I bought a new Lee 200 grs .30 mould. The result was very poor , only flyers at 100 meters.The charge was oke , like with my old mould.The mould drops bullits with nose size .294.Return to Lee for inspection is to expensif from The Netherlands .Have somebody expirience like me??
Expirience Lee 200 grs mould
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- Last Post 14 November 2015
onondaga
posted this
05 May 2015
The Lee 309-200-R has a long nose riding section that should cast at .300” if you are an expert bullet caster using an alloy with 2% Tin for fill out.
Cast hot enough and fast enough so that your bullets are slightly velvety or slightly frosty on the surface. That condition lets you know you are getting best fill out. Shiny bullets will be small. You should be dropping bullets from the mold 3 times a minute and knowing what is in your alloy helps. 625 F. with a thermometer helps too.
Saying your charge is “OK” is not enough information. Your load ballistic pressure should be 10% less than your alloy strength in pounds per square inch to be in the accuracy window with cast bullets.
That is a gas check mold you have and your bullets should be sized/ checked lubricated at at least .310” for almost any 30 caliber rifle.
The .294” nose you are getting could very well be caused by casting method, temperature and alloy selection. This is definitely NOT an easy to cast beginner bullet mold. It is long and heavy and needs skillful casting to come out well.
You could have just started out wrong also. Did you chamber cast or pound cast to determine the throat dimension of your rifle. Mold selection is important to fit the throat for accuracy. Small bullets will shoot all over the place. Many rifles in 30 cal need bullet molds designed for the .303 Brit to fit large chamber throats in 30 cal rifles. All mine do.
Gary
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grouch
posted this
06 May 2015
I haven't tried the Lee 30-200gr mold. It has a long “bore riding” section, and yours is pretty usual,too small. I've had some excellent results from Lee's 312155 mold, very likely because of its tapered nose. We all have our superstitions, and I favor molds with a long bearing and short unsupported nose. The long nose that goes wobbling down the barrel ahead of the driving bands can't be doing any good. Most of Lee's molds use the same configuration of driving bands and just extend the nose to add weight. For what it's worth, I've had some good results with Lee's 309150 and 309170 molds. You might want to have a look at Lead Bullets Technology and Night Owl Enterprises. Best of luck going forward. Grouch
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cast367
posted this
06 May 2015
Grouch,My old 200 grs mould works exelent , good support in the barrel. The new mould drops smaller, .294 What you wrote ,wobbling. When I put the nose in the forend of the barrel , NO SUPPORT. I cast 6 years a lot K without problems . The new one is wrong, to small, simpel.Shipping to the Lee factory is to expensif from Holland to USA and return. Cast 367
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grouch
posted this
06 May 2015
Yes, I do understand. It would be too expensive from here too. And you're right - the nose is just too small. Happens often. Grouch
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Ken Campbell Iowa
posted this
08 May 2015
if you have a friend with a lathe, he could bore the nose bigger ... if no lathe, you could still improve the nose by grinding out a bigger ” lump ” ....0.300 would be a start . cast a bullet around a small drill bit or tap ... put grinding compound on just the nose ... put in cavity and spin with hand drill .... this won't be pretty, but you need to get that nose supported . best of luck. oh, what does your grooved part measure ?? it should be as big as your throat ...
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cast367
posted this
08 May 2015
Ken Campbell, The measure of the backside of the bullit is .309. I think oke.
Cast 367
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Hamish
posted this
08 May 2015
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/LeementingKitDocumentation.pdf
Or
You can put foil tape on one or both mold block faces an carefully trim the bullet profile out to cast an enlarged bullet.
No, neither choice is optimum, but should get you a usable mold.
Stick with Accurate, NOE, LBT, MP, or other reputable makers rather than roll the dice with Lee.
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gpidaho
posted this
09 May 2015
cast367 As Ken C said just enlarge the nose of the bullet mould. It's not hard to do, it worked well for me on the first try. I took off the sprue plate and pored lead threw a wing nut, painted the bullet with a mix of automotive water mix valve compound and toothpaste held the mould closed and spun the coated bullet to enlarge the cavity. It's easier than it sounds. You might as well give it a go as the mould is junk as is. With bands at .309 it shouldn't hurt if they get opened a bit also. Good luck GP
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Cary Gunn
posted this
27 May 2015
Howdy Cast367,
I, too, had a Lee C309-200-R mould than threw a bullet with an undersized “bore-riding” nose portion. In my case, the bullets ran .297- to .299-inch at various places on the nose. There was no place on the nose that reached the minimum .300-inch diameter it should have cast.
