When i started casting about a week ago i started with the heat on almost max on my lee 4-20 bottom pour and was getting maybe 2 drops a minute on a lee 2 cavity,the bullets were coming out frosted.Then i was reading some posts about trying to get at least 3 drops a minute so the next time i turned the heat control down to about 5 and was getting about 3 drops a minute that way i was opening the sprue just at the time when it would not smear but it seemed like the boolits were still soft and most of them came out shiny they may even be a little larger in diameter.I was reading in lyman cast bullet book that a properly made boolet is bright and shiny im sure everybody has their opinion on that one.when i has the heat turned down to get the 3 drops a minute the bullets literally fell out of the mold perfect with no pounding on the mould.i would think a shiny boolit would slide through the barrel easier but the frosted ones would grab more lube when tumbling.what technique would you guys recommend.
shiny or frosted boolits
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- Last Post 27 February 2016
Without testing by actual shooting, I'd say the shiny ones are better, BUT.... Keep 'em separate, load them with the same load, and test them at the range. (Opinions are nice - but testing is best.)
Wes
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kennyz,
First off, the numbers on your Lee pot have not much of a relationship to the temperature of the lead in the pot. They vary several hundred degrees from a number. Keep records of what you get for results on your bullets. Frosting is caused by slow cooling of antimony in the cavity and allows it to form crystals, neither good nor bad. While aluminum moulds dissipate heat rapidly, you don't need any more than enough to make well filled out bullets.
You need to follow Wes's advice; shoot some of each bullet and let the gun tell you what it likes best.
Ric
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Casting thermometers aren't fatally expensive and they are a practical tool.
I recommend 3 drops a minute as the standard cadence for 1-2 cavity molds. Try to understand the thermodynamics, Keeping the alloy in the pot temp THE SAME and casting faster applies more heat to the mold. This presents as high surface porosity and not the ideal if your mold gets too hot. A velvety light all overall frost on the bullet surface indicates the most complete mold fill. A high porosity surface means you are way too hot in thermodynamics. Shiny means your thermodynamics are cold.
When your castings show “cold short” symptoms because the alloy temp is cooler than 100 degrees below fluidus or your mold is not up working temp from a slow cadence or poor warm up, you get cold short symptom either way and they appear as incomplete fill out and shiny bullets that have rounded surfaces that should be sharp corners. Speeding up your cadence or raising your alloy temp will lessen cold short symptoms by raising your thermodynamic range in degrees hotter..
Using a thermodynamic modification when you need to really helps. Using a modification when you don't need to makes your bullets worse. Learning the balance and maintaining it is not an easy skill to develop. SOME NEVER DO. It is a learning process and you are a beginner. don't change 2 things at once. change one, get stability of thermodynamics and check results. Changing cadence is much more effective than changing pot temperature at all if you are close to the magic 100 degrees above fluidus of your alloy in the pot. You need a thermometer unless you have an unusual skill that I don't.
To establish fluidus temp of any bullet alloy is simple with a thermometer. Melt the metal on high till completely fluid with a thermometer in the melt. Turn off heat. Watch temp drop and as the very first sign of hardening occurs, record the temp. That is fluidus point. Set your pot to maintain 100 degrees hotter than the fluidus point. That is the ideal temperature for your alloy. Casting now at 3 drops a minute should be good.
Watch how much your pot temperature swings when you add sprues or ingots and only start casting when your pot is stable at 100 degrees above fluidus. That will keep you out of a lot of beginner trouble.
A decent bullet alloy casting thermometer:
Bullets too shiny:
Gary
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Good fillout and concentricity is most important. Usually light frosting (more heat) provides best fillout. Each mold manufacturer is different and requires different pot temps. My pot temps range from 650 to 900 degrees depending on mold.
Sometimes bullets that fillout verygood can stick in one side of mold. You can fix this by polishing inside parting line of sticking mold cavity halve. 0000 steel wool works good, but do not over do it...you just want to dull the knife edge at parting line slightly. Polish ONLY mold cavity halve that is sticking. Veral Smith taught me this.
Sunny Side Up
...
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onondaga, Your explanation of maintaining 100 deg above fluidus point of the melt has just explained to me the mechanics of casting to get the best results. I have only been casting bullets for less than a year and needed an explanation like this to get over the technical hangup I had on mould/pot temperature differences. Also your valid argument for casting cadence explained how to regulate the problem I have had with going from poor fill out to very frosted bullets and not knowing why. Now my only problem is to put your concepts into practice. Thank you so much.
Steve CCCSC NRA Life member KC0gpt
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The casting principles are ancient and first historically recorded in pictographs and Hieroglyphics by the gold workers of the Pharaohs of Egypt. Pharaoh's gold workers were beheaded for miscasts, voids and porosity in gold castings so the survivors kept records of how to do their job well and not be beheaded.
