What's the priority in making an accurate cast handload?

15K Views
Last Post 30 August 2018

CBA Member

durant7 posted this 21 March 2015

New here but I have an itch to pursue better accuracy at 200y with my one CF gun and thinking it might be educational to shoot a few CBA benchrest matches this summer. Not to be competitive but to learn and if the bug bights.....

I have a bunch of moulds but my 30 cal list is short, an Ideal 31141. My bullets have been good enough to be very competitive in CLA (Metallic Silhouette Cowboy Lever Action) but there are times I wonder what went wrong when IMO I had a good break. Sadly, a 200y range is a 2 hour drive and winter in NH this year has limited outside activity. So here I am doing what I should NOT be doing, sitting inside, warm, on the computer.

As I do research, there are so many variables that lay ahead, what do I focus on if I want to develop a better 200y hand loaded bullet for a CBA match? 31141 has a BC of .220. A low value and higher is better. Browse FleaBay and find other .311 mould such as a 311299 which has a BC of .377. The bullet can, I would assume, be single loaded to avoid magazine detonation, and would bore ride with correct LOA. Would this be the first best building block in the foundation of a cast bullet with higher accuracy potential? But, is this the right direction to take? Yet another mould? There are so many other variables to explore first with the .31141. What's first? I have read so much my head hurts. Here are a few.<>Manage alloy better, put 20 ingots and melt them to the IDENTICAL alloy, and then pour them to ensure I have one variable eliminated. Today I use ingots which I have created by collecting range lead to WW to whatever I find and now 300 ingots stashed away.<>Get a higher BC mould. Higher is better at 200y from a 30-30.<>Using the pencil method, use the hardest ingots I can collect from my stash and melt them to one alloy. I don't own a hardness tester...read enough on that.<>Sizing. I have sizers from .310 to .313. yet my current 300 load ready bullet inventory is all sized to .311 and GC. Bullet drops at .312 to .313 and is not round or perfectly aliened...and I have worked hard on that. I am told Lyman moulds are not perfect.<>Crimp. Taper, factory, or don't crimp at all. Too much crimp negatively impacts the driving bands. More crimp assures more consistent powder burn.<>Neck tension & turning...sorry, not going there for a 30-30.<>Case prep. That is easy. All the same headstamp, trimmed, flash hole deburred, weight sorted...I feel I have that in the bag on a RP case. Of course a few bags of Factory New...defeats my interest to be frugal but I understand penny wise, pound foolish.<>Powders...Unique has worked, I own it...seems like a slippery slope to start buying a pound of 5+ powders to experiment...laddering each...mix in the above variables...my head hurts....to truly change one variable at a time the testing would be beyond what I have time to accomplish. I find a classic case of analysis paralysis and I spend more time thinking about it and less time doing it. What would the accuracy veterans work on first? Should the buy bight, a 30 cal bolt gun could take my efforts with the 30-30 to the next level next year.

JD in NH

Attached Files

83 Comments

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 21 March 2015

Bullet fit is EVERYTHING! A good mold which casts round bullets, with square bases which fits the throat without requiring sizing is key. Start by casting your chamber and getting a custom.mold cut which fits gets excellent results easily and right away without frustrating yourself in multiple iterations of mediocre mass produced molds which work better as trot line weights.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 21 March 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3454>durant7

Ed makes the point I consider most valuable. Chamber casting and bore slugging are helpful. the result from those is to get a bullet size that fits your rifle.

Bullet to throat fit with a sliding fit gives bullets a stable start that enhances accuracy.

Actually, you don't need chamber casting or slugging if your sense of touch is working and you try a series of bullet size diameters till you find one that fits. Your variety of bullet size dies will cover the range. Find the bullet diameter that slides in the throat. A big mistake is to to this with lubricated bullets. Do this with clean bullets because bullet lube does not ever compensate for bullet size being correct with a bullet slide fit in the chamber throat.

If your barrel is really screwed with groove to groove diameter that is inconsistent or larger than throat diameter anywhere, dump the barrel and get a now one if you want target accuracy results. G to G and L to L don't matter unless you have a poor barrel. The throat /bullet size fit is the largest that will function and then the barrel will size the bullets when you shoot. You can do this all by feel chambering a round with an un-lubed bullet.

There are different schools on bore riding bullet noses. Having a nose section that bore rides and a driving band section that fits G to G is two critical fit areas if you allow them to be. CONTROL YOUR THINKING. You can work on that kind of fit or you can ignore it and concentrate on throat fit with a non bore riding nose bullet design. Personally I choose to have one critical fit area instead of two and get bullets to fit the throat. That is your choice and your efforts can lead to either being successful.

