2nd time with 85 gr. .224
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- Last Post 24 July 2015
If your sight setting remained unchanged for all of the targets, your bench shooting form was a major factor in skewing your results. I suspect a heavy trigger pull causes you to change your grip.
Gary
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Onandaga
Could be. Could also be the extremely variable head wind. Probably needed wind flags since the mirage I usually shoot was absent.
A possibility might be that the twist rate (1-9) is kind of iffy and strong variable head wind can throw the bullet off. Necessary twist I think is one of the things we're trying to determine. If a little wind can cause tipping then (1-9) is not quick enuf. There was no noticeable tipping on target #1 which was shot in a light 9 o'clock wind.
So. More velocity? Maybe. But that only takes you so far. And not to far at that. I doubt it would keep stable out to the 200 yds we're looking for.
Pete
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Watch for the magical word from the weatherman. “Temperature Inversion” is a weather word for the ultimate condition for shooting a rifle. I scored my lifetime best at 1,000 yards unlimited bench during a “Temperature Inversion". The air is still.
Gary
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Looks like velocity to me,groups are stringing up and down until the number five target where they level out.Mike.
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strange as it may seem, i think straight strings of impacts show promise ... genuinely bad loads tend to shoot nice wide circles ... if you can shoot another 20 shots straight up and down, you are very close ...need better ignition ? faster powder yet in that velocity range ? maybe at higher velocities that bullet doesn't like the rifles' throat anymore ...
so:: there is hope here, just need to find the right key .
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I agree with Ken. I think your groups show promise but there are not nearly enough of them.
I can't remember what bullet you are shootings. I think you said earlier but you have started a new thread and I'm too lazy to hunt it up. What is the length? Both of my bullets, the NOE 22780 SP and the Mos, are .9", both are pointed, and both stabilize OK in a 9 inch twist except for very slow loads sometimes at 200 - so I think they are close to the edge.
Seems like a very light load for 4198. Is it burning completely? What is the SD of your MVs. You might try a somewhat faster powder 6-8 grains of something like BlueDot, 5-6 grains of Titegroup, 700X, etc.
What is your average 5 shot group size with your best jacketed bullet load out of that rifle.?
John
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Ok. Lets see if I can get around to all these messages.
Gary,
Your idea might have merit where you live but around here it doesn't work out well. Plus I only have a finite amount of time to work on this project. Three other pistol projects dealing partly with the news these last two days have some people excited now. As you can see from my first post and this one there's been a few weeks pass. most of the delay is due to rain. I'd like to get out once a week but that hasn't been possible and to wait on the weatherman and your inversion idea would mean I'd still be waiting.
Mike,
I'd agree with you and hopefully I'll be pushing the MV higher as I go along. The only maximum MV listed in the Lyman manual are for much lighter bullets so I have to proceed with a certain amount of caution. BUT... Velocity is not a cure-all. I can push the MV so it's stable at 100 but would doubt if it would carry as far as 200 if my past experience is any indication.
Ken,
Yep! Many things to try. What I have posted is the only two times I've worked with this heavy a bullet in a .22. The right key, as you say, is the magic pill. Finding it is the problem.
John,
I agree. But first off I have to run thru 4198 which I know gives excellent results in a 60 gr. bullet. Got to start somewhere.
The bullet I'm using is the LBT 225 85 SP and it measures .892” with GC attached. My NOE 227 SP measures .903” with GC.
Agree that the 4198 loads I'm working with are probably to light. Will be boosting them as I go along. Different powders will be in the works when I find the accuracy MV's with what I'm working with now.
Have not chronographed anything yet. I feel there is WAY to much work before I need to worry about that.
As mentioned in the other thread.... I've never shot jacketed bullets in this gun.
Here's one thing all you guys need to keep in mind. I live an 80 mile round trip from the range and can only devote 2 days a week, at most, to this project. If it rains, or to windy, then that shoots that week. Plus I tend to be very methodical in my testing, since I don't want to go back over things when I'm ready to move on to the next step. Just wringing out 4198 could take most if not all this Summer.
Pete
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Pete:
In working with my .220 Swift, I'm beginning tp see some glimmerings of light. I had a wild hair, and loaded some ancient 4064 I've had on hand for years. Also some 4895 that proved to be unstable. I chrono'ed the 4064 the other day, and got some downright embarrasing numbers, as well as 10 shot 100 yd. groups of ca. 3"--waste of time. John and Ric have been helpful in getting the thought processes in gear; last time out showed some promise, with an experimental group with Red Dot that measured 1-9/16” for 10 shots. S.D. for the load was 5, which was gratifying. Other loads with the same powder showed 7 or 8 out of 10 in 1-1/8” or slightly less.
My barrel is a 14” pitch, and shows no sign of tipping. The bullets are Lyman 225438 and 225415, (both being used with Gator gas checks from James Sage) which are a great deal shorter than you're currently using.
BTW: When the bullet is out of the barrel, it becomes a free agent, and is not subject to being “tipped” by the wind.
Anyway, I'm having a lot of fun with the Swift, and this Red Dot has also opened a new area for me with the .308.
Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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Bill,
Maybe “tipped” is the wrong word, but the wind does have a large effect on a bullets flight. The further out you shoot and the more the MV goes down the more this effect shows up.
Since there is no way to know how void free your bullets are when running on the ragged edge of stability a point will be reached where the bullet will start to wobble, The more it wobbles the more the wind, or air pressure, if no wind, can get at the bullets surface.
I shoot more SS's than anything and a lot of .22 RF at 200 yds. at our bi-monthly matches. Wind from ALL directions has an effect on the bullets flight. I think part of the problem in the target above is due to the head wind I was experiencing the other day. If a shooter is unaware of these effects your not going to do well.
