. We'll see how it goes.

Looks like this:

http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/43-240E_zpsa59b4eb2.jpg.html>

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delmarskid1 posted this 16 January 2015

I looked at self same bullet. I'm using the AA5 because I have a jug full. 800X has been used in the .44. I think the numbers looked pretty good.

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oscarflytyer posted this 16 January 2015

I like SWCs for my revolvers and 1911. Had/loaded cast for 3 SBHs over past 25+ yrs. Currently shooting a BH flattop in 44 SPC. Only bullet I have used that I like and always go back to is the Keith 429421. THE reason I finally started casting myself is because I couldn't buy the 429421 the way I wanted it. I have MiHecs 429412 mold. Second one I ever bought and love it.

If I were going with only one bullet for the 44 Mag, it would be a 429421 and shoot 2400 and be done. Always worked great for me.

PS - only 44 that wouldn't shoot the 429421 was a Ruger Redhawk. Reason I got rid of it. Many years later found out it was because Ruger made forcing cone and bbl mismatch in size. OK - never really cared for it anyway! Much fonder of the BH/SBH - I love the SAs!

PSS - If/when you get a 44, If you want some bullets to try, happy to send you a few of the 429421s I cast. They are tumble lubed with 45/45/10, or catch me and I can send you some naked. Cast of WW + 2% tin. Push mine up to ~1000 no prob. Also have a Lee RNFP FB that is supposed to be 200, but my mold drops WW + 2% at 217 grn. I sue 220 grn data. Again, welcome to some of those to try also. I don't push them as fast as the 429421

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Bud Hyett posted this 16 January 2015

Many years go, there was an used Ohaus three-cavity copy of the Keith 240 grain SWC at a good price at the Monroe Gun Show and it went home with me. It casts at .431 with wheel-weight metal and shoots well with 8.8 grains of Unique for a medium load or 18.0 grains of 2400 for a heavier load.

I think your choice of a mold is similar and should provide a good bullet. I've got three Super Black Hawks and a Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum, this bullet and these loads work well in all of them.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Bongo Boy posted this 16 January 2015

Oh my goodness things just busted loose at Starline and they're actually taking orders for 44 Mag brass once again. Life is good.

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joeb33050 posted this 16 January 2015

There's the easy way, and the hard way.You can spend the money and time, and make the same mistakes we all made fooling around with custom molds and powders made in Transylvania. And lubes based on yak fat.Or, you can get a Lyman 2 cavity 429421, cast them out of anything that melts, size as little as possible, any reasonable lube, use 9 grains of Unique 98.7% of the time and 2400 when you're going to shoot a moose.The choice is yours.

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Bongo Boy posted this 16 January 2015

I'd like to wait for the 4-cavity to become available but, yes, that's definitely sounding like a proven bullet no question. As for lubes, I've only tried maybe 3 or 4 at the most, with Jake's Purple Ceresin being The One. Seems to work wonderfully for everything I've loaded (so far), and it's been a big favorite in no small part because it stays put.

The problem with powders is, obviously, there aren't any to be had. I'm still amazed--I can buy primers by the 1000s, brass and bullets by the ton...but no powder. It's hard to understand that, with all the time that's passed since the last crisis, supply can't put powder on the shelves for even a day. Crimping

This will be my first-ever roll crimp and I see my first-ever negative review of the Lee Factory Crimp die--reviewer says not so good for cast bullet crimping due to being overly 'aggressive'. Imagine also my surprise to get my set of dies for 44 Mag and the set of 3 doesn't include a crimp die...should have read a bit more carefully. Any recommendations for a crimp die--and especially one that will work well for both lead and jacketed, if possible? I'd prefer a die that just crimps, doesn't seat, size, decap, load powder, give me a warning or try to make me espresso.

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corerf posted this 16 January 2015

Well said and accurate Joe. Thats money!

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onondaga posted this 16 January 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy

Any crimping die can be used over aggressively, roll, taper or collet. It is the ham handed poorly literate dorks that don't follow directions and complain about all of them. The Lee Collet FCD can be set from light to heavy and beyond. You can caliper measure what you are doing with the Lee FCD and set it where you desire from none to light to heavy to foolish.

There are a LOT of Lee haters that base their life on complaining about Lee products and they get aggressive when they realize that Lee inexpensive products are better than the expensive ones they have that try to copy the effectiveness of Lee and fail.

