2nd time with 85 gr. .224

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PETE posted this 18 June 2015

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onondaga posted this 18 June 2015

If your sight setting remained unchanged for all of the targets, your bench shooting form was a major factor in skewing your results. I suspect a heavy trigger pull causes you to change your grip.

Gary

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PETE posted this 18 June 2015

Onandaga

Could be. Could also be the extremely variable head wind. Probably needed wind flags since the mirage I usually shoot was absent.

A possibility might be that the twist rate (1-9) is kind of iffy and strong variable head wind can throw the bullet off. Necessary twist I think is one of the things we're trying to determine. If a little wind can cause tipping then (1-9) is not quick enuf. There was no noticeable tipping on target #1 which was shot in a light 9 o'clock wind.

So. More velocity? Maybe. But that only takes you so far. And not to far at that. I doubt it would keep stable out to the 200 yds we're looking for.

Pete

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onondaga posted this 18 June 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=59>PETE I agree, wind and its changes can do that. My comment on bench form was based on wind as a constant.

Watch for the magical word from the weatherman. “Temperature Inversion” is a weather word for the ultimate condition for shooting a rifle. I scored my lifetime best at 1,000 yards unlimited bench during a “Temperature Inversion".  The air is still.

Gary

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Mike H posted this 18 June 2015

Looks like velocity to me,groups are stringing up and down until the number five target where they level out.Mike.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 June 2015

strange as it may seem, i think straight strings of impacts show promise ... genuinely bad loads tend to shoot nice wide circles ... if you can shoot another 20 shots straight up and down, you are very close ...need better ignition ? faster powder yet in that velocity range ? maybe at higher velocities that bullet doesn't like the rifles' throat anymore ...

so:: there is hope here, just need to find the right key .

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John Alexander posted this 19 June 2015

I agree with Ken.  I think your groups show promise but there are not nearly enough of them.  

I can't remember what bullet you are shootings. I think you said earlier but you have started a new thread and I'm too lazy to hunt it up. What is the length?  Both of my bullets, the NOE 22780 SP and the Mos, are .9", both are pointed, and both stabilize OK in a 9 inch twist except for very slow loads sometimes at 200 - so I think they are close to the edge.

Seems like a very light load for 4198.  Is it burning completely?  What is the SD of your MVs.  You might try a somewhat faster powder 6-8 grains of something like BlueDot, 5-6 grains of Titegroup, 700X, etc. 

What is your average 5 shot group size with your best jacketed bullet load out of that rifle.?

John

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PETE posted this 19 June 2015

Ok. Lets see if I can get around to all these messages.

Gary,

Your idea might have merit where you live but around here it doesn't work out well. Plus I only have a finite amount of time to work on this project. Three other pistol projects dealing partly with the news these last two days have some people excited now. As you can see from my first post and this one there's been a few weeks pass. most of the delay is due to rain. I'd like to get out once a week but that hasn't been possible and to wait on the weatherman and your inversion idea would mean I'd still be waiting.

Mike,

I'd agree with you and hopefully I'll be pushing the MV higher as I go along. The only maximum MV listed in the Lyman manual are for much lighter bullets so I have to proceed with a certain amount of caution. BUT... Velocity is not a cure-all. I can push the MV so it's stable at 100 but would doubt if it would carry as far as 200 if my past experience is any indication.

Ken,

Yep! Many things to try. What I have posted is the only two times I've worked with this heavy a bullet in a .22. The right key, as you say, is the magic pill. Finding it is the problem.

John,

I agree. But first off I have to run thru 4198 which I know gives excellent results in a 60 gr. bullet. Got to start somewhere.

The bullet I'm using is the LBT 225 85 SP and it measures .892” with GC attached. My NOE 227 SP measures .903” with GC.

Agree that the 4198 loads I'm working with are probably to light. Will be boosting them as I go along. Different powders will be in the works when I find the accuracy MV's with what I'm working with now.

Have not chronographed anything yet. I feel there is WAY to much work before I need to worry about that.