The driving-band portion and the gas check shank on the bullets were fine, but that undersized nose allowed way too much wobbling in the bore for decent accuracy.
I solved the problem by lapping just the nose portion of the mould. As other threads on this forum will explain, lapping is an easy process involving casting a bullet with the sprue plate open and a brass 5/8-inch O.D. nut (or whatever size is appropriate) placed on top of the mold block with the hole in the nut centered over the sprue hole in the block.
When the mold is filled by pouring lead through the hole in the nut, so the lead fills not only mold cavity but also the nut resting atop it, you've produced a lap than can be coated with a fine cutting compound and twisted in the mould using a wrench to turn the nut.
I've used Remington “40X Bore Cleaner,” a liquid containing a very mild abrasive, which I dribbled onto just the nose portion of the lap, then placed the lap in the mould, closed it, and turned the lap by hand using a socket wrench.
I've also used a cutting compound made from powdered Dremmel polishing compound mixed with “Ed's Red” gun oil. And, I suspect there are many other polishing/cutting pastes that would also work. Just stay away from anything containing a course grit, and be careful to restrict the cutting compound only to those areas of the mould you wish to enlarge.
Also, it's safer to rotate the lap by hand, checking results frequently by casting a bullet and measuring it. Some casters use an electric drill to turn the lap, but I'm not that courageous.
Depending on the amount of enlargement needed, you may need to make a second lap, or even a third, if the previous laps stop cutting.
The worst of the moulds I've dealt with needed only about half the amount of enlargement yours needs, but I've easily increased the nose of a Lee C309-200-R from .297-.299 to .300-.302 using the above method.
Your mould could likely be fixed in the same fashion, it'll just take longer.
You might also contact Lee by phone or internet, and question them regarding their repair policy. It seems to me that a mould as badly out of sinc as your should be replaced at the manufacturer's expense. Maybe they'll at least pay for shipping to return your repaired mould, or a new replacement, to you.
I think it would be worth a call to Lee, and I'd be interested in the company's response to your inquiry. I bet other forum members would be interested, too.
Hope you get the problem worked out.
Happy trails,
-- Cary Gunn --
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mtngun
posted this
28 May 2015
Your load ballistic pressure should be 10% less than your alloy strength in pounds per square inch to be in the accuracy window with cast bullets.
A common
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the 1422 X BHN rule of thumb advocated by Lee and others (I'm not sure who the original source is). I've heard one version that it was simply a rule of thumb based on what shot well in someone's personal experience. Another version is that it was derived from the formula for calculating BHN. Either way, it does not represent the actual strength of bullet alloys, which spans the range of 3000 - 15,000 psi.
My personal rule of thumb for bullet alloys = use heat treated wheelweight for everything. :fire
Otherwise your suggestions are great. :) Obviously a 0.294” bore rider is too small. His 0.309” body is on the small side, too.
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onondaga
posted this
28 May 2015
I use the Lee Hardness chart for plain based bullets ultimate strength. and also gas check bullet loads or the BPI Original Filler loads, both significantly extend the load pressure range of the alloys I use significantly beyond the ultimate strength in psi of the alloy.
The 10% below alloy strength in psi is the beginning of a practical range to about the full strength of the alloy. That is a recommendation from Lee. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 go much higher than Lee. The Lyman #2 alloy I use ultimate strength is 21,140 psi. by the Lee chart. The loads I use with gas checked bullets or plain based bullets with BPI filler go 38,000 40,000 psi in 375 H&H, 458 WM and 500 S&W Mag. rifles with my cast bullets. I don't know where you got 3,000 - 15,000 psi as bullet strength values but none of my literature supports your low numbers for the alloy I hunt with.
Your bullet fit and barrel condition also effect a limit, None of the limits leave me under powered for hunting dangerous game and delivering 1,200 to 1.500 foot pounds on impact to the game at the ranges I hunt, example 200 yards for Black Bear.