No one has broken the Lee patents for their collet crimping dies and collet neck sizing dies yet. Some find that infuriating, I find it rewarding to use Lee products and find the ignorant complaints about them pretty funny.

Now let me tell you how I really feel!!!!!

Gary

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joeb33050 posted this 16 January 2015

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy

Now let me tell you how I really feel!!!!!

Gary John A. bought my 223 lee collet die. The 308 die is still waiting, $20 TYD.This is sometimes called putting your money where your mouth is. Sometimes called whining. Hi Tom.

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Bongo Boy posted this 16 January 2015

That's actually reassuring to me, because the comment didn't make a lot of sense. But, I'm in new territory and thought, “Well maybe they started welding the Factory Crimp dies so you can't adjust them anymore.” )

I've never read any comment about them (until the one I just referenced) that was anything but “use this one, it's perfect".

New territory for me is this: in crimping straight-walled auto pistol cases (my ONLY experience), I have been very happy just taking out any case mouth swelling that I put in with the expander--which is borderline almost not enough in my setup. So, I barely expand the mouth (if I start to shave the bullets I say, okay guy, give it a little something), then just take that out. I have to use the OptiVisor to see a tiny bit of burnishing at the very end of the case.

That works, but I'm thinking has almost no bearing at all on a 44 Mag case or how to do it right. I'll keep my eyes open and do my research.

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onondaga posted this 16 January 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy

Here are 2 extreme examples of what I can do with the Lee FCD collet crimping dies:

Here an FCD was used for a heavy crimp on a heavy bullet in a heavy big bore load to prevent bullet setback from recoil on rounds in the magazine.

This range of adjustability is easily measured with the beaks of a caliper and the results can be set to wherever you desire in the range of the die in any caliber that collet FCD's are available.

You can choose anywhere you wish in the range of the collet FCD die for your .44 Mag. and your load.

I hope this makes it clear to you why I think the complaints about Collet FCD Lee CRIMPING dies are silly and without merit. These Lee FCD's have a wide range of adjustment that the complainers literally don't understand.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 17 January 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy

Something about the Lee FCD's that does confuse users is that some particular calibers of the FCD crimp dies are only available in a tapered crimp version. These are the semi- auto calibers like 45 ACP, etc. The tapered Crimp FCD's are adjustable for depth of taper crimp but THOSE SPECIFIC examples do not have collets for crimping and they only taper crimp. It is difficult to detect which is which in some examples and a call to Lee about specific calibers and whether a specific FCD is a taper crimp or a collet crimp will be answered by Lee in a moment.

The specific taper crimp FCD's that don't have collets do appear as they are not adjustable, but they are adjustable for depth of the taper crimp through a very complete range.

It is a very good idea for a beginner to learn and completely understand the difference between roll crimping, taper crimping and collet factory crimping.

Gary

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Bongo Boy posted this 30 January 2015

Yes, maybe incorrectly, I would have assumed any FCD for a revolver cartridge would be a roll crimp die. But, until now I'd never heard of a collet die. So, it's noteworthy (for me, aanyway), that Lee offers a 'non-catalogued' collet style crimp die for 44 Magnum, which suggests the standard FCD does not make use of a collet. One of the first experiments I'll do is to see how much crimp is really necessary in my particular gun ('necessary' here meaning only how much crimp, if any, is needed to prevent bullet migration). I'm very curious about what I'll find.

In any case, the FCD came last week and the new mold came today, so I'm excited to cast and lube some of these babies. Too bad I contracted a nasty head cold--casting is not high on my list of things to do with a fever. Equally exciting, the gun shipped today, so I'm definitely excited about that: http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/629-3HunterIILewHorton_zps48e7ab08.jpg.html>http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/240grRNFP430_zpsc55cc660.jpg.html>http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/240grRNFP430Cast_zpscff49d19.jpg.html>http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/First44s2a_zps5f70c5ba.jpg.html>

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Bongo Boy posted this 02 February 2015

I mis-measured my throat diameter when I posted this--had a panic. Went back and measured them all several times, no cause for alarm. Please ignore.

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onondaga posted this 02 February 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy

Gotta comment on your bullets as I am a retired casting analyst.