Not believing that bore condition effects accuracy is an error. The finest match barrels are honed. Learn the difference between honing and polishing by definition. You can do either yourself to a mediocre barrel but I consider polishing the least marring and most beneficial with cast bullets. Honing will lessen tight spots, but I would select a better barrel that only needs polishing to work well with cast.

Consider the polishing method I have posted on this forum: http://castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8364&forumid=63

It works for me and many others have reported success with the simple method and materials I describe in the post. It takes faith, some people never believe anybody else's success unless statistical analytical scientific research is thrown at it. I am telling you polishing works, if you don't believe that, it won't work as well for you as it does for somebody else that believes polishing does work. Aside from the physics, polishing a bore for cast bullets improves your psychology of shooting and makes the barrel easier to clean too.

Gary

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA President

John Alexander posted this 22 March 2015

Durant7,I suspect you are beginning to feel like you are drinking from a fire hose. Go back and read Ken's post. There are only a very few factors that really count for accuracy levels above 1.5 MOA and unless you have a very exceptional Marlin 30-30 it is going to take awhile to get to that level. There are a lot of things that aren't perfect you can worry about but most of them don't amount to a hill of beans.

As several have already said fit is the most important factor, but bullet design is next. Not all bullet designs are created equal. Ed's approach involving getting a custom bullet for your individual gun is good advice but it is also possible to shoot as well in unaltered production rifles with factory molds of a good design and fitted to your rifle. The 299 is a good place to start if your twist will stabilize it.

Here are a half dozen things NOT to worry about until you are averaging groups of 2 inches at 200 yards.

Crimp - crimp can be important for pistol ammunition and magazine rifles, and in only a few other instances for single loaded rifles. You can look a long time at a CBA match looking for a crimp.
Sorting bullets by weight if your 31141 bullets don't vary more than 1.0 grains.
Weighing powder to the nearest tenth of a grain or to three tenth for that matter.
Bullets somewhat out of round or mold halves offset a .001” or a bit more. It's not ideal but they will shoot 1MOA if everything else is right.
Barrel roughness -- very rough barrels will shoot CBs very well if everything else is OK (barrel with consistent dimensions from throat to muzzle. A little choke is ok and may even help.) Polishing may make cleaning easier.
Variation in muzzle velocity -- this has a very poor correlation with group size in almost any reasonable load. > There are dozens more useless things that that some shooters do that should be on this list but six above are some of the more tempting ones NOT to worry about.

Two more suggestions -- First, if you haven't already, shoot several groups at 100 yards with good quality jacketed bullets and a load that works to see what is a reasonable goal for you and your rifle with cast bullets. If these aren't as good as you hoped you may want to try reiieving the forend and magazine tube so they don't bind and mess things up as your Marlin's barrel heats. M.W. Curtess or other, can suggest how.

Second, join the CBA and examine the match results in the Fouling Shot to see what bullets, powders, and loads work in factory rifles (military or hunting rifle classes) in the real world shooting in front of witnesses. The $17 investment in a year's digital CBA membership will produce a better return on investment than most of the other things you will be tempted to spend money on. Good luck. John

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 22 March 2015

Given the high cost of new factory production molds from Lyman, RCBS or Saeco, etc., and considering even with careful selection that chances are no better than 50-50 that your cherry-cut mass-production mold will cast a bullet which will “fit” without resorting to bumping, Beagling or extensive alloy experimentation.

By the time you go through the frustration of trying several production molds without success, you will be money ahead with much less time spent in frustration by simply doing your due diligence, asking questions and taking advantage of the expertise of others to make a good choice and do it correctly the first time.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 23 March 2015

Ed''s advice should be carved in stone .

Fit of the bullet in the throat is everything ,and finding a mass producted cherry made mould that fits is like drawing the winning ticket at a big lottery.

After having wasted time and money I ordered custom aluminum gang molds from

LBT , Accurate Moulds and Ranchdog moulds. The people who makes them know their trade.,and work to satisfy your personal needs.

If you are clever with the use micrometers chamber casting and such operations , good for you, I am not, so I shoot the larger bullets that chamber efforlessly in the rifle and get the best accuracy ,that my old eyes can give me.

If your rifle is a standard Marlin 30-30 with a standard throat ,in any type of rifling ,microgrooved or Ballard I would pass you my solutions ,I got two six cavity Lee with Ranchdogs bullet designs , one is gas checked ,and the other plain based.

And for my intended purpose , that is plinking from offhand at 60 yards, the plain base is enough.