As mentioned in the other thread.... I've never shot jacketed bullets in this gun.

Here's one thing all you guys need to keep in mind. I live an 80 mile round trip from the range and can only devote 2 days a week, at most, to this project. If it rains, or to windy, then that shoots that week. Plus I tend to be very methodical in my testing, since I don't want to go back over things when I'm ready to move on to the next step. Just wringing out 4198 could take most if not all this Summer.

Pete

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billglaze posted this 19 June 2015

Pete: In working with my .220 Swift, I'm beginning tp see some glimmerings of light. I had a wild hair, and loaded some ancient 4064 I've had on hand for years. Also some 4895 that proved to be unstable. I chrono'ed the 4064 the other day, and got some downright embarrasing numbers, as well as 10 shot 100 yd. groups of ca. 3"--waste of time. John and Ric have been helpful in getting the thought processes in gear; last time out showed some promise, with an experimental group with Red Dot that measured 1-9/16” for 10 shots. S.D. for the load was 5, which was gratifying. Other loads with the same powder showed 7 or 8 out of 10 in 1-1/8” or slightly less. My barrel is a 14” pitch, and shows no sign of tipping. The bullets are Lyman 225438 and 225415, (both being used with Gator gas checks from James Sage) which are a great deal shorter than you're currently using.
BTW: When the bullet is out of the barrel, it becomes a free agent, and is not subject to being “tipped” by the wind. Anyway, I'm having a lot of fun with the Swift, and this Red Dot has also opened a new area for me with the .308. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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PETE posted this 20 June 2015

Bill,

Maybe “tipped” is the wrong word, but the wind does have a large effect on a bullets flight. The further out you shoot and the more the MV goes down the more this effect shows up.

Since there is no way to know how void free your bullets are when running on the ragged edge of stability a point will be reached where the bullet will start to wobble, The more it wobbles the more the wind, or air pressure, if no wind, can get at the bullets surface.

I shoot more SS's than anything and a lot of .22 RF at 200 yds. at our bi-monthly matches. Wind from ALL directions has an effect on the bullets flight. I think part of the problem in the target above is due to the head wind I was experiencing the other day. If a shooter is unaware of these effects your not going to do well.

Working on the edge of stability just makes the wind/air pressure on the bullets surface have that much more effect the more the MV slows down and the further out your shooting.

Another fly in the ointment is the length of the bullet. The more surface the more the wind/air can work on it.

So as far as the tests I'm working on it appears as tho a 1-9 twist is getting close to being to slow. I can, and will, up the MV to see if I can get rid of the tipping. But upping the MV can only take you so far. What's the trade off at 200 yds. You might be able to stabilize the bullet out that far but do you still have accuracy?

So. Yes the bullet is a free agent once it leaves the barrel. But that doesn't mean there aren't any forces acting on it. Both internal and external.

Pete

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billglaze posted this 20 June 2015

Pete:Perhaps I misunderstood your statement on the wind.  Of course, wind has a “drift' effect on the bullet, as it emerges from the barrel, no question.  I thought you meant that the wind caused the bullet tipping, which, of course, it doesn't.  And, it stands to reason that any tipping present, would tend to get worse the greater the distance covered.  Probably it would do so regardless of why the tipping started in the first place, unless it was well-balanced and needed distance to “settle down.”  (A process I have never fully understood.  Although, many people feel it happens.)I guess that these small-caliber bullets must be temperamental.  I don't understand why you're showing possible tumbling with a 9” pitch.   How does that work out with the Greenhill equation?  While I have no stability problem (yet!) my 45 & 55 Gr bullets are a great deal shorter than you are using, I believe.  And, I'm operating currently at about 1900-2000 fps, which is much faster than I drive the 30's.John Alexander has been helpful in my experience, along with Ric and others on this list.  You will get help! Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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onondaga posted this 20 June 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=59>PETE Have you calculated at what range your bullets transition from sonic to subsonic velocity.  Bullets transitioning to subsonic have a stability reaction at the transition area and this may be part of what you are observing. Staying above or below the transition for the flight duration is the most stable. Changing on the way to the target can cause what you are seeing on paper.