Working on the edge of stability just makes the wind/air pressure on the bullets surface have that much more effect the more the MV slows down and the further out your shooting.
Another fly in the ointment is the length of the bullet. The more surface the more the wind/air can work on it.
So as far as the tests I'm working on it appears as tho a 1-9 twist is getting close to being to slow. I can, and will, up the MV to see if I can get rid of the tipping. But upping the MV can only take you so far. What's the trade off at 200 yds. You might be able to stabilize the bullet out that far but do you still have accuracy?
So. Yes the bullet is a free agent once it leaves the barrel. But that doesn't mean there aren't any forces acting on it. Both internal and external.
Pete
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Pete:Perhaps I misunderstood your statement on the wind. Of course, wind has a “drift' effect on the bullet, as it emerges from the barrel, no question. I thought you meant that the wind caused the bullet tipping, which, of course, it doesn't. And, it stands to reason that any tipping present, would tend to get worse the greater the distance covered. Probably it would do so regardless of why the tipping started in the first place, unless it was well-balanced and needed distance to “settle down.” (A process I have never fully understood. Although, many people feel it happens.)I guess that these small-caliber bullets must be temperamental. I don't understand why you're showing possible tumbling with a 9” pitch. How does that work out with the Greenhill equation? While I have no stability problem (yet!) my 45 & 55 Gr bullets are a great deal shorter than you are using, I believe. And, I'm operating currently at about 1900-2000 fps, which is much faster than I drive the 30's.John Alexander has been helpful in my experience, along with Ric and others on this list. You will get help! Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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Gary
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Bill,
Bullets should settle down “go to sleep” a short distance in front of the muzzle, This wobbling is caused from several things that take place on ignition and traveling down the barrel.
The tipping I and John see is due to the twist rate being a little slow and won't show up till further down range. You mention using 50-60 gr. bullets. Try using a 70 gr. bullet in your gun and report what happens.
The military is now using 1-8” twists to be sure the bullets they're using will stay stable. The old 1-12” experience the same tipping, only much worse. Actual tumbling.
Greenhill's formula has worked better for me using a 125 constant instead of the 150.
I'm not sure where people get the idea that small calibers are temperamental. Haven't found that at all. They have a few rules to follow but after that they aren't any worse that the bigger calibers.
Gary,
Agree with your post.
Couldn't tell you what distance the tipping starts. To me it's useless information since if it tips at the distance I want to shoot at I'm not interested in the shorter distances. My goal right now is to keep upping the velocity to see if I can get rid of tipping at 100 yds. Then go back to 200. Right now it appears as tho around 12.0 to 12.5 grs. of 4198 has shown to be the best. But it happens sometimes that going up in MV will bring the groups in again. Will find out. Will be shooting up to 14.5 grs. the next time out. That will leave me another 1 1/2 grs. to max.
Pete
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Pete:What kind of velocities are you getting now? Is upping the powder charge going to put you in the jacketed regime? Thereby opening a whole new can of worms? It would be interesting to see if it works to improve; for me, and right now, I'm driving the Swift faster by several hundred feet, than I'm driving the .30's, with no ill effects. Groups of both calibers seem to be comparable. Surely not world-beaters, but ca. 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 for 10 shots. Sometimes a little better. It makes an interesting comparison, being able to work with both calibers. I think Gary is onto something; you might have a stability problem in the trans-sonic zone. And thanks, but no thanks, on trying a bullet that heavy in my 16 pitch barrel; I'll continue working around the 50-55 gr. range until (if) I get that one solved. Then maybe I can help the D of D with their problems!<G>. Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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At MV 1400 fps your velocity is 1200+ fps at 100 yards and the bullet has not transitioned to sub-sonic at 100 yards, but that is close.
Use this software free online if you have the correct BC for your bullet:
I just guessed .400 BC.
Gary
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At MV 1400 fps your velocity is 1200+ fps at 100 yards and the bullet has not transitioned to sub-sonic at 100 yards, but that is close.
Use this software free online if you have the correct BC for your bullet:
I just guessed .400 BC.
Gary BC for same-shaped bullets is proportional to length. If the 22 bullet is ~.9” long, and 311299 is 1.175” long with ~.377 BC, and if they're about the same shape, the 22 bullet BC is ~ (.9/1.175) X .377 ~ .29; and velocities have to go up.
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Bill,
Please.... Read my previous posts in this thread, and the previous one too, again and all your questions will be answered.
Gary, You need to know a little something about me, since it appears you put me in the “no-nothing” class with all your messages about things I learned 50/60 yrs. ago. I'm 75 yrs. old and been competitive shooting since I was 15. I have boxes full of trophies from Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun (trap, Skeet, & Sporting Clays). I have 85 (just counted) books in my library that deal with shooting of the above.
The only reason I'm on this forum is once in a while someone... like John A..... comes up with an idea that sounds like it might be interesting to try out. Like what this thread I'm putting up now.
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE MV's ARE FOR THE WORK I'M DOING NOW. I DON'T CARE WHAT THE MV IS AT THIS TIME. THEREFORE I CAN NOT GIVE YOU ANY ANSWERS,
I firmly believe the info you get from a chronograph is basically useless unless you need to know the MV. Everybody gets all excited about SD's and ES's when all they are is an indicator. I have seen way to many SD's and ES's so low they would amaze me. But shooting more groups showed the average wasn't anywhere near as good as others.
Now this is my plan. Engrave it on your eyeballs and commit it to memory so I don't have to keep repeating myself. I will work up two or three loads with IMR 4198, that look good over a span of time and weather conditions. I will then run them thru a chronograph and decide which appears to have long term accuracy. Then I will then try another powder.... if I can find any these days that are applicable...... and do the same thing, This could take a few years, but it's the part of shooting I really enjoy. Trophies I have plenty of, so the experiment is the thing.