Another bullet ,with a conical nose and relatively short OAL lenght ,that can be easily loaded in many different 30 and 303 rifles is the 168 Harris 762x39 Nei bullet , as made by many mold makers .It should do well in the bolt actions.Fitting the tapered nose in the various throats.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 24 March 2015

Here's my advice.I understand that you're shooting a Marlin 33 in 30-30, with Lyman 31141.Cast some good looking bullets. Inspect them, pick the good ones, don't weigh them.Put on gas checks, size to .310", any reasonable lube.If you're going to load the magazine, you have to crimp. If single loaded, no crimp.Single loaded is mpre accurate.Find the max OAL either way, where a loaded ctg does NOT de-bullet when you remove it from the chamber.Any primer, LP or LR.Load ~9 Unique if you don't have IMR 4227 or A#9.Better with 14.5/IMR 4227.Better with 13/A#9Shoot.Measure groups, WRITE IT DOWN!Change sized dia AND OAL, powder charge in half grain steps.Don't slug anything or measure anything or buy a custom mold or polish the barrel now.This recipe will get your gun shooting <2” 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages, if anything will.If not, post to this forum and I'll get you there.A Marlin 336 in 30-30 will shoot <2", but not much < ever. (We'll now hear about the 3/4” 336 somebody's aunt's boyfriend shoots.)

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA President

John Alexander posted this 24 March 2015

As with some of the other good advice already given Joe's recipe is a good place to start -- especially if you don't want to spend any money right now.

I will add one suggestion to Joe's post. After you have picked out the good bullets from your batch, save the ones that are wrinkled and have rounded edges, not the gross defects of course. After you start getting good groups, load those “bad bullets” and shoot them in alternative groups with your very best using the same sizing, OAL, load, etc. and let us know how the groups compared. That would be a great contribution to the forum.

I forgot to mention earlier but I noticed that you have a sense of humor -- good. A sense of humor is valuable for anyone but especially for cast bullet shooters. It helps to reduce the chance of hypertension, depression, and possibly apoplexy. It may also reduce the incident of random damage to nearby inanimate objects and small livestock.

John

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

durant7 posted this 27 March 2015

Sorry I went dark there for a bit. Work and now some car trouble have pushed my hobby lower in the priority list. Darn it! Do you have to be retired to chase casting as a hobby? Anyway, I hope to stop typing and start shooting at an informal 100y off hand shoot Saturday. I suspect mostly Service Rifle folks will show up but I will drag my silly lever gun to the line with cast bullets and see what I can muster. You learn more by doing and talking to others I think.

As for keeping a log and photos. I do kinda do that on my blog. Below is an example of a post with my struggle with my 44 Rem Mag. I had dreams of one gun for both CLA and PCCLA. I tossed in the towel after the 30-30 demonstrated to me it is far superior for the 200y game and there was no reason to http://durant7.blogspot.com/2013/05/44-rem-mag-take-three-shes-back.html>Struggle so with the 44 Rem Mag. I will start an entry on my 30-30.

So, need to buy a car, load 60 bullets and be at the range by 8:00 Saturday...oh...and Saturday is my wife's birthday. I think something may not happen. Wonder what it will be....life gets in the way of shooting sometimes.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

muley posted this 27 March 2015

unless she really has to go out for breakfast on her birthday, go shoot in the morning

and take her out for dinner. if she doesn't like roses, use the money saved and buy

lead/linotype. enjoy your shooting.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

durant7 posted this 05 April 2015

Happy Easter or Passover to all. I have a small window and I wanted to express my appreciation for the input and let you know I do shot my gun. I am intending to get my lever gun benched at some point but time has not been on my side. I went to a match last weekend which was, from what I can tell, an early fun match the Service Rifle types put on to see if they can attract other shooters. So there I was with my lever gun, new bullets, new front aperture next to AR15s, M14, Springfields. Not a cast bullet in the bunch. Ok, there was one shooting buddy there with a 38-55 but he shoots purchased cast bullets! I had hoped to work on my zero before the match began but that was not in the cards. The line was cleared and I was called to the line, relay 1, target #5. I had 5 minutes to find the best zero I could shooting off hand without a spotter. Them 30 call holes at 100 y in the snow are itty bitty.

I used some 31141 I cast 4 years ago and sized and GC to .311. My brass was all trimmed to length of 2.030". Case was not crimped and had an overall length of 2.555". 9 grains of Unique which I accepted drops from a Dillon powder measure which is not very exact. Safe but not exact. I have not picked up a slower powder yet. H4198 seems to be popular. For now I need to pick one slow burning powder and compare to Unique. I am open to suggestions. I do see I will run through a pound much faster of a slow burning powder than I will or would with Unique.