You sound that your making an argument that cast bullets are wimpy and slow. The suggestions from Lee or others are just that...suggestions. I believe #2 Alloy cast bullets are better and safer for hunting black Bear than any jacketed bullet load in 45 or 50 cal. rifle that I hunt Bear with.
I have found the Lee and Lyman recommendations usable and I go a lot higher with gas checked bullets and BPI filler loads, but would not recommend that for beginners. My barrels are all polished and every bullet I shoot has a sliding fit to the chamber throat. That kind of fit and barrel finish also extends the pressure range of cast bullet alloys, beginners usually haven't even heard of polishing and bullet fit. They should stay lower in pressure than I go . When they don't it is usually pretty disappointing in the accuracy department for them and every body else that doesn't size bullets to the throat and polish their bore for cast bullets..
Gary
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mtngun
posted this
28 May 2015
The Lyman #2 alloy I use ultimate strength is 21,140 psi. by the Lee chart.
If the Lee chart is claiming 21,140 psi ultimate strength then the Lee chart is mistaken.
I get my numbers either from the STRENGTH = 500 X BHN rule of thumb, or from actual tested data supplied by manufacturers and engineering reference books. Solder manufacturers are a good source of strength data, here's
Here's a chart that I made years ago based on solder data from the Vulcan Lead & Alchemy Castings website (I just checked and they've redone their website and their properties data no longer seems to be posted :X ). It would put your Lyman #2 alloy at 6000 - 7000 psi. The 500X formula predicts 7500 psi tensile (not ultimate) strength for Lyman #2.
 around 7500 psi but night not break in two until 15,000 psi (if you were pulling on the bullet rather than pushing on it). Either way, that's still not 21,140 psi.</p>
<p>Agree that bullet fit and barrel condition are hugely important. :)</p>
<p>Gary said “You sound that your making an argument that cast bullets are wimpy and slow.” Actually, my pet interest is shooting cast at high velocity (2500+ fps) . :fire</p>
<p>There was an article in TFS about 11 years ago where the author compiled all the load data from CBA matches, used Quickload to estimate the load PSI, and compared that to the BHN of the alloy. What the author concluded (going from my memory) was that most serious competitors were were ignoring the 1422X recommendation and instead using hard alloys like lino or heat treated wheelweight. </p>
<p>Another interpretation of the 1422X recommendation is that it gives the pressure required to obturate the bullet. But any bullet alloy will yield (obturate) at normal smokeless pressures, i.e. a 30 BHN bullet will begin to yield around 15,000 psi. However while an undersize bullet is waiting for pressure to climb to obturation levels, it is already being gas cut, so unless you have instantaneous obturation such as with black powder and pure lead, then relying on obturation to provide a gas seal is an “iffy” proposition IMHO. </p>
<p>As best I can tell, someone came up with the 1422X rule by backing it out of the formula for measuring BHN, and assumed that it had some deep meaning. It doesn't. </p>
<p>My personal rule = size the bullet so that it seals even without obturation, use a hard tacky lube that functions as an o-ring to help seal, and use hard bullets for nearly everything. I.e., for SAAMI 30-06 chambers I commonly size to 0.314” and have gone as high as 0.318)
By the way Gary, if I remember correctly you posted in another thread that you had some heart problems a while back and had not been able to do much shooting? Has your health improved to allow you to get return to the range?
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onondaga
posted this
28 May 2015
Here are the hardness charts I use, you look pretty out voted on psi by chart data to me:
Also, if you have bullets that are significantly gas cutting before they obdurate, that is simply an indication you are using the wrong alloy for your application and the bullets don't fit well either. The harder the alloy is, the more critical the fit is, is something I postulate. Ignoring that also greatly effects group size in my experience.
Gary
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mtngun
posted this
30 May 2015
Here are the hardness charts I use, you look pretty out voted on psi by chart data to me:
Also, if you have bullets that are significantly gas cutting before they obdurate, that is simply an indication you are using the wrong alloy for your application and the bullets don't fit well either. The harder the alloy is, the more critical the fit is, is something I postulate. Ignoring that also greatly effects group size in my experience.