Now, if there are specific questions on something I'm doing, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer. But don't go over the same thing in every message or ASSUME I have no idea which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.
Pete
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I've never found a reasonable explanation of the transsonic business and accuracy. The common comment is that drag increases in the transsonic range, is lower at both higher and lower velocities.I've shot enough 22 rf at 200 yards to know that going through the sos doesn't affect accuracy, compared to 100 and 50 yard results.A period of higher drag = more rapid slowing = much more wind drift -maybe that's what it's all about. Loring Hall told me 40 years ago that tipping bullets are frequently the most accurate bullets, and 30 years of my and other SS rifle targets seems to prove the pudding.
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Joeb wrote: “BC for same-shaped bullets is proportional to length. If the 22 bullet is ~.9” long, and 311299 is 1.175” long with ~.377 BC, and if they're about the same shape, the 22 bullet BC is ~ (.9/1.175) X .377 ~ .29; and velocities have to go up."
Joe's estimate BC by proportion for bullets of similar shape matches pretty well with Al Nelson's estimate of NOE 22780 SP which is .9” long but has a much sharper nose than 299s. He estimates it as .32 or about ten percent higher than Joe's estimate. I don't know how he makes his estimates but will ask him.
Bill, You are right your 16” twist won't stabilize a 70 grain bullet -- nor will a 14” or a 12” Back just as things were drying up and Noah had released the animals. My old blunt 72 grain NEI bullet was winning its share of postal matches out of a 10.7” inch twist -- although bullet holes were often oblong. In spite of warnings to the contrary, a few shooters bought the mold and tried it in the usual 14” twist and reported tumbling bullets. I also tried it in a 12” twist with the same results.
Pete Wrote: “Another fly in the ointment is the length of the bullet. The more surface the more the wind/air can work on it." This pops up occasionally but is one of those logical sounding conventional wisdom “truths” that ain't. A long bullet will always be deflected less by a cross wind than a shorter bullet with a similar shaped bullet of the same density. As Joe notes BC is proportional to length -- the longer the better, if shapes are similar. I have heard the same statement out of winners of the CBA nationals which shows that just because an excellent shooters believes something doesn't make it true.
John
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Joe,
Good points. I've seen the same thing. Either keep the bullet supersonic or below the speed of sound. 22 SV RF is a good example of the latter. I continually amaze myself that a few of the guys at our shoots can score in the mid to high 240's on the ASSRA's 200 yd.target.
I think going into the transsonic from supersonic causes turbulence around the bullet and will slightly affect the flight. Probably depends on how long it takes to get thru that area, plus wgt. and design of the bullet.
Agree that tipping bullets can be some of the most accurate, although they make me a little queasy wondering if they'll hold up under all conditions.
Pete
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John,
Learn something new every day. Your comments on here are what make me come back for more. Try and keep your hat size down. :) I see your point. Maybe wgt. of the bullet would be a better analogy of wind effect. Thoughts? Pete
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Yes weight if important. Weight (mass if you are picky) divided by cross sectional area gives sectional density and sectional density divided by the drag coefficient gives us BC. And the more BC the better.
Weight of the bullet depends, of course, on volume of the bullet and its density.
So the more volume (length for a given bore size and nose shape) the better.
The more dense the better. Winners don't shoot aluminum bullets.
And of course the pointier (thus lower drag coefficient) the better.
As far as hat size. Trying to consistently shoot cast bullets well and old age keep me humble.
John
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John,
So where's the trade-off? You have two bullets from the same mold cavity. One being cast of pure Lead and the other out of Lino. We will assume they are “perfect".
Would you say the Lead (heavier) would be affected less,or the difference would be negliable?
The reason I'm curious is because the bullets I'm using in this test are cast out of Lino. Might be a cause of tipping in my gun where you might not see any in yours. The slightly lighter bullet should lose velocity faster than the heaviest. Since we are running pretty close to the minimum twist stability factor would you think even as small a change in alloy we'd possibly see a cause?
Pete
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There is a not so popular theory I support that bullets cast of Linotype are more critical to chamber throat fit than softer bullets are. The reason I support this unpopular theory is that Linotype bullets cannot be made to obdurate in any application I have ever tried, so fit is more critical with Linotype. In many applications, even undersize bullets of #2 alloy will obdurate to a fit in a few inches of bore when fired. Undersize Linotype bullets won't obdurate and will wobble down the bore and shoot all over the place.
I only base my agreement with the unpopular theory on the fact that softer bullets easily obdurate and Linotype bullets don't obdurate so they have to fit better. This is simply deductive logic on my part.
The only good use I have had for Linotype casting bullets since 1957 is to use it for scrap alloying softer than Linotype alloys or the strips make nice weights in Pinewood Derby cars for my Cub Scouts. I currently have 50+ lbs of it in my collection. I generally mix it 1:1 with soft jacketed bullet scrap for a BHN 15 recreational alloy similar to Hardball Pistol Alloy.
I don't say these things to call you inexperienced or a beginner. I point these things out to help beginners that are reading here to learn stuff. You already know this stuff.
For the beginners again: An inked linotype bullet in a dummy load will show if you do or don't have a sliding fit to the chamber throat. Chamber one, eject it and look at the ink.
Gary
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John,
So where's the trade-off? You have two bullets from the same mold cavity. One being cast of pure Lead and the other out of Lino. We will assume they are “perfect".
Would you say the Lead (heavier) would be affected less,or the difference would be negliable?