Your bullets are shiny and under filled due to cold. Either your casting cadence is slow, like less than 3 drops a minute from your mold or your pot temp is too low. You have cold short ripples on your bullets surfaces from a thermal imbalance and the metal cooling too rapidly as it is cast.

Although shiny bullets are pleasing to look at, shiny bullets indicates your mold or alloy was too cold and you have incomplete fill out.

Try casting at a faster pace keeping your mold hotter to get your bullets to drop with a velvety surface. Then, you will have more complete fill out, sharp edges where they should be sharp and the largest diameter your mold will drop bullets.

If you get leading when you shoot these bullets, bullets cast larger with better temperature control, timing and a larger diameter bullet sizing die will end the leading. You can likely get another .001-.002” bullet diameter just by modifying your casting method to get the bullets a little frosty looking.

Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 03 February 2015

I have been using the Lee die set for .44 since they first came out with carbide inserts in the sizing die. They did not have a factory crimp die to sell yet. The bullet seating die will put a nice roll crimp on the case mouth that fits into the crimp groove of cast bullets and jacketed as well. I've heard a lot of good things said about the Lee factory crimp die. Over crimping is pretty easy to spot. The crimp will be a sort of flat looking thing and the press handle will put out a heavy bumping over feel when bullets are seated. Convention states that full charges of the slower powders need a full roll crimp to make enough chamber pressure to get a good burn. I like lighter loads and lighter crimps. Heavy crimping makes the case mouth crack sooner. As the crimp process is repeated the crimps are said to grow weaker. I've been using the same set of Lee .44 dies for almost thirty years. I like the shape of that flat round nose bullet that you made.

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corerf posted this 03 February 2015

Light loads, fast powder, light bullets, low recoil, light crimp. Heavy loads, slow powder, heavies, high recoil, heavy crimp. Roll crimp all 296/2400 and similar powders at full monte to help with powder burn. Simple rules not to be bypassed or sidestepped. Too many generations of shooters before me have determined, proven and again proven.

We are still talking about the 44mag yes?

Some share these common practices to help save others money, time and frustration.some refuse to go along and will learn over time what the rules are, for themselves.

I have had success for all powders except 296 using standard primers with low es in velocity. Don't sweat shotgun powders and std primers. That's no mag load! Your actually better off with std.

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rockquarry posted this 03 February 2015

This is not intended as a criticism of Lee Precision products as such, but rather an inquiry regarding the use of the Factory Crimp Die. It seems that if handloading is properly done (including, of course, the crimping step), there is no “need” for the FCD. Or, am I overlooking an important point?

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onondaga posted this 03 February 2015

Yes ROCKQUARRY , You are overlooking an important fact. Crimping is a safety requirement for some load/firearms to stop bullet setback from recoil .

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rockquarry posted this 03 February 2015

The necessity of crimping was not overlooked; it was mentioned in the post.

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Bongo Boy posted this 03 February 2015

rockquarry wrote: This is not intended as a criticism of Lee Precision products as such, but rather an inquiry regarding the use of the Factory Crimp Die. It seems that if handloading is properly done (including, of course, the crimping step), there is no “need” for the FCD. Or, am I overlooking an important point? I don't think you are. I just produced what appear to me to be perfectly fine crimps using the die that came with the 3-die set--the seating/crimp die. Now, this die has what I perceive to be a regular conical crimp insert, and I initially produced about 40 rounds using a crimp I would say is typical of of my auto-pistol loads: absolute minimum crimp need to take out the flare from the expander--plus a little bit. So this morning, I added maybe just under a 1/2 turn on die itself (and backed out the seater accordingly), and I have what looks like a crimp that will hold. It's extremely difficult for me to imagine it wouldn't: http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/44crimp01_zpsba07c151.jpg.html>

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Bongo Boy posted this 03 February 2015

Thank you very much, Gary. Those bullets are from the first 15 min or so of casting and I expect things were a little cool, and I didn't even measure the pot temperature on that run. The mold was certainly hot, judging by sprue cooling time being longer than I like to go, but the pot itself I think was on the cool side.

As for shininess--all photographed bullets were extensively polished with a T-shirt. :) They certainly don't come out of the mold looking like that. Many in fact were getting a bit frosty before I shut things down. It was a sloppy, short run.