Gary Gary, the page at your link is a search for “Lee hardness chart.” I previously suggested that Lee's formula seems to be in error.
Here's a simple example -- the Lee formula says that a 31 BHN bullet has a strength of 44,651 psi. If you have any feel for the strengths of common materials -- structural steel yields at 36,000 psi, for example -- the Lee claim is obviously bonkers.
For a sanity check, the 
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onondaga
posted this
30 May 2015
You do disagree with me because you disagree, missed or ignore the definition where the Lee book defines how it uses psi for alloy ultimate strength and the qualifier of permanent distortion of bullets is used in the Lee definition for alloy ultimate strength and expresses that in psi for the purposes of the book. This is the center of an old argument that we fall on opposite sides of. You are agreeing about a different kind of psi in a different definition outside the Lee book application. The book makes a clear point of this matter.
I don't think it will sway you to agree with me, but consider studying the chapters in the Lee Book on pressure and alloy selection. I have personally duplicated and proven the Lee experiments based on alloy strength where permanent deformation by psi relating to load pressure has a location on the sweet spot of accuracy. This completely proves Lee correct to me by my practical and repeated duplication of the Lee testing method and is why I disagree with you. Other casters that actually study and follow the methods in Modern Reloading Second Edition by Richard Lee will also disagree with you.
Gary
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mtngun
posted this
30 May 2015
Well Gary, I don't have the Lee book and don't plan to get it since I have never been a fan of Lee products, though I do appreciate a few of his experiments, like the time he shot bullets into his swimming pool to check for gas cutting.
Rather than continuing to hijack this thread about a defective Lee product, I'll try my best to find time to submit an article for TFS debunking the 1422X old wives tale. The CBA is supposed to be about advancing the science of cast bullet, not advancing old wives tales. :)
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onondaga
posted this
30 May 2015
There is some Lee haters that reject the proven theories of Richard Lee. I admire his logic and his thorough work. I don't believe Lee has any defective product designs either. I have also proven the Lee Classic Cast Turret Press and Lee dies have better self centering and produce ammunition with better concentricity than the Forster Co-ax or any other press does. Nobody listeners to that either if they, like you, don't have many or any Lee Products and only see them as cheap.
I still recommend the book to you if you want your groups smaller with cast bullets.
Gary
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cheatermk3
posted this
11 June 2015
Another(lengthy but well worth it) mould-lapping technique:
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Dirtybore
posted this
30 August 2015
The problem I have is during a casting session, that same bullet mold will at some point start dropping oversize bullets. I check to make sure the mold halves ar lined up and daylight can't be seen between the blocks each time I re-lose the blocks. Granted, if a small bit of lead gets where it doesn't belong, the mold will make bigger bullets so I make darn sure this isn't taking place. Yet, inveriably at some point, that darn mold will start dropping oversize bullets. It's a real @&%@ when you discover at the range that some of your loaded cartridges that won't chamber. I've even sized the bullets and then discovered that the nose riding portion was too fat. It's enough to drive a good man to drink.
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onondaga
posted this
30 August 2015
Making the same mistake repeatedly only means you should check your work more and realistically look at your technique..
Getting splatter on mold faces making bullets larger is generally attributed dumping sprue, ingots or bullets into the pot when the mold is nearby and open. Just stop that and your problem will vanish.
Gary
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Singleshot S.A.
posted this
09 September 2015
Yes cheatermk3, I need to do excatly that with a little Saeco mold that I have.
As for Lee stuff, I started using it 12 years ago as a born again shooter, simply because it was affordable to me. I can't remember ever having a problem with anything, even the cheap little C frame that I use for sizing. I have the 200g .309, 180g .309 and the 160g .309 and the 160 and 200 both shoot exceptionally well in our 200 yd comp. Never got around to dirtying the 180g. I have far more expensive molds, but these work fine for me and are easy to use. Unfortunately I guess that with mass production of anything these days we will get an occasional dud. Hope it works out for you cast367. Cheers, S/S S.A.