I have told you nothing new at all, but am very happy you have a better understanding of some of the basics of casting.
Putting the principles to practice and getting good castings is not easy at all and takes a lot of practice and close observation. It eventually becomes fun if you are truly good at it and the successful work becomes it's own reward.
Gary
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Casting good bullets is a lot about equipment. You will need. Good alloy. Cleaned and prepped molds. Pine saw dust and wax. A good lead pot. The rest is technique. Almost fill the pot with alloy and turn it up as high as it will go. Set something under the spout to catch the drips and leave for 15 minutes. Add as much alloy as you can until pot is full.Take a spoon full of sawdust and a pea size ball of wax and drop in pot carefully as this will catch on fire if it doesnt light it on fire with a stick lighter. Carefully stir pot with a spoon and skim top. Dont skim more than once. Turn heat control so it is at about 3/4. Leave it there and start casting. It will work best if you use several molds and dont let the alloy cool. Cast until the pot is empty--then just start over. You may have problems casting and if you do it will probably be caused by the alloy that you are using. Alloy problems can sometimes be dealt with by adding to your alloy. I have some linotype and I will drop in a letter and add some 50/50 soldier then flux and skim and see if that helps. Wear leather gloves the tight fitting kind like drivers wear. And go slow. Try to be as systematic as you can and do the filling and emptying the same every time this will help to make your bullets consistant.
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Do be certain to measure your “as cast” bullet diameters as well. A shiny finish can also be a sign of casting with too cold of an alloy and/or mould. Another give away is rounded edges on the bullets where they're supposed to be square, wrinkles, and undersize castings. Lots to watch out for when casting bullets, and keep in mind that there are many different ways to skin a cat. This is the first I've heard of a minimum number of casts per minute being acceptable. I personally wouldn't worry too much about it, and if you need more bullets per minute, try a mould with more cavities. Your actual circumstances will dictate your production rate, not some guy on the internet you're unlikely to meet. And a high post count on an internet board is not a sure sign of a Mensa candidate. Quality before quantity.
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when you buy gloves for casting, buy fireman's gloves. The first pair I bought lasted over 15 years, and back then I was very active in Bullseye Pistol Competition. League once a week most of the year, and lots of matches on weekends. LOTS OF CASTING! They were gauntlet type gloves (I still use them around the wood stove every winter). The ones I have now have knitted wrists. I've been using them for around ten years. If they ever wear out, I'll buy gauntlet gloves again; they're easier to get on and off.
You can grasp a hot bullet mold when wearing these gloves and if you don't hold 'em too long, you don't even feel any heat.
Wes
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I get your screen name, I had a '69 BSA 441 Victor! I remember clearly, it sounded like a roadwork crew jackhammer and I loved to drive it.
Gary
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60 years ago when i started casting ...the things i worried bout were infinite ... but i somehow got good bullets in spite of all the warnings i read about ..
20 years ago i spent a few years trying for the ultimate cast bullet accuracy ... my own molds, swages, 25 molds, thermometers... lathe trimmed bases ... reformed gas checks ... one only commercial smelter alloy ... so much fun ...and got 2 to 4 moa from deer rifles...
now i just cast what melts ... run the pot pretty hot ... just short of so hot that my sprues take more than 4 seconds to solidify .... my only trick is to pour a big gob of extra sprue ...runs all over the cutoff plate and sometimes it tries to envelope the mold ... but it keeps the mold hot and gives plenty of lead to flow into the mold cavity . just pick it off as soon as it sets up ........ i accept anything that looks like a bullet and has a flat base. perfect flat base. guess what ?? i get almost all great bullets and my deer rifle groups are still 2 to 4 moa ... heh .... me worry ???
i do use lee bottom pour and ladle but prefer a ladle ... it just seems right .
oh, most important ::: be safe ...have fun .
ken
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I prefer the ladle too, Ken. I believe that it gives me a great deal more control than bottom pour does. I can control mould temp really closely, and I've been casting for such a long time that it's almost instinctive now. I tried dotting the “i"s, and crossing the “t"s, but it felt too much like work casting that way. I've been chastised on other forums for casting too hot, but my results have always spoken for themselves. I guess I'm past the certified alloy stage, although I do like my PID.