Great tip--I had no idea I'd be able to get a bit more 'puff' to the final bullet by changing temperature. While I've seen reference to that, I've never paid attention to it or did any measurements. Something I'll try. Next run, I'll be in the mood for actually getting out the thermometer and managing the pot--this was a slacker run of 50 bullets or so and I was in a hurry. Never a recipe for quality I don't suppose.

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Bongo Boy posted this 03 February 2015

delmarskid1 wrote: I have been using the Lee die set for .44 since they first came out with carbide inserts in the sizing die...The bullet seating die will put a nice roll crimp on the case mouth that fits into the crimp groove of cast bullets and jacketed as well...I like the shape of that flat round nose bullet that you made. Ah, okay. I assumed this was a taper, I guess because the die looked like a straight taper. But at the depth of crimp I'm using and my lack of familiarity, it looked more like a taper to me than a roll. Either way, it does indeed appear to be a very nice match for the crimp groove. Thanks for the kind comments on the bullet shape--I have high hopes for their ability to punch nice crisp holes in paper.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1362>corerf wrote:I have had success for all powders except 296 using standard primers with low es in velocity. Okay, good to know. I've now put together about 100 rds of the light 800X loads using standard primers, and have another 100 or so primed now with mag primers ready to go. I'll use the same loads for those and see what happens. I would prefer not to have to deal with the mag primers if they don't really buy me anything.

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Bongo Boy posted this 05 February 2015

Your observational skills are astonishing, Gary. Let's take a look at what is the best I can do with my current melt. It's pretty ugly. After dinner last night I fired up the lead pot and about 90 minutes later came out to find things had stabilized at 780F. Heated up the mold and poured away.

I had not really noticed on the last pour but did on this one--there's some signs of zinc in this mix based on the silvery slush on the surface of the melt, and moreso based on the stringiness of the stream from the ladle.

In any case, I was okay with what I was getting:

http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/240s01_zps6f00ee82.jpg.html>http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/240203_zps0c124661.jpg.html>http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/240s04_zps040fba64.jpg.html>http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/240202_zpsa829bb8f.jpg.html>

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onondaga posted this 05 February 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3348>Bongo Boy Looks like a little Zinc, maybe 1/2 of 1% or less. But you you doing well with it.

Gary

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corerf posted this 05 February 2015

I hate zinc.

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Bongo Boy posted this 06 February 2015

Dumb zinc. :X

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Ed Harris posted this 06 February 2015

Key in reducing zinc contamination when rendering your wheelweights to ingots is to use a thermometer on the melt and keep the melt temperature below about 740 degs. F, then the zinc weights will float on the top of the melt and can be skimmed off.

Then flux well, and clean and flux again when putting the ingots in the pot. If you have ingots which slight zinc contamination in them as yours show, blend some clean alloy into the pot, add a bit of tin, flux again and run the temperature up a bit, but stay below 750 degs. F so that you don't oxidize off the tin.

Remember that Dilution is the Solution to Pollution!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bongo Boy posted this 16 February 2015

I got the pot down to maybe 10-15 lbs and loaded in a bunch of ingots I remembered as being 'pretty good', and sure enough the bullets straightened out a lot.

Man oh man...I started out with these 240s over 12.4gr of 800X based on comments regarding that load at handloads.com. Shooting was okay but not great, but I just attributed that to the fact I was quite sick that day at the range and was fatiguing badly.

Well, went to the range with those same loads today, plus another 100 that were loaded to 12.8 gr 800X. The lighter loads were still as mediocre as before, but the heavier ones--wow. Oooooh baybeeee...what a difference that .4gr makes! Nasty groups went away as long as I didn't try to unload 6 rounds without taking a rest. Tightened right up.

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Bongo Boy posted this 06 March 2015

Okay. I continued adding random samples of lead to my pot last night and noticed things were getting just slightly 'stringier' as I added in ingots from a particular source--so I stopped that, and added in a 10 lb block of likewise unknown stuff that I recalled being pretty good. Wow...the entire surface of the melt changed immediately to a super-smooth glass-like surface. The pour from the ladle showed almost no signs of the nasty zinc 'string'. So I ran with it, and was able to get about 500 poured before I gave in.

http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Handloading/Accurate20240s_zpsk5pxdh2f.jpg.html>

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Bongo Boy posted this 18 March 2015

At this point I'm having a conversation with myself, but this was the best I was able to do so far at 15 yds freestyle ('offhand'). I have high confidence this crazy 'group' can be tightened up with more patience. For me, this is pretty good. It's a 2 1/2” group but my excuse is there's a couple of flinches (the 6 o'clocks) and one pure trigger jerk (the 3 o'clock). The rest I don't have an excuse for...but I'm thinking of one.

http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/Shooting/240%20gr%20RNFP%2044%20Mag_zps3lzz1hxp.jpg.html>

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delmarskid1 posted this 18 March 2015

Nothing wrong with that. Hold that in front of your chest and you'll see what I mean.