The reason I'm curious is because the bullets I'm using in this test are cast out of Lino. Might be a cause of tipping in my gun where you might not see any in yours. The slightly lighter bullet should lose velocity faster than the heaviest. Since we are running pretty close to the minimum twist stability factor would you think even as small a change in alloy we'd possibly see a cause?
Pete Good thinking. The BC of a the lead bullet would be 9% higher than that of the Linotype one. (Of course the BC of a reasonable alloy like wheel weights would be closer to linotype.) That shouldn't have an effect on the stability at the muzzle since that is mostly dependent on the bullet's length and twist. But changing from a WW bullet that retained barely enough velocity at the target to avoid the transonic zone to a linotype bullet at the same MV out of the same mold (and thus a slightly lower BC) would slow down more and might result in the linotype bullet being affected by the transition from super to sub sonic.
I think that could happen but because the densities are so close and thus thus the BCs it would only take a small increase in the MV of the linotype bullet to avoid it. So I suspect it is possible but not likely to be a problem hard to fix with more gun powder. (I have an ex marine friend who says any problem can be solved with high explosives.)
I agree with Gary that you might find life easier with a softer bullet since your velocities/pressures don't require the strength of linotype. It might be worth a try.I have almost always found BHN 12 - 15 bullets easier to make shoot in factory chambers than linotype, unless you are going for velocity instead of precision.
So if that also turns out to be true for you there is no trade-off. Going with the softer/heavier/higher BC/ cheaper bullet is pure gain assuming you can cast them well.
John
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Gary,
I can't disagree with yourstatesd theory, but, for shooting small cal. bullets I use Link Why? Because I feel the smaller the diam. the harder. The longer the bullet the harder. The faster the bullet the harder. This not some theory with me but a lot of years figuring this out for myself.
In the SS shooting game when shooting .32 cal. bullets I've found that in the 1400 - 1700 fps range a 1-20 to 1-25 works best. .25 cal. requires a 1-32 alloy. .38, .40, & 45 work best with a 1-20 or 1-25 ally. .50 cal. Usually works best with pure Lead.
This is not supposition or theory on my part and is not written with a typewriter. All these cal's were actually tested and shot by myself in competition. I've got the medals to prove they're valid in the guns I used. I go with what works for me! :)
So... As the old boy said. YMMV.
Pete
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John, I'll go along with the first part of your post. You might be right in that a softer alloy might work better, and as the post right above points out I do use softer alloys depending on what my testing has found for particular guns.
But I believe that small, long bullets, driven at high MV's need to be harder.
But at this time I'm not gonna stick my neck out and say, in this case, a softer alloy is needed. You guys believe that to get decent accuracy the bullet must fit the throat and riflimg perfectly. Yet not a one has asked what I am doing to even get the results I'm getting. You all seem to be assuming I'm going at this willy-nilly.
Far from it. I've been reading what you, and others, posted here and applied that and some ideas that were forced on me by the mold I have.
Pete
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If any of you have Hatchers Notebook check out the section on the Grennhill formula. I don't have my copy with me but if I recall correctly there is some discussion of varying density of bullets.
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Pete wrote: “Yet not a one has asked what I am doing to even get the results I'm getting. You all seem to be assuming I'm going at this willy-nilly. “
Pete, I doubt that anyone thinks you are going at these experiments willy-nilly. You seem to be very serious. People are trying to help and we sometimes come up with suggestions that may not be useful.
I for one would be interested in all the details you are willing to tell. I would especially like to know more about the 80 grain LBT bullet you are using. Veral only list weights up to 66 grains for the 22 so I assume yours is a custom bullet. Do you have a drawing or sketch you could post or just a description. How do you go about getting or checking a good fit.You are getting decent results very early so you must be doing something right.
John
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John wrote,"I for one would be interested in all the details you are willing to tell. I would especially like to know more about the 80 grain LBT bullet you are using. Veral only list weights up to 66 grains for the 22 so I assume yours is a custom bullet. Do you have a drawing or sketch you could post or just a description. How do you go about getting or checking a good fit.You are getting decent results very early so you must be doing something right."
John,
Lets see if I can get all the info you want.
As far as I can recollect the LBT is was not a custom order. I originally bought it to shoot in my 1-8” AR. For those not familiar with your/mine NOE bullet it's the one on the left. Cast out of Lino the NOE weighs 80 grs. and the LBT weighs 79.1 grs. Getting it to fit the bore was a royal pain. The nose on both bullets can't be pushed into the muzzle or ahead of the throat. The NOE was .222” and the LBT was .224". An NOE 60 gr. bullet has what I consider a perfect fit at the muzzle and throat. It measures .2195"
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John, Yeah, I agree. These long bullets are going to require jumping through different hoops. However, I mis-typed when I said that the Douglas had a 16” pitch--it's actually the not-uncommon 14". Still to slow to stabilize anything over, well, maybe--60 gr. But, things are starting to make sense now at the 50-55 gr. level. The thing seems to want to shoot faster than I thought it would--around 1900 seems O.K. with the Lymans. Would you suggest any different mould yet, or should I wring out these more? Thanks for your help--it's been gold. Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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"I for one would be interested in all the details you are willing to tell. I would especially like to know more about the 80 grain LBT bullet you are using. Veral only list weights up to 66 grains for the 22 so I assume yours is a custom bullet. Do you have a drawing or sketch you could post or just a description. How do you go about getting or checking a good fit.You are getting decent results very early so you must be doing something right."
John,
Looking ahead to a point hwere I might need to size down to .219” or .2195” a much larger problem shows up. Neither bullet can be sized down in one operation. In fact I lose a small number just sizing them down to .220". There's a 100% loss sizing them straight down to .219". I can do it by sizing them to .220” switch dies and sizing them down to .219” Still lose a few going to .220” (getting better at it) and none going down the extra .001"
Now the other problem is sizing the driving bands down. With the noses at .220", sizing the driving bands to 225". Sizing them to .224” works. Can't figure that one out.
