Loaded Case Concentricity

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  • Last Post 03 October 2016
OU812 posted this 11 August 2015

I tried loading concentric 308 ammo with some reformed 30-06 brass that was concentric and fire formed. It was nearly impossible to get loaded concentricity under -.003 with out bending neck in NECO gauge.

Switched to fire formed 308 Lapua brass and BINGO. All loaded cases now measure under -.003” according to run out gauge. Cast bullets were seated using the Forster inline seater that was opened up by Forster to accept up to .312 diameter bullets. Case neck tension is .002 grip on bullet.

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onondaga posted this 11 August 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8191>OU812

Man that is a long route. I buy .308 brass to load .308 ammo for my bolt rifles and don't have concentricity or tension problems from Lee Collet Neck Sizing dies and standard Lee bullet seating dies. Both of those specific dies are self centering by design and easily maintain concentricity everywhere under .001” when Lee directions are followed.

If you are jacking your ammo .003” out of concentricity I'd have to really study what you are doing to figure out why. But, I assure you, it is correctable and the remedy will end up being a simple one.

An easy solution would be to modify a .303 Brit Lee collet die mandrel part for placement in a .308 Win Lee collet neck sizing die, or order a custom one from Lee. Custom size mandrels from Lee are inexpensive and ordering instructions for them are at the Lee site. I use a custom collet die mandrel part from Lee for sizing and loading large diameter cast bullets in 7.62X39. It actually was simple and easy to set that up.

Just remember that your fire formed brass has to have a large enough ID neck to be sized down for your bullets or you are looking at a JoeB out of design parameter “dead end failure” with Lee Collet Neck Sizing dies. The collet and mandrel design of these dies is not designed to size up or expand necks, only to size down by collet squeezing a brass neck to a mandrel.

You may not have sufficient chamber neck diameter to load .312” bullets in a .308 Win. You can fight that with neck turning. I don't, and would modify the chamber neck and use a custom die or sell the rifle.

Gary

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fa38 posted this 11 August 2015

I think I would neck turn. If you have brass that has a variation of 2 to 4 thousands or more neck turning cures that. If you load without turning the necks I would think that the thick part if the neck would stay put while the thin part would give a bit and produce a runout.

But maybe I am having a case of to quote gpidaho “If you don't think too good, don't think too much!”

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RicinYakima posted this 12 August 2015

OU812, Neck thickness changes and base squareness to centerline will also give you those reading on your equipment. My experience is that you can not bend the bullet to alignment; either it is or is not. Lapua brass is the gold standard of commercial stuff available in the US. Fire formed in your chamber is as good as it is going to get. Your seating die is fine if your press is square, and you are mechanically as good as you are going to get. Good luck, and shoot some groups. Ric

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OU812 posted this 12 August 2015

I had reformed some Remington 30-06 brass to 308 so that case neck would be thicker and could be trimmed slightly longer than SAMMI to fit chamber better. Cases were inspected for good run out before forming and turning necks. For some reason this thicker reformed brass will not load concentric rounds...

Maybe the Lee Collet die will work better with the reformed brass. Thanks for the advice.

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fa38 posted this 12 August 2015

When you reformed from 06 to 308 you moved a lot of brass. You might want to check the neck uniformity on the reformed stuff.

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RicinYakima posted this 13 August 2015

check with fa38. When the old shoulder becomes the new neck, wall thickness changes. And it varies from case to case. I had this problem making 40/50 SS from 30/40 cases, and ended up having to ream every one. FWIW, Ric

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OU812 posted this 13 August 2015

I checked uniformity using NECO gauge before forming, turned necks to .015 thickness, fire formed 2-3 firings with lower pressure cast loads, annealed.

Maybe I should try fire forming this thicker brass using higher pressure jacketed loads.

RicinYakima, You stated “When the old shoulder becomes the new neck, wall thickness changes". I noticed this also.

The Lapua brass is thinner and much more uniform than the reformed 30-06 brass. Most all unturned case necks of my new Lapua brass has less than .001 runout.

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gpidaho posted this 13 August 2015

I think Martin makes a very good point when he argues in favor of neck turning reformed brass. Your tossing more variables into the mix when start pushing brass around. Like Ric, I don't think you can improve accuracy by attempting to straiten the round after the fact. I own the Hornady concentricity tool and it does a good job of checking alignment but as to straitening the bullet I can't see that it helps in that. Gp

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billglaze posted this 14 August 2015

I also have the Hornady concentricity tool, and used it with high hopes of refining my loaded cartridge concentricity.In use, I found a maximum of .0015 out of round, even before trying to straighten the round.  And that was a maximum number.  It didn't seem to be worth the trouble; didn't help accuracy, at least for me.  Was I too hasty in quitting the process?  Or could I possibly been doing something wrong?Right now the tool is gathering dust under the workbench. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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gpidaho posted this 14 August 2015

Bill, I believe your assessment of the tool is correct. The Hornady concentricity tool does a very good job of checking for run out(much better than my RCBS case master) but the bullet straitening thing is in my opinion a joke and a sales ploy I should have seen coming. I don't hardly use either tool anymore and like yours, they collect dust. Gp

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billglaze posted this 17 August 2015

gp:Glad that someone else had it figured kinda like I did--if I had thought it through, maybe I wouldn't have spent almost $90 on the thing.  Of course, I had no idea that my rounds were coming out that straight, and, like you, I found the “straightening” thing a joke--probably the only thing I was doing was slightly bending the bulet.  Oh, “Well--Live and learn, die and forget it all!" Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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OU812 posted this 17 September 2016

http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/146-concentricity-problems>Concentricity Problemsa.k.a Neck Runout With Bottleneck Cases

The concentricity, or neck runout, of loaded cartridges is an important consideration for reloaders and especially the varmint or target shooter. There are many factors that can cause or contribute to neck runout during the reloading process and many reloaders who have not dealt with the problem before quickly blame the sizing or seating die. While the dies may be at fault or have a contributing defect, modern CNC machinery and reamers that cut the body, shoulder, and neck simultaneously make such occurrences rare. Most problems are related to the brass itself and its uniformity both in terms of hardness and thickness and how much it is being stressed in the reloading process. An entire book can be devoted to this subject, but the amount of stress the brass is subjected to can be your key to finding a problem. If you “feel” any difficulty and /or heavy resistance when resizing your cases this can be a telltale clue. Excessive difficulty while resizing can indicate any of the following: Poor choice of case lube, failing to clean the die and/or brass, faulty polish inside die, chamber large or at maximum S.A.A.M.I. spec resulting in excessive brass resizing. A large neck diameter in the chamber combined with brass that is thin or excessively turned can cause crooked necks in a hurry. The more brass has to be moved the more its residual memory takes over. Resistance to pulling your cases over the size button can indicate problems. A “squawk” says “shame on you", you forgot to brush the residue out of the necks. A hard drag can indicate that the top of the size button is not smooth. Don't be afraid to polish the top radius with #600 wet paper, but don't reduce the outside diameter or you can create an excessive bullet fit. Carbide size buttons are now an option also; they have a lower coeffecient of friction. We have conducted many tests over the years on the various factors contributing to concentricity problems with bottleneck cases. We have repeatedly found a definite