So, net net, the bullets are not key holing and seem to show promise. Then again, BR is an entirely different game from off hand. Too bad I only put 19 on paper. Does not compute but it is what it is. All part of the learning process of counting shots!

Attached Files

jud-2.jpg

Liked by

CBA Member

R. Dupraz posted this 05 April 2015

Thanks for posting the results on your first time out. Looks to me like you have things pretty well in hand. Pretty dang good first offhand target I would say.

I like your group in the black. Those few high and low shots in the white indicate mostly just a timing issue which can be fixed with some practice. As opposed to the shots being scattered all over.

And yes, it does help to develop a system to keep track of shots fired. I think it's safe to say that we have all been there at one time or another.

As to powders with cast bullets, I will suggest that some time you take a look at IMR 4227. I have been using this powder for a long time in a 22 K Hornet, Marlin CB 38-55, 30-06 Spring field, .308, 7.62x51 mauser and most recently .30 Herret. All with 12-16 grns with very good results. The exception is 20 grns in the 38-55 which I use for monthly lever action silhouette matches.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 April 2015

i am enjoying your reports .. keep 'em coming .

just a couple things :

1) for me myself when playing with cast bullets , i perceive that i am shooting against muself ; as in trying to do better with brilliant insight and ... a little luck . if you get teensy groups right away, it might get boring and you would have to buy another gun .

2) looking at your chamber upsets , i think that the large diameter just in front of your brass is really just a long chamber neck, and not ” freebore . also i think your lead bullet probably expands to fill that space at firing, but then gets swaged back down as it enters the rifling ... hopefully perfectly concentric but ...sigh ... not very likely .

it would seem that this is bad ... but looking over the last 40 years of testing by the CBA and other cast shooters , the list of positively proven facts is a very short one .

it would be interesting if you could pre/breech seat your bullets further down the barrel ... past the chamber neck ... there has been some discussion on breech seating just recently on this forum ; although not sure with lever action rifles ... ( g ) .

just some random thoughts . ken

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

durant7 posted this 19 April 2015

Ok, I am drinking the coolaid of neck sizing only and bought a Redding 30-30 Neck sizing die. My understanding, this would enable me to improve the concentricity of my bullet to the bore of the rifle. Indeed, when I went to see if my new 2.591” rounds would cycle, it left 5 out of 6 nice land marks unlike earlier tests where just two would engrave the bullet.

So, off I went. 9.5g of Unique, neck sized all the fired brass and set the bullet in its new “as far out as it will go and still cycle” length of 2.591. The photo below shows the first case, as fired from the gun. Second, post Neck sizing. A small kiss from a Lee Universal Neck expander case and then, in with a .313 sized bullet and it all looks good!

See photo below. What else should I be working on? I feel like I am changing too many variables.

Attached Files

Neck.jpg

Liked by

CBA President

John Alexander posted this 20 April 2015

Sometimes accuracy is good with some bullet designs when only 3 or 4 land marks appear on a dummy load. I think this is usually caused by offset mold blocks making two places where a land may fit and not touch the bullet if positioned just right/wrong.

It is amazing what you can see with a bore scope. The last Savage 12 I bought (and probably ever will buy) had some tapers to full land height more than a land width ahead of those on the other side. Amazing that you could get a reamer aligned that crooked without the shaft rubbing on the back of the chamber. I sent it back to Savage and described the defect. They deemed it within their spec and sent it back.

In a way they were right the darned thing averages about .75 moa for 5 shot groups with Sierra MKs. I haven't been able to get it up to speed with CBs. A candidate for a tad of rethroating if I was in a better mood.

John

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 22 April 2015

How does this rifle shoot with factory ammunition? If it won't shoot jacketed, it won't shoot cast. (George Schoyen)

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 15 June 2015

If you have reasonable sights on this gun, I'd shoot a set of 5 shot 100 yard groups with jacketed bullets. If the groups average 2” or less, back to cast. If not I'd look to the gun, at the Marlin Forum, here: http://www.marlinowners.com/336/>http://www.marlinowners.com/336/ The lever guns have accurizing lore that I know nothing about, I do know that Mic Micpherson had a business accurizing lever guns. It's a whole science to itself. Here's a quote from the Marlin Forum:

"I would also suggest looking into tips on accurizing a Marlin lever gun. Having been the owner of a Marlin that gave less than stellar accuracy, I understand how frustrating it can be. Especially when I own others that are incredibly accurate. Common issues are often heat related binding problems. The common culprits are barrel bands, magazine tube or fore ends binding. The easiest way to determine if these are issues is to take them all off the gun. Remove the band's, mag tube and fore end then shoot the gun like that. Rest the receiver (not the barrel) on sand bags while shooting and also use one under the toe of the stock. If accuracy improves significantly you know at least one of the parts removed was causing problems. I won't go into details here on what to do about it but the basics involve relieving stress points. There are numerous posts here on what to do if you use the search function."