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Bongo Boy posted this 19 March 2015

Well, I just got back from the range in an effort to tighten that 2 1/2” group, and after 30 minutes was just able maintain 4- or 5-inch groups. I packed up my back and got back to work.

Some days....:(

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corerf posted this 19 March 2015

Any leading while shooting the 2.5 in group? Did accuracy improve over the course of fire or did it decline?

When you went to fire the 4-5 in groups was the bore in same condition as the 2.5 in session?

Have you tested the bhn of the bullet lot 24-48 hours after casting and also today or recently? Was there a big change in hardness?

If the bullets you cast for the small group were substantially softer you could have have a big difference btw sessions. Doubling group size would be attributed to shooter error if all other particulars were consistent. That's ok, I prefer it.

If not shooter error, then a variable has snuck in to fouls the works. Not sure if water dropping was employed so maybe aging is not much of a consideration.

I have in the past shot soft bullets that were aging and had better results than with the fully aged bullets. All conditions otherwise identical. From a bench,with a 1lb trigger, in a rest, it's hard to error heavily from a baseline accuracy level. I've gone back and shot with soft bullets and found better results, consistent results. That load needed softer alloy in my case and I adjusted. Leading increased as well with the aged bullets.

Not pointing a finger, just offering ideas on what could have doubled group size aside from shooter error. And shooter error is better than load/bullet problems all day. I like it when I make the group bigger, then I get to fix me, not an unknown variable like load data, process, etc.

2.5 offhand with a 6 inch barrel at 15 is pretty good!

Was that single action or DA shooting?

bTw: those are some good looking bullets!!!!

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Bongo Boy posted this 19 March 2015

Thanks for the input and suggestions. I honestly think it's all me--and there are a couple of reasons. First, I was taking time off work which stresses rather than relaxes me. Second, I was quite hungry by the time I got to the range, and that has never been a plus for my shooting. Third, I put down the 629 and picked up the Glock 20, which I generally shoot well. Those shots were positively awful--although these were first-time ever loads and they could be garbage.

So, first the bullets and loads.

All bullets were poured at the same time and from the same pot--that pot being probably a 50-60 lb melt and it's unlikely any significant lead was added to the pot over the course of casting 500 bullets, if any.

I have not ever tested lead hardness, so I don't know what these are, but again, they should all be equivalent. I expect they are somewhat on the soft side, since easing them into the sizer with a flat top punch leaves about 60% or so of the meplat 'polished'--so they're definitely responding to very minor pressure. My top punch surface is actually very slightly convex--not perfectly flat.

Based on poor memory, the small groups were obtained after shooting for a bit--maybe 60 rds or so--but they definitely deteriorated and I could see all kinds of signs I was tiring. Gun floating at a higher rate, less smooth floating, etc.

So, getting tired meant trying to hold the target even longer in the hopes of settling down, making things even worse.

Ah, back to things other than shooter. Leading. I cleaned the bore last night with a bore brush but found some minor leading at the muzzle (the only place I can see it). I brushed a bit more but not a lot. I think the bore today was probably in about the same shape as it was when I got the smaller groups last week, but I can't be sure. When I did get a light in there after cleaning the previous time, the bore looked like it was chromed--extremely bright and glass-smooth. It was noteworthy because I don't believe I've seen a barrel quite so finished.

This was strictly SA...I'm putting in a little SA practice but very little with this gun. It's hopefully never going to be pressed into sd duty and to me is more of a rest-it-on-the-bag and take your time kind of gun.

Fun with a capital F, tho. I'm going to chalk this up to 'wrong time to go shooting', and wait until I feel the time is truly mine. We'll see. Maybe I buy a hardness tester.