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Even though I have a PID which works wonders for maintaining temperature I find that temp. at times still has to be manipulated. E.g. holding the mold open for 10 seconds before the next cast . . . or 15 seconds. Or maybe having a small fan to hold the mold in front of for a couple seconds. Or sometimes with small bullets I have to run the pot hotter to keep the mold hot. The other night I was casting some 100 grainers out of a two cavity mold & it was all I could do to keep the mold hot. (It was cool, real cool in my shop) I had to crank the pot temp up & cast as fast as I could. It's just a matter of getting to know your molds & equipment. Each has a different personality. Pat
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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I prefer the ladle too, Ken. I believe that it gives me a great deal more control than bottom pour does. I can control mould temp really closely, and I've been casting for such a long time that it's almost instinctive now. I tried dotting the “i"s, and crossing the “t"s, but it felt too much like work casting that way. I've been chastised on other forums for casting too hot, but my results have always spoken for themselves. I guess I'm past the certified alloy stage, although I do like my PID.
I, like you have a PID & love the gadget! But . . . as we both seem to have found, it is all about one's own technique & being comfortable with our equipment. Sometimes things are not rocket science. Sometimes I get my bullets nice & shiny, perfectly formed with correct dimensions. Sometimes I get bullets with that light velvety frost that Gary (Onandaga) recommends with same dimensional attributes. Sometimes I have to manipulate the temperature & vary exactly that throughout the casting session.
A couple of weeks ago I got out my Lyman lead ladle & cast with that for a while . . . tried & true method. I still have my Lyman 10 lb. lead pot & my propane camp stove too!! Never forget where my roots are!! LOL!!
Pat
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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Casting thermometers aren't fatally expensive and they are a practical tool.
I recommend 3 drops a minute as the standard cadence for 1-2 cavity molds. Try to understand the thermodynamics, Keeping the alloy in the pot temp THE SAME and casting faster applies more heat to the mold. This presents as high surface porosity and not the ideal if your mold gets too hot. A velvety light all overall frost on the bullet surface indicates the most complete mold fill. A high porosity surface means you are way too hot in thermodynamics. Shiny means your thermodynamics are cold.
When your castings show “cold short” symptoms because the alloy temp is cooler than 100 degrees below fluidus or your mold is not up working temp from a slow cadence or poor warm up, you get cold short symptom either way and they appear as incomplete fill out and shiny bullets that have rounded surfaces that should be sharp corners. Speeding up your cadence or raising your alloy temp will lessen cold short symptoms by raising your thermodynamic range in degrees hotter..
Using a thermodynamic modification when you need to really helps. Using a modification when you don't need to makes your bullets worse. Learning the balance and maintaining it is not an easy skill to develop. SOME NEVER DO. It is a learning process and you are a beginner. don't change 2 things at once. change one, get stability of thermodynamics and check results. Changing cadence is much more effective than changing pot temperature at all if you are close to the magic 100 degrees above fluidus of your alloy in the pot. You need a thermometer unless you have an unusual skill that I don't.
To establish fluidus temp of any bullet alloy is simple with a thermometer. Melt the metal on high till completely fluid with a thermometer in the melt. Turn off heat. Watch temp drop and as the very first sign of hardening occurs, record the temp. That is fluidus point. Set your pot to maintain 100 degrees hotter than the fluidus point. That is the ideal temperature for your alloy. Casting now at 3 drops a minute should be good.
Watch how much your pot temperature swings when you add sprues or ingots and only start casting when your pot is stable at 100 degrees above fluidus. That will keep you out of a lot of beginner trouble.
A decent bullet alloy casting thermometer:
Bullets too shiny:
Gary Gary, I don't think that I would complain about those nice shiny bullets in your pic. They look pretty darn good! As long as they look like that & have the correct dimensions, those are more than acceptable/ LOL! Pat
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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Pigslayer wrote: “It's just a matter of getting to know your molds & equipment. Each has a different personality".
"Sometimes things are not rocket science" Very true!
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Even though I have a PID which works wonders for maintaining temperature I find that temp. at times still has to be manipulated. E.g. holding the mold open for 10 seconds before the next cast . . . or 15 seconds. Or maybe having a small fan to hold the mold in front of for a couple seconds. Or sometimes with small bullets I have to run the pot hotter to keep the mold hot.
The other night I was casting some 100 grainers out of a two cavity mold & it was all I could do to keep the mold hot. (It was cool, real cool in my shop) I had to crank the pot temp up & cast as fast as I could. It's just a matter of getting to know your molds & equipment. Each has a different personality.
Pat
Pat
My solution to the mold temp problem was solved with a pyrometer and probe. Got the idea from NOE. I just drill a small hole in the bottom rear of the mold and lock in the probe. The pyrometer is in the same box as my pid and I use plug in connectors to connect. I also have a second pid on the same box to control a hot plate where I keep my ingots hot for fast refills. The plate also keeps the mold hot during stops (frequent coffee refills).
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That is very interesting about the pine sawdust. I assume that is to add carbon to the lead? What I'm doing right now is using a match to put a carbon layer on the mold every so often. It would be much easier to just add the sawdust.
Or do I have that all wrong?
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