Gary

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PETE posted this 20 June 2015

Bill,

Bullets should settle down “go to sleep” a short distance in front of the muzzle, This wobbling is caused from several things that take place on ignition and traveling down the barrel.

The tipping I and John see is due to the twist rate being a little slow and won't show up till further down range. You mention using 50-60 gr. bullets. Try using a 70 gr. bullet in your gun and report what happens.

The military is now using 1-8” twists to be sure the bullets they're using will stay stable. The old 1-12” experience the same tipping, only much worse. Actual tumbling.

Greenhill's formula has worked better for me using a 125 constant instead of the 150.

I'm not sure where people get the idea that small calibers are temperamental. Haven't found that at all. They have a few rules to follow but after that they aren't any worse that the bigger calibers.

Gary,

Agree with your post.

Couldn't tell you what distance the tipping starts. To me it's useless information since if it tips at the distance I want to shoot at I'm not interested in the shorter distances. My goal right now is to keep upping the velocity to see if I can get rid of tipping at 100 yds. Then go back to 200. Right now it appears as tho around 12.0 to 12.5 grs. of 4198 has shown to be the best. But it happens sometimes that going up in MV will bring the groups in again. Will find out. Will be shooting up to 14.5 grs. the next time out. That will leave me another 1 1/2 grs. to max.

Pete

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billglaze posted this 20 June 2015

Pete:What kind of velocities are you getting now?  Is upping the powder charge going to put you in the jacketed regime?  Thereby opening a whole new can of worms?   It would be interesting to see if it works to improve; for me, and right now, I'm driving the Swift faster by several hundred feet, than I'm driving the .30's, with no ill effects.  Groups of both calibers seem to be comparable.  Surely not world-beaters, but ca. 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 for 10 shots.  Sometimes a little better.  It makes an interesting comparison, being able to work with both calibers. I think Gary is onto something; you might have a stability problem in the trans-sonic zone. And thanks, but no thanks, on trying a bullet that heavy in my 16 pitch barrel; I'll continue working around the 50-55 gr. range until (if) I get that one solved.  Then maybe I can help the D of D with their problems!<G>.  Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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onondaga posted this 20 June 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=59>PETE You will need a muzzle velocity ~ 1400 fps to remain above sonic at 200 yards assuming a BC of .400 for that 85 gr. bullet.

At MV 1400 fps your velocity is 1200+ fps at 100 yards and the bullet has not transitioned to sub-sonic at 100 yards, but that is close.

Use this software free online if you have the correct BC for your bullet: http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html>http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

I just guessed .400 BC.

Gary

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joeb33050 posted this 21 June 2015

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=59>PETE You will need a muzzle velocity ~ 1400 fps to remain above sonic at 200 yards assuming a BC of .400 for that 85 gr. bullet.

At MV 1400 fps your velocity is 1200+ fps at 100 yards and the bullet has not transitioned to sub-sonic at 100 yards, but that is close.

Use this software free online if you have the correct BC for your bullet: http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html>http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

I just guessed .400 BC.

Gary BC for same-shaped bullets is proportional to length. If the 22 bullet is ~.9” long, and 311299 is  1.175” long with ~.377 BC, and if they're about the same shape, the 22 bullet BC is ~ (.9/1.175) X .377 ~ .29; and velocities have to go up.

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PETE posted this 21 June 2015

Bill,

Please.... Read my previous posts in this thread, and the previous one too, again and all your questions will be answered.

Gary, You need to know a little something about me, since it appears you put me in the “no-nothing” class with all your messages about things I learned 50/60 yrs. ago. I'm 75 yrs. old and been competitive shooting since I was 15. I have boxes full of trophies from Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun (trap, Skeet, & Sporting Clays). I have 85 (just counted) books in my library that deal with shooting of the above.