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gpidaho
posted this
11 September 2015
And for another Lee 200gr. mould, Just ordered today, the Lee C358-200-RF now in 6cav. Available at Titan Reloading. Also ordered the C312-155 in 6cav. Great to see some 6cav rifle moulds being produced by Lee. I'm looking forward to trying the 358 in my 35Rem and 357 Handi and hope it will work in my GP-100 revolver. Gp
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Dirtybore
posted this
12 November 2015
It appears that I had just the opposite experience with Lee's 30 caliber 200 gr bullet mould. The darn thing at some unknown point during a casting session, will start dropping bullets that are large and will not chamber. I've stopped using that mould and switched to the Lyman #311299, 200 gr mould. Granted, it's $80.00 rather than $20.00 but you get what you pay for. Interesting enough, I've been shooting these bullets in two different 30-06's unsized.
I've had the same experience with the Lee 185 gr 31 cal bullet mould also. Because it so often casts bullets at .314 and .315, I'm able to use it in a #4 MK 1 SMLE .303 Brit. and a 7.62X54R, both of which have .315” groove diameters. I also have a Lyman #311499, 200 gr bullet that I use in a #1 MK 3 SMLE, .303 Brit. Once again, these are all fired as cast and not sized.
I'm not a fan of Lee equipment though I do have and use some of it. It just might be that Cast367 might want to invest in a Lyman mould. Well, definitely try lapping the Lee out since it's worthless as is but if that doesn't work, buy a Lyman or a more expensive option.
The mention that his loads are OK isn't enough information. That could be a problem but if the bullet doesn't fit correctly, it's going to be a real bear to ever get it to shoot worth a toot. More than likely, that isn't going to take place.
I may have missed something but I don't recall Cast367 telling us what alloy he's using. Being in Europe, we don't know. Even on this side of the pond cast bullet shooters use all different alloys and that can also make a big difference. In the near future, those of us that are using wheel weights will have to find a new source and alloy since wheel weights are no longer available.
Cast 367, you didn't say whether or not you're using gas checks but I'm assuming you are. I do and I've also been heat treating my wheel weight bullets. So far, I've had my best accuracy with the .30", .31", and 8mm with heat treated bullets in the 1,300 to 1,700 f/s bracket. Yes, heat treated bullets can be used at higher velocities but so far, I haven't taken the time to investigate loads that will perform at 1,800 to 2,000 f/s in the firearms I've been shooting. Just too many other projects.
Back in the 1970's I visited Holland. No, I didn't go into the big cities, I'm a country boy.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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Dirtybore
posted this
12 November 2015
Making the same mistake repeatedly only means you should check your work more and realistically look at your technique..
Getting splatter on mold faces making bullets larger is generally attributed dumping sprue, ingots or bullets into the pot when the mold is nearby and open. Just stop that and your problem will vanish.
Gary That isn't what is taking place though I mentioned it because it can take place. If & when it does, it can be a real problem to get cleaned back up. No, I'm not dumping the sprue back into the pot with the open mould near by. It is over a foot away with a bullet still in it. This is my break time while the pot heats back up. After that run to, well you can guess, I put the mould back on the pot so it will warm back up too.
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gpidaho
posted this
12 November 2015
Sorry to report that both the Lee six cavity moulds I was so looking forward to using drop bullets so out of round that the sizing dies (both Lee and Saeco)Size about half way up one side of the bullets noses, Both are junk. Gp
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Ken Campbell Iowa
posted this
13 November 2015
re: lee outta round .
owch ! are the blocks misaligned or are the cavities cut oblong ?
hopefully lee will make good ...
ken
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gpidaho
posted this
14 November 2015
Hi Ken: I don't think it's an alignment problem so much as just a sloppy cut. The blocks come together fine and the locating pins don't hang up or drag. The moulds rain bullets as most Lee six cavity moulds do. It's just that the bullets are WAY out of round. I own several Lee moulds (25) some Saeco (6) and a NOE. About half the Lee moulds work great, no complaint. Some are okay and five or so should just be thrown away. It seems to me that there is very lax quality control at Lee and what comes off the line goes out the door. Some of my best bullets are made using some of their moulds that others on the forums claim to be their worst. The cost point is what sells their moulds, you just have to take a chance on them. I think I have enough Lee moulds for now and am going to upgrade in the future, most likely NOE. Always good to hear from you. Gp
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