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delmarskid1 posted this 20 March 2015

There is never a wrong to go shooting. Sometimes there is a wrong time to shoot well. Sometimes when I'm not shooting as well as I'd like I cheat and use a rest until my confidence comes back. My wife got me a 5” 629 fr Christmas and I'm in love with both of them more every day. I threw a spring pack in it (revolver of course) and double action is a hoot with mild loads. I think I'm making them go at about 900 fps. I put up blank sheets of paper and step back about 10 paces and blast at them with out really using the sights. I just look at the target over the guns barrel and rip away.

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Bongo Boy posted this 24 March 2015

Executive Summary: One should allow shooting to stay fun.

Each and every time I find the fun factor low, I find the ego and pride factors high. A causal correlation. :)

The challenge is to observe the two at the same time.

Conclusion: Buckshot groups caused by poor attitude.

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Ed Harris posted this 31 March 2015

I agree, slight zinc contamination of less than 1% is unsightly, but harmless for ordinary utility use. Key is to use a thermometer when melting raw wheelweights into ingot and keep the heat within 730 +/-10 degs. F so you can skim the zinc weights off the top before they melt!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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billglaze posted this 25 April 2015

I guess I'm kind of echoing Joe, but I've shot the self-same Lyman 215 gr with a gas check since I bought the .44 Mag Smith in 1956.. Only shot cast with 24 gr. 2400; a real magnum load. Still have the pistol (a 5 screw Smith), and it's still tight and smooth as new. BTW: It's a 44 Magnum, not a model 29. They started calling and serial numbering as a Mod. 29 in 1957. (I keep my guns a long time, if I like them). In later years, I have backed down to 22 gr. 2400; got nervous when the manuals started calling 22 gr. as a max. This load also works great in my Desert Eagle; no malfunctions, no leading. However, I experienced moderate leading in a new Ruger S.A. in 41 Mag.; severe leading in a Smith .41 Mag. Ruger changed out the barrel; no argument. Smith, OTOH, said it was all my fault. (I can still see the roughness in the barrel; guess their service person suffers from near-sightedness) Typical, these days, I guess. Changed powders, (suggested in a magazine article) to 296; no help. Finally started putting a gas check on the bullet; end of problem in both revolvers. Back to 21 gr. 2400. Coward's way out, maybe, but, whatever works, works. Upside: Began working with James Sage; what a pleasant, co-operative gentleman. A whole separate story. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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imjimo posted this 23 December 2015

I don't know about that I have shot cast gc bullets in 357 mag 44 mag 45 lc and 454 casull most of them north of 1300 fps with out a leading problem .

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Bongo Boy posted this 16 September 2016

Well it's been a while and I've blown several hundred rounds downrange since. Seems the Keiths I've been casting are a bit small (and ugly) and the roundnose flat points just doing fine. So, H110 is on its way, finally, in quantity. 800X, what's left of it, will go into my garden as fertilizer, and I'll live to see another day of experimenting. Crimping has no clear impact on anything at all, lube has not clear impact on anything at all, and the only advantage of the Keith bullet seen so far is oh my god it does punch a nice clean hole in paper. Pretty sure I could crimp, not crimp, lube, not lube and results would be not impacted in the least little bit. The Keith mold has been the only expenditure I can think of since i started handloading that I'd consider a complete waste of money...since it's an ugly bullet to begin with IMO and doesn't do anything at all right compared to my RNFP, except s**k up a lot of lube which I personally feel is also a waste of time and effort. Elmer must have lived in a universe quite different from mine.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 September 2016

most of the ” keith swc ” molds i have used are not optimized for fit .

fit is king ... we think . usually.

not only are the bands not throat ( not barrel, please note ) .... snug fitting, but that large mass nose just hangs out there and is not supported by the rifling.

i don't fiddle with my pistols that much but still like at least 3 inches at 25 yards. ( bean can of angle ) ... my best keith types in any caliber have been throat snug and the nose feature shows a bit of rifling at the base of the nose. that of course reduces the sharpness of the target holes . in general i try to buy truncated cone molds now.

that are snug in throat ( g ) .

ken

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Bongo Boy posted this 23 September 2016

Without question, I can say this:

I like casting
I really enjoy handloading
I absolutely LOVE shooting, and
I can easily crumple up targets with crappy groups faster than my ego can bruise.

So. We move on down the road, order a few more 1000 primers, and call it good.