After that there isn't much else to tell. Just basic loading techniques everyone uses to get up what they feel works the best for them.
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Pete, Thanks for the information, great picture -- very interesting -- even shocking. That two respected mold maker would let molds for bore riding bullets get out the door with noses .003” and .005” over the SAAMI spec for bore diameter is surprising. I would have sent both molds back. You are a very patient man. The bullet noses from both of my NOE 22780 SP molds are just a tad over .219. Ideal for some and can be lapped or beagled for a better fit in others. Got to do some stuff while the sun shines -- more later.
John
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Use a softer alloy and cast hot for good mold fillout. The softer alloy will cast a smaller diameter and will be easier bore ride fit. LBT stated in their book that a hard linotype alloy is not needed for smaller 22 caliber.
Match your bullet to rifling twist.
John's powder recommendations work very well, especially Tightgroup. 6 grains of tightgroup is very small and does not come close to filling the case, but works really well.
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OU812,
Tried that. Even running pure Lead doesn't reduce the size enuf.
My experience runs counter to LBT's unless you are running at .22 RF velocities. Won't know till I chronograph my tests but think I'll be over or pushing 2000 fps. Strictly a guess on my part but a 58 gr. SAECO needed s!ightly over 2000 fps to get the best accuracy. The trouble with the powders you all recommend I don't have or at this time aren't available around here.. I use what I've got. I'm sorry the results I'm getting don't meet the results your getting. Please post a target or two with the pertinent info about them like I did so I can see how to do it. I hear a lot about how I ought to be doing it but don't see any proof of it. As they on other forums... Post pictures or it didn't happen. Pete
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Bill wrote: "But, things are starting to make sense now at the 50-55 gr. level. The thing seems to want to shoot faster than I thought it would--around 1900 seems O.K. with the Lymans. Would you suggest any different mould yet, or should I wring out these more?Thanks for your help--it's been gold.Bill
Bill,Maybe one of the reasons that you are finding success with your Swift at much higher velocities than what works for you in 30 caliber is the very small sectional density of the 50-55 grain bullet. They are equivalent to 90 -- 100 grain 30 caliber bullets and you are probably not shooting 100 grain 30 caliber bullets.
I once did a lot of shooting with a light weight Sako 222 which would average a little under 1MOA with match JBs. I had best luck with the old 50 grain 415 bullet and it did almost as well with 462 (now discontinued) You seem to have a handle on 413 which I never figured out.
I got a lot of tiny groups to tease me but the best honest accuracy I achieved was 1.5MOA (average of several 5 shot groups) with 6 grains of 2400 and the 415. I haven't shot short bullets much since I got my hands on a faster twist 22 bore and went to longer bullets. So I can't suggest a different mold.
How close are you getting to the great accuracy you got long ago with the Swift?
When you get something that looks like gold you should be skeptical there is a lot of fool's gold available.
John
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Well, John, speaking of Fools Gold--I went to the range today, and got only one half-way passable group from the .22. No real firm idea why. The only hurray was with the Savage 12 in .308; the first shot after changing loads went out of the group, (it usually does) but the following 9 were good. However, like Edison, I'm not discouraged; I've got a long distance to go before that.
But, joeb's discussion about Sectional Densities got me to thinking, so I looked up the SD of the 225438. Would you believe .92? Me neither. Any wind at all, and I mean any, and the thing winds up hitting Mrs. Magruders outhouse. I've been going out early, before the wind comes up; I can see now that any wind at all is going to negate my efforts. The 55 gr. has got to be a little better; I'm going to look at the numbers, though there's not much I can do to change them. Still working. Thanks for the help and advisories.
Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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My 223 project has been on hold, but I was making very good progress before I stopped. I plan on getting back to it soon. This is what worked best so far for me in my Remington 700 1/12 twist barrel and 62 grain LBT bullet. Gun was throated longer (different animal). Lawrence Magnum Birdshot alloy (14 bhn) AO or Tightgroup powder Less lube Lower velocity < 2000
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Here is the 62 grain LBT bullet. I was wanting to buy a short chambered Shillen 1/9 twist barrel and have it throated to accept a longer/ heavier LBT bullet (non bore rider). The throater I use was purchased at Midway and cuts a .2245 diameter leade. After throating I lap and smooth the throat with bronze brush and 400 lapping compound. When softer .2252 diameter bullet is chambered you can feel resistance without bullet being pushed back into case...harder alloys are harder to chamber. Bullets are seated long in case and held slightly above gas check...they still fit 223 magazine well.
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OU812,
Nice groups especially groups 2 &4 on the first target and the Varget 20 gr. load. I assume those are 1” squares on your targets.
Pete
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OU812,
I see on post #38 you mention using magnum bird shot with a bhn of 14. In post #39 the target shows you water quenched WW's. Clip-on WW's after 3 weeks or so can vary from 18-21. Comes pretty close to Rotometals 21 bhn for pure Lino. You got a tester to know what your alloy is?
Never tested my Lino but since I bought it from a print shop switching over to new tech. I doubt if it would be harder than your quenched WW's.
Pete
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OU812, Nice batch of groups. Must be a pretty decent average for the four with 6.5 grains?
Bill, Yeah, a ballistic coefficient of .092 is lower than whale dung. That's why you don't see any 95 grain 30 caliber bullets at CBA matches. When I was shooting the short 22 bullets unless it was very calm I shot most of my test groups at 50 yards to take out 75% of the wind effect compared to 100 yards. There are always enough other things to worry about without thinking that any wide shots were caused by the wind. When shooting at both 50 and 100 yards on a calm day the averages at 100 were no more than twice the averages for 50 so 50 will tell you what you need to know unless the bullets start out barely stable.