The only reason I'm on this forum is once in a while someone... like John A..... comes up with an idea that sounds like it might be interesting to try out. Like what this thread I'm putting up now.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE MV's ARE FOR THE WORK I'M DOING NOW. I DON'T CARE WHAT THE MV IS AT THIS TIME. THEREFORE I CAN NOT GIVE YOU ANY ANSWERS,

I firmly believe the info you get from a chronograph is basically useless unless you need to know the MV. Everybody gets all excited about SD's and ES's when all they are is an indicator. I have seen way to many SD's and ES's so low they would amaze me. But shooting more groups showed the average wasn't anywhere near as good as others.

Now this is my plan. Engrave it on your eyeballs and commit it to memory so I don't have to keep repeating myself. I will work up two or three loads with IMR 4198, that look good over a span of time and weather conditions. I will then run them thru a chronograph and decide which appears to have long term accuracy. Then I will then try another powder.... if I can find any these days that are applicable...... and do the same thing, This could take a few years, but it's the part of shooting I really enjoy. Trophies I have plenty of, so the experiment is the thing.

Now, if there are specific questions on something I'm doing, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer. But don't go over the same thing in every message or ASSUME I have no idea which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.

Pete

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joeb33050 posted this 21 June 2015

I've never found a reasonable explanation of the transsonic business and accuracy. The common comment is that drag increases in the transsonic range, is lower at both higher and lower velocities.I've shot enough 22 rf at 200 yards to know that going through the sos doesn't affect accuracy, compared to 100 and 50 yard results.A period of higher drag = more rapid slowing = much more wind drift -maybe that's what it's all about. Loring Hall told me 40 years ago that tipping bullets are frequently the most accurate bullets, and 30 years of my and other SS rifle targets seems to prove the pudding.

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John Alexander posted this 21 June 2015

Joeb wrote: “BC for same-shaped bullets is proportional to length. If the 22 bullet is ~.9” long, and 311299 is  1.175” long with ~.377 BC, and if they're about the same shape, the 22 bullet BC is ~ (.9/1.175) X .377 ~ .29; and velocities have to go up."

Joe's estimate BC by proportion for bullets of similar shape matches pretty well with Al Nelson's estimate of NOE 22780 SP which is .9” long but has a much sharper nose than 299s. He estimates it as .32 or about ten percent higher than Joe's estimate. I don't know how he makes his estimates but will ask him.

Bill, You are right your 16” twist won't stabilize a 70 grain bullet -- nor will a 14” or a 12” Back just as things were drying up and Noah had released the animals.  My old blunt 72 grain NEI bullet was winning its share of postal matches out of a 10.7” inch twist -- although bullet holes were often oblong.  In spite of warnings to the contrary,  a few shooters bought the mold and tried it in the usual 14” twist and reported tumbling bullets. I also tried it in a 12” twist with the same results.

Pete Wrote: “Another fly in the ointment is the length of the bullet. The more surface the more the wind/air can work on it." This pops up occasionally but is one of those logical sounding conventional wisdom “truths” that ain't.  A long bullet will always be deflected less by a cross wind than a shorter bullet with a similar shaped bullet of the same density.  As Joe notes BC is proportional to length -- the longer the better, if shapes are similar. I have heard the same statement out of winners of the CBA nationals which shows that just because an excellent shooters believes something doesn't make it true.

John

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PETE posted this 21 June 2015

Joe,

Good points. I've seen the same thing. Either keep the bullet supersonic or below the speed of sound. 22 SV RF is a good example of the latter. I continually amaze myself that a few of the guys at our shoots can score in the mid to high 240's on the ASSRA's 200 yd.target.

I think going into the transsonic from supersonic causes turbulence around the bullet and will slightly affect the flight. Probably depends on how long it takes to get thru that area, plus wgt. and design of the bullet.

Agree that tipping bullets can be some of the most accurate, although they make me a little queasy wondering if they'll hold up under all conditions.

Pete

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PETE posted this 21 June 2015

John,

Learn something new every day. Your comments on here are what make me come back for more. Try and keep your hat size down. :)  I see your point. Maybe wgt. of the bullet would be a better analogy of  wind effect.  Thoughts? Pete

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