Case annealing?

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  • Last Post 03 September 2015
.22-10-45 posted this 10 July 2015

I usually don't anneal until I have to, and I have read where some of the BPCR shooters anneal for every reload session.  I have just recieved a batch of new  Starline .38-55 brass.  This stuff seems harder than other brands..for our relatively lower chamber pressures. I wonder if there is any benifit to annealing befor it's first loading?

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Brodie posted this 10 July 2015

.22-10-45; The only benefit I can think of is relieving the stress or work hardening in the brass caused by forming (drawing) it in the factory.  I used to hand forge dinner ware and when you were working nonferous metal (silver, bronze, nickle, etc.) you could hear the “ring” as it got harder and harder as you struck it with the hammer.  Cartridge brass gets the same hardening when we size it and fire it.  Normally cases are annealed before they are boxed and sold - or should be_-, but I got ahold of a box of GI 06 ammo once that split upon firing. I think it was 15 out of 20. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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onondaga posted this 10 July 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3964>.22-10-45

I have a lot of Starline brass in use now in .500 S&W.  I've been loading since 1957 and used many brands of brass, The Starline is the best I have ever used, bar none. Factory anneal seems perfect and I have Full Length sized and loaded the brass 40 times with no home annealing along the way. All heavy cast loads I use Bear hunting and recreation.  Nearly all a 340 gr bullet at 1700.

Your 38-55 Starline brass is straight walled too, so I would expect it to behave as well as my straight walled .500 S&W brass from Starline. Just keep loading it. It seems to last forever and I have had zero pieces of Starline brass fail.

I don't crimp or crimp very lightly as all my loads are for a single shot rifle. If you will be crimping, then annealing is more important and a regular anneal regimen is advised to prolong case mouth life and protect from case mouth splitting..

Gary

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Tom Acheson posted this 10 July 2015

There are at least a couple forums that focus on BPCR. The subject of case annealing often is discussed. The majority of shooters anneal after each firing. And they often comment how quite a few of the chamberings being used in the BPCR game, where Starline cases are being used, benefit from the Starline cases being annealed before their first use. It is claimed that brand of brass is harder than most others.

The gain for any annealing in that world is assurance that the softer case mouth will open quickly and uniformly to seal the chamber upon ignition and prevent the backward migration of combustion gases. Black powder benefits more from this positive seal condition.

Tom

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onondaga posted this 10 July 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=281>Tom Acheson

Some time ago on this forum, a member listed alloy content of different manufacturers for brass. There was surprising variation with alloy content.

Reloaders like the strength numbers high for an alloy of brass to a point where it won't expand upon firing and seal gasses. Starline brass loads and works ideally in my opinion. It is most likely that Starline alloy and Starline forming and annealing procedure is simply the best there is.

Gary

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Tom Acheson posted this 10 July 2015

I agree on Starline being good. Depends on the chambering but Lapua can be as good or better. Starline wins the straight wall case race hands down! I wish they made properly head stamped .40-70 Sharps Straight cases so I have to use Hornady 405 winch. cases instead.

Tom

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Dirtybore posted this 30 August 2015

Personally, I anneal all new brass before I use it. I also anneal any salvaged brass that I might pick up though this isn't all that often. I also normally anneal cases after every 5th loading. Don't get me wrong, that could be plus or minus a loading, which ever is most convenient but normally, every 5th loading.

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bigbore52 posted this 30 August 2015

Annealing is often on of those chores that can scare some reloaders off it completely when they read the various methods employed - some being quite expensive - others cheap but effective...to some it seems an onerous task with little benefit but to those, like myself who do it for all the cases I reload - the benefits in the long run are clearly obvious and lets face it...no-one like spending money on new brass that often :cool:

In my opinion, different cases like the 303, 45/70, 30.06 etc and brass manufacturers whether they be Starline, Norma et al, will each react differently over time whether they be used for BP or not...different actions will also have an effect as with chamber dimensions and what type of pill they are loaded with - some will show little stress signs after multiple reloads and as has been stated, crimping the pills in also reduces case life considerably - all these factors including what type of case such as straight wall or shoulder need to be taken into account with what annealing does to case life.