I could win at 100 with my blunt 72 grain bullet but was usually sunk at 200. But the 85 Mos or the NOE 22780 SP can be competitive at 200. John
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John, what twist are you running? Those bullets must take quite a spin.
And, I didn't really realize until I looked at the ballistic tables, just how these small pills would be affected--a small 5 mph breeze would take the things right out of the group; explains why, a while back, I had just put 4 in a nice, close group at 100, when there was a definite switch in mirage, signalling a wind shift. The balance of the shots went into a nice 6 shot group--about 3” from the first 4. It seems to me ironic that we try to get this all scienced out, and, when you have to begin wind doping, all our meticulous science goes out the window. I guess that all we can do is try. Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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OU812,
I see on post #38 you mention using magnum bird shot with a bhn of 14. In post #39 the target shows you water quenched WW's. Clip-on WW's after 3 weeks or so can vary from 18-21. Comes pretty close to Rotometals 21 bhn for pure Lino. You got a tester to know what your alloy is?
Never tested my Lino but since I bought it from a print shop switching over to new tech. I doubt if it would be harder than your quenched WW's.
Pete
I have the Saeco tester to test alloys. I must cast larger flat nose 38 cal bullets for testing, because the 22 cal bullets are too small to fit device.
When I was testing at higher velocities I heat treated the bird shot alloy. Accuracy seemed more consistant at lower velocity using softer 14bhn lead.
Lots more testing (shooting and loading) needs to be done. I wish I had a range set up in my backyard. I could shoot from my bedroom window dressed in nothing, but my boxers.
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OU812,
I just take an ingot of the alloy I'm using and then run it thru the tester.
Pete
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Bill wrote: John, what twist are you running? Those bullets must take quite a spin. It seems to me ironic that we try to get this all scienced out, and, when you have to begin wind doping, all our meticulous science goes out the window. I guess that all we can do is try.Bill Bill, My Tikka has an eight inch twist. The Mos bullet pictured in some of my articles and the NOS 22780 SP are both .9” long and will stabilize in a 9 inch twist but the holes at 200 are sometimes a little oblong depending on load.
Ironic or just one of the joys of CB shooting. That's why I shoot at 50 yards lot and why I built a tunnel. The blunt 70 + -- grain bullets doubled the BC compared to the 415 and the better shaped 80 bullets doubled it again and I started having better luck. The BC of the 80 grain bullets are still less than a 311299 but they are closer.
John
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Ran into a big problem with the testing today. Fired two groups and on the 2nd shot of the 3rd the bolt wouldn't fully close. Have no idea what the problem is so I'm at a stand still till I can get it fixed.
Pete
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Update on the Sav. mod.12. Easy fix. The front stock bolt does not fit flush with the inside of the receiver. So allows build-up of crud tot the point it doesn't wprk. Looks like what was cleaned out had a piece of Lead I missed when checking over the bullets before loading. Sizing down the nose twice allows errors that are hard to spot.
Long story short... WAY to much work on the NOE so gonna give up on that.
Have another mold that has a nose that fits the bore the way I think it should. The big problem with it is that when loaded to chamber OK the gas check sits about even with the bottom of the shoulder.
Not sure how that's gonna work. The “word” on the street says no! Anyone have any experience along that line before I might be wasting my time? Pete
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Gonna chime in here on your thread, Pete. Just took delivery of a new Lyman 646 mould. Anybody have any words of wisdom for me before I shoot the products in my .220 Swift? When I get some bullets cast, I will probably start with 4.5 or so of Red Dot, about the same with Green Dot, and ditto Titegroup. Will work up from there, keeping an eye on velocity levels. Over and listening.
Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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Answer a stupid question Bill. Since you already have a thread started on your Swift why do you feel you have to hijack mine. Common Net courtesy says you don't do that. The least you can is delete your response.
Pete
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Sorry. Thought that it might be relevant to get info about bullet handling; no offense intended.
Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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The Lyman 225646 has lovers and haters. I like it and the chief complaint from the haters is my favorite feature of the 646 design. It is not a bore rider with a bore diameter nose. The 646 has a very short pretty useless nose with a quick taper ogive to the tip. The rest of the entire bullet length is .225' bearing bands and it is sized when shot. I like that and believe this design stabilizes quicker than a bore rider with a bore ride diameter nose.
I think it will do well in your Swift. Don't size it or only size/check it to the largest diameter that will chamber in your rifle. Seat it to engage the ball seat of your chamber or as long as your rifle will handle.
Of course if you are a bore rider aficionado, this bullet is useless to you and will shoot poorly because you don't like the design. Mine shoot great for me and I have never had a reason to buy a different .22 bullet mold. I only have the one 225646. I use Aluminum checks, tumble lube lightly before size/check and again after size/check, I size at .225” for my rifle. My bullets drop nicely in #2 alloy at .225-0+.0005” I couldn't ask for a better drop size for my rifle. My bullet size/check die is a Lee that I have honed to size .225"
Gary
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Bill,
Then please delete your message so as not confuse the thrust of this thread. You have a thread going on the Swift. I find it troubling that you should feel the need to post comments a out what you plan on doing with it. My paranoid conjure up some really bad about your reasons for doing so.
Pete
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Gary,
I see you want to continue along the hijack route too. Well have fun guys I'm oughtta here.