I've had a few lever guns, and shot a few more. My impression, and it ain't a fact, is that average 5 shot 100 yard group size under 2” is not common, and that 336 guns shoot way more accurately than 94s. 5 shot groups, not 11 or 7, shoot 5 shot groups.Shoot more, cast bullets and shoot at least 50 at a sitting; 100 is better. You need experience with this gun from the bench. If it won't shoot jacketed, it won't shoot cast, no matter what you do.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Paul Pollard posted this 15 June 2015

Your last photo shows tipping or key holing. If your twist is 1:12, what is causing the instability? The 311041 is about .980” long and should stabilize, according to the Greenhill formula.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 08 February 2016

looking at your chamber upset image , i think a problem exists with that large empty space just ahead of your case neck .

i suspect the bullet to some extent expands into that space when fired and never quite recovers concentricity ...

my fixits are a bit silly and/or not practical :::

make brass on a lathe that leaves no big space there ...a longer neck. 360 brass will work but won't be springy ... not strong enough for warmer loads .

set back and rechamber the barrel to cast bullet chamber ....

throat the chamber so that you can use the longest bullets you can feed single shot ..... the idea is to have a lower per centage of the bullet distorted by that big space ...

then you might consider trading that desirable marlin with 6 grooves to someone for a 308 bolt rifle ...probably go even up .... and your molds will still work ...

if i wuz going to fight it a while longer i would get a mold for a long bore ride bullet ... saeco and rcbs have that style ...and seat it way out ....you could probably get some of that style from some of the members here just to try .

powder choice ... if it ignites cleanly ...won't cut your groups in half ....

just some thoughts

ken

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 08 February 2016

gp:: that little space is interesting .... every 22 rimfire rifle has a little ring of lead built up just in front of the case ...it might even help keep further bullets from distorting .... and don't forget they shoot 1/2 moa forever .... dang those things ...

could we cut a little ring of steel and press it in just ahead of the case neck then re-throat to smooth it up ??

my super rook which will set all kinds of records and in which all loads will shoot beautifully ...... will not have that little ring space ... my only worry is that i will be asked not to bring it to a competition event ...

ken

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 09 February 2016

It is normal for the neck portion of the chamber to be about .020” longer than a max. case. While I have seen very long necks more than .050” and in several instances in Krag rifles and Russian M91/30s which were 0.1” longer or more than a max. case, which isn't recommended.

An excessively long neck is NOT the same as freebore. It is just a long neck. A freebore is a cylindrical ball seat beyond the “second shoulder” or mouth transition between the case neck diameter and the bullet diameter “ball seat” which precedes the forcing cone at the origin of rifling.

Excessively long chamber necks which are commonly found in wartime production .303 British and 7.62 Russian rifles may cause problems with the bullet base upsetting to fill the available excess neck length, and having to be squeezed down again to enter the smaller throat. This can cause pressure spikes.

When I was at Ruger the company received an order for No.3 and No.1 barreled actions in .303 British. These were assembled with .30 cal. barrels which had been rejected as air-gaging “oversize” for normal .30 cal. production, the tolerance being +0.0015” -0.0000 on diameters. This meant that the barrels used for that order ran .,3095-.310 groove diameter, which in fact worked fine. I tested a variety of military and sporting .303 British ammunition in pressure test barrels having normal .303x313 barrels common for the .303 British versus using a pressure test barrel chambered the same reamer in a US Cal. .30 Ball M2 4-groove .300x.308 blank. The pressure rise firing SAAMI Reference and WRA Co. 1943 MkVIIz ammunition in the “.30 cal.” barrel was about +3500 cup, within design limits for a sound No.4 rifle and in fact less than the +5000 cup observed in the SAAMI dimensioned .303 British test barrel after having LENGTHENED THE NECK by .15", about half of bullet diameter, so that the bullet base would likely upset into the overly long neck and then have to be squeezed down again. The MkVII bullet was designed to upset easily to compensate for worn barrels, but this is a two-edged sword if chambers are excessively sloppy.

My own .303 target rifles are chambered to this wartime WRA Co. print as used for Lend-Lease production and later revised 1953, which became the SAAMI-dimensioned chamber.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files