As far as I am concerned, I've proved it many times that annealing adds extra life to a case -  a considerable time indeed so I anneal regularly....First time brass gets it, then usually every 5 or 6 reloads as others have posted.....only takes a few minutes to do a hundred with a propane torch, electric drill, several cold frothies and bucket of cold water....

Suppose the classic example of the 303 brass life demonstrates it best....I know quite a few shooters who don't anneal and they get on average 3-5 reloads at best....once they started annealing, same brand of brass - they are averaging 20+..nothing different, just annealing ..you can add me into that.......I see it as a pretty straight forward process to keep my brass much longer...way I look at it, the more the brass has to work in your chamber, the more it benefits from annealing....no doubt others have their own opinions but try it yourself and see.....you might be pleasantly surprised how well it works...

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onondaga posted this 31 August 2015

Brass does not require quenching after heating when annealing. There is no benefit from quenching brass, nor is there any damage, but the loss of your time is reduced if you stop quenching brass. The associated water and drying time is eliminated completely when you stop unnecessary quenching of brass. Just drop your hot brass into a sieve or suitable vented container to allow the brass to cool of it's own accord.

Don't believe me? Ask a real Metallurgist, not Google or the rest of the internet.

Gary

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 August 2015

A short story on brass life and as it might relate to annealing.   My benchrest match gun is a Remington XP-100 single shot pistol. At one time is was the original factory chambering of 221 Fireball. Then it was chambered in 30 BR, 30 Kern, 30 PPC and most recently 30 Silhouette. During its life as 30 PPC, 2005-2011 I fired 4950 rounds through it. Working with a lot of (200) Lapua 220 Russian cases, that's 24.7 shots per case. These are all cast bullets in the range of 1950-2100 fps.   A Regional match in July in 2011. Everything went fine. Afterwards I threw the 200 cases in the vibratory case cleaner and in going through them afterwards, I find one case with no neck, a ragged tear at the shoulder where the neck had been. Must be in the vibratory unit, Nope. Oh, nutz”¦.there it is, in the throat of the gun! Had to be the last shot I did at that match as I would never have been able to chamber another round. Lucky in one sense I guess!   I needed a reason to try a new chambering so looks like this one of the reasons. Never could get that case neck out of the barrel and several of us tried a few stunts but no luck.   So now I anneal all smokeless cases at the end of each shooting season and I follow the “after each firing” annealing mindset for my BPCR cases.   Tom    

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OU812 posted this 02 September 2015

Quick quenching in water prevents heat from building up in case head and causing loose primer pockets...so I read?

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OU812 posted this 02 September 2015

Have you ever annealed a case with a live primer installed?

OOPS

...

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8191>OU812

"Quick quenching in water prevents heat from building up in case head and causing loose primer pockets...so I read?"

No, it doesn't. There is no physical property of brass that supports your statement.

Getting case heads hotter than you can bear to touch generally means you have overheated the case mouth and held the case mouth too long to your heat source.

You don't even need tools to hold the brass if you are good and fast with your hands and read case mouth color temperature well.

The case head would have to be heated as hot as you heat the case mouth to anneal it to effect any physical properties change of the case head. If you get case heads that hot you have failed at brass annealing of the case mouth and ruined brass cases.

Many beginners trying to anneal brass make mistakes and come up with very novel stories to try and rationalize their basic errors and blame them on something else beside their basic error. That is what you read and believed. There is no physical property of brass that supports your statement.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8191>OU812:

"Have you ever annealed a case with a live primer installed?”

Theoretically you could because primer compounds explode from concussion but primer compounds do have a flash point also. The flash point temperature of primer compound should never have any reason to travel to the case head unless you are making a basic error attempting to anneal brass.

Murphy's law and prudence and the warnings on primer containers has kept me from annealing primed brass.

Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 02 September 2015

OU812 wrote: Have you ever annealed a case with a live primer installed?

OOPS

...

 

Yup.  Got away with it.

Ooooops was the correct expression!