Pete
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Pete, that 85 gr .224 is a heavy bullet for your caliber. Either it will match to your rifle or not. This has been going on for 3 pages of shotgun problem solving. Personally, I believe you will add to your difficulty casting the bullet in Linotype and shotgun farther into nowhere land. Harder alloys are more finicky to throat fit than alloys matched to your load level. The bullet won't obdurate at all if it is too hard for your load level. The right hardness for the load will obdurate and will be sized upon firing for a wobble free trip down the bore.
If you do like bore riding noses on bullets, you are finding what you have to put up with or change about them to get them to shoot. This is also exacerbated with Linotype simply because it is hard.
I'd recommend pure lead if you plan subsonic velocity or #2 alloy for any velocity above subsonic. You can also alloy Linotype and soft jacketed scrap at 1:1 for a BHN 15 recreational alloy as I use above subsonic.
Gary
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Gary,
My goal is to see if it will work. Both John A. and I think the LENGTH of the bullet is marginal. Wgt. has nothing to with whether a bullet is suitable for a given twist. I thot you knew that?
I'm not concerned with velocity. I'll use whatever M.V. it takes to get stability & accuracy. You might be right in that I won't reach that point. But.... I will have proved it to my satisfaction and not from “conventional wisdom” or armchair shooters.
Now one more thing you seemed to have missed in a previous message in this thread. I have found over some 60 years of shooting cast Lead bullets is that the smaller the cal. and the faster the M.V. the harder the bullet has to be. I figure with this series of tests a .22 cal. bullet being pushed at 2000 + fps in order to get stability/accuracy it will take an alloy like Lino. So this is how I will proceed.
Now you seem to disagree. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Please post pictures and data of your targets proving your point. As they say on another I belong to..... No pictures it never happened! Talk is cheap. About all I've heard so far is opinions with nothing to back it up. “You oght to try this powder” ” I THINK this is what you need to” On and on. Show why you think I am wrong and I'll give it a try considering the 1st paragraph above as to what I'm trying to prove.
Pete
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Show why you think I am wrong.... OK, here is some:
Both John A. and I think the LENGTH of the bullet is marginal. If the bore riding nose fits, then the length of the bullet isn't short because the nose is a bearing area. That is one basis for disagreeing with both you and John on that....if that is what you are both saying and agreeing on.
I'll use whatever M.V. it takes to get stability & accuracy. I also don't believe juggling velocity to stabilize a bullet design is anywhere near important with cast bullets as jacketed . I don't think you will reach the point of stability you are looking for with that bullet for a reason you haven't overcome yet in your project. I suspect bullet fit and bore condition needs thorough addressing in your project and that a perfect fit is more critical as bullet hardness goes up and also, the further you are away higher in hardness from the alloy hardness matching the load, the less stable the bullet will be in the barrel....because the size is then more critical due to a hard bullet.
the faster the M.V. the harder the bullet has to be. You completely disagree with chapters in Lee's book on ballistic pressure and alloy selection that I base my success on. So, yes, I completely disagree with you. You believe your theory on MV and alloy hardness. I disagree with the whole lot of shooters who believe that and suspect they really never actually check the fit of their Linotype bullets, bore condition and they also fight with nose riding bullets. Please post pictures and data of your targets proving your point Search me. Now you have me wondering if you are the ignored, and blocked on my settings JoeB ghostwriting.
Gary
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Pete wrote: “Both John A. and I think the LENGTH of the bullet is marginal."
Gary responded: “If the bore riding nose fits, then the length of the bullet isn't short because the nose is a bearing area. That is one basis for disagreeing with both you and John on that....if that is what you are both saying and agreeing on."
Gary, No disrespect intended, but I don't understand your comment in response to Pete's statement. i think there is a communication problem.
Since my name has come up what I said was the .9” length of my 80-85 grain bullets were stabilized in a nine inch twist but not by much. I say this because at low speeds they sometimes make oblong holes at 200 yards even in good groups and also they won't stabilize in a 10” twist Hart barrel I have.
John
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John,
Sorry to drag your name into the fray. If you read some the above posts you'll note the Sav. is fixed and why. Think I'll have to put the NOE aside as there seems to be to much sizing of the and particles of Lead were jamming the bolt.
I do have another mold that casts a 75 gr. bullet but the driving bands take up about 3/4 the the length. As a result the base of the GC is about even with base of the shoulder. I've posted a question asking if there was anyone who'd done any work with bullets seated that deep. Conventional wisdom says this is not good. No responses yet.
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Your 75 gr bullet with the driving bands taking up 3/4 the bullet length sounds like a good bullet choice to me. The .225646 bullet I shoot has a longer portion of length for the driving bands and works well for me sized to a sliding fit in the chamber throat. My 646 bullets weigh 59 gr all up. They have a tiny nose and a long bearing area. This works easily and well. I just size to the throat and seat to .01” engagement of the ball seat. and they shoot 1MOA/100yds in my 1:12 barrel varmint .223. I don't have a great match for my twist and I don't see that matter.
Try sizing and seating as I mention and I believe your groups will shrink unless you use Linotype or some hard alloy that is beyond your load requirement. I'd say ignore how deep you perceive the bullet in the case, just seat to an LOA to engage the ball seat .01".
The .01” engagement has not been problematic for me. I think this is true in my application because I have optimized for it in these ways:
My #2 alloy is not hard enough to get the bullets stuck, Unfired loaded rounds extract OK with a mark from the ball seat. I avoid un-chambering them and distorting the bullets. I shoot them when chambered. The simple tumble lube I use helps the bullet slide into the ball seat engagement. I see that as a plus for a stable start and believe your 75 gr bullet will do the same thing with #2 alloy and tumble lube.
A very possible factor that helps my load work with that much engagement of the ball seat is my loading methods at the press that may be very different than yours. I use no brass crimp on the bullet, my Lee Collet neck sizing die gives me good neck tension on the bullet and it doesn't slip upon chambering but the bullet is swaged into the ball seat firmly and repeatedly each shot. My bore polishing is significant for the bullet swaging into the ball seat. It helps the slide and lessens the chance for a bullet to get stuck and pull out of a case upon un-chambering. I run a tight visible and verifiable fit of the bullet to both the throat and the ball seat.
Gary
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pete ... i have some 0.224 throaters if that would help you ... if you could use them there i9 would loan one to you ... or since it's a savage if you ship the barrel down to me and a couple cartridges loaded the way you desire, i would throat them to just touch ... or as you like ... i have only 224 throaters not 225 throaters .
ken
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Ken,
Appreciate the offer,but at this time I want to keep the rifle as it came from the factory. Running the throat out the 1/4” or so needed might make it useless for a shorter bullet. Did that once. Will only do it again if I think the longer bullet work.
Right now I'not sure a .80” - .90” bullet will even work in my particular rifle.
But I will certainly keep your offer in mind.
Pete
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Ken,
Appreciate the offer,but at this time I want to keep the rifle as it came from the factory. Running the throat out the 1/4” or so needed might make it useless for a shorter bullet. Did that once. Will only do it again if I think the longer bullet work.
Right now I'not sure a .80” - .90” bullet will even work in my particular rifle.
But I will certainly keep your offer in mind.
Pete My Remington 223 magazine will allow bullets to be seated longer. Cutting the throat 1/8” - 1/4” longer @.224 diameter only helps with cast and jacketed. The longer throating helps support bullet better before launch, especially some rifles with factory loose case neck and chamber clearance.
Be careful not to cut too deep and use correct snug fit pilot bushing...my Remington required the largest ptg pilot bushing (.219?).
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Gary,
I have been thinking about sizing the forward driving bands till they allow the GC to get up into the neck where they belong.
The reason for sizing the driving bands down is because there is practically no throat in my rifle. 1/4” if I'm lucky.
This will mean sizing the driving bands down to .219"-.220” so it will slide up into the bore. Considering the problems that amount of sizing caused with the NOE 80 gr. bullet I don't hold out a lot of hope for the 75 gr. bullet.
Pete
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John's 80 gr. bullet is verylong and may require chambering one at a time after throating longer than 1/16". Measuring will be needed to make sure. I believe a faster rate of twist (1/7 - 1/9) is needed also
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"I have been thinking about sizing the forward driving bands till they allow the GC to get up into the neck where they belong.” Essentially, what that does is re-create the bore riding dilemma with all it's entrapping. I am saying, just walk away from the failures.
Use a softer alloy and slam your action shut instead . Sizing forward bands to .219-220 will shotgun your groups really bad. Slamming a soft oversize bullet into the throat and ball seat will shrink your groups.
Size your bullet full length to throat diameter even if your throat is short, but still seat to the length that engages the ball seat .01. close the action and the bullet will be sized and chamber past your short throat. Just push the bolt. Check to see if your bullets seat deeper on chambering....they likely won't seat deeper or get stuck if you polish your bore as I have done and your alloy is #2 with tumble lube. They will fit tight and shoot well. This is such a basic thing, I'm surprised you don't know it.
I would really like to see and handle and measure a chamber casting from your rifle......Have YOU?????? The 1/4” throat you mention does not sound reasonable and is not SAAMI.
It is not a death trip to seat your cast bullet well into the taper of the ball seat and let the taper swage your bullet. It will make your groups smaller.
Admittedly, my suggestion is baloney if your bore is not polished like I do mine with a BoreSnake and Chrome polish as I have posted in the Accuracy section of this forum. The taper of the lands in the ball seat area from the throat end up to the full Land to Land size will polish for a smooth glide of cast bullets. The taper of the lands will work like launch ramps. Your launch area will work better when polished for cast bullets. The bullet will swage into a firm seat in the ball seat area. Again, that is a simple, old school basic for cast bullet accuracy.
Gary
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Where are the targets? Did Pete take his targets and go home?67 posts about maybe 30 shots, and the targets are gone.On the 4th page, about a set of targets that's maybe 1/3 of what is normally shot in a session, and now gone. Maybe that's not all bad.joe b. Bored stiff!
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Gary,
I was just taking a guess at the throat. It's short. Take my word on that.
Notice the heading on this thread has .224 in it rather than a more normal .225. This is because the larger size will shove the bullets driving bands flush with the case mouth.
The other odd thing about my rifle it has the long action. One other Mod. 12 I know in .223 has the short action. As far as I know the short action is standard as “sleds” are only available for the short action.
Seems to me jamming a bullet into the throat will raise a ridge at the end of where your “jam” ends which will eventually cause the problem that locked the gun up recently.
I suppose sizing the whole bullet down to .219-.220 would be something to try. Ain't gonna do it now.
Right now I'll shoot it the “normal” way and work from there. By the way... You guys have me LMAO. All this talk and no one has asked what bullet I'll be using.
Pete
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Most all 223 have short freebore.
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Humor helps.
If you size your whole bullet .219-.220", you will have so much gas blow-by that I'd be concerned about having squibb rounds with the bullet not exiting the muzzle. That diameter is about the same as your Land to Land diameter and would leave the grooves in your barrel open to atmosphere.
A drawing of your bullet and it's as cast dimensions with your alloy would help. Will you provide that?
Gary
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Gary,
The bullet I'll be trying out is an NEI 224 72. It's an old one. Walt was running the business when I ordered it.
As for providing the info you want. Not gonna waste my time now.
Sense of humor? Your wearing mine out. Give it a rest. OK?
Pete
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