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OU812 posted this 02 September 2015

Trust me. A seated Remington primer will explode when case is annealed and allowed to air cooled. I made this mistake one time only.

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8191>OU812

It is not a matter of trusting you. It is thermodynamics and metallurgy. If you got enough heat to a case head to explode a primer, You made a mistake that has nothing to do with air cooling at all. You over heated well beyond reason for annealing brass.

Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 02 September 2015

OU812 wrote: Trust me. A seated Remington primer will explode when case is annealed and allowed to air cooled. I made this mistake one time only. short case - entirely believable - I got away with it only because it was a short case and the heat took a long time to travel.

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2015

The Remington MSDS for primers lists 250 Degrees F. as the flash or cook off point of Remington primers:

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Files/MSDS/elecprim.ashx>http://www.remington.com/~/media/Files/MSDS/elecprim.ashx

If you get your case heads that hot you are annealing wrong. Annealing correctly is completed when the case neck temperature color is correct at first color change. Then allow the case to cool. Reading color temperature is a learned skill and there is plenty of literature on that. You shouldn't be annealing brass cases if you don't completely understand and cannot demonstrate accurate color temperature interpretation of brass case necks.

I follow the literature for the easiest condition to observe color temperature and work in the dark. The darkness reduces error in color interpretation. First color change, then stop heating is the correct way to anneal brass case necks. Any more over softens brass making it dangerously prone to rupture upon firing.

If you heat case necks to ANY kind of a glow in the dark you have made a serious error, ruined the brass and made it dangerous to load.

YES, if you glow the neck you can cook off a live primer in a case head. You will not be hot enough to cook off primers if you anneal correctly. It is prudent to never anneal live primed brass because anybody can make a mistake.

In my personal method of annealing brass the time between first color and red glow is less than 2 seconds. I have made the error and ruined brass at times. None of them were primed so I did not cook off any primers. All that did glow red were discarded because they are then unsafe to load. You really have to look well and know well what you are doing when annealing brass case necks. If you cant do that, try a different hobby instead of annealing.

Gary

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OU812 posted this 02 September 2015

I anneal using a cordless drill and socket. When flame starts turning orange color (about 7-8 seconds?) I dump the case. I spin shoulder of case at tip of blue section of flame (propane torch). Is this correct?

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onondaga posted this 02 September 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8191>OU812

The flame turning color does happen but flame color changing  when annealing brass is not dependent on the brass. The condition of the brass surface will effect color of flame for various reasons like:

  1. How clean the brass is inside and out
  2. cleaner residue
  3. petroleum residue
  4. polish residue
  5. fingerprint skin oil
  6. current level of cupric oxide on the brass surface
  7. the ozone coming from your running drill
  8. air pollutants
  9. pollutants in the gas of your flame source
  10. tumbler media residue

All the above and more effect the flame color change you see when annealing, the brass itself does not change the flame color at annealing temperatures.

Gary

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OU812 posted this 03 September 2015

I tumble brass in RCBS Sidewinder using stainless steel pin media. Brass is rinsed in cold water then tumbled in corn cob media to dry. The corn cob media has a little mineral spirits added to help clean dirtier brass. Maybe residue is causing flame color rolling off case to change.

Just the tip of case mouth may start to turn cherry red before dumping. Is this correct?

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onondaga posted this 03 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8191>OU812

Remove brass from heat before color starts to turn cherry. Starting to turn cherry is too late but not by much. It is usable. That color temp of starting to turn cherry draws too much temper out of the work hardened brass and over softens it. The over heated and weakened  brass expands more when fired and then sizing the brass back contributes to over working brass. The over heated brass will also have less strength grabbing your seated bullets compared to brass that is annealed correctly and was not brought to the beginning of turning cherry heat color.

You need about 1 to 2 seconds less heat on your brass than what you describe and working in the dark will make timing much more visible. You are really close! You can learn to identify the color you see on the brass just before there is any glow of starting to turn cherry. That is the right time to get out of the heat.

I see a dull frosty purple grey on my brass at that moment in time, but that may be different for you. The color I see is dependent on my fuel, my brass condition from my personal brass preparation. Yours will likely be different.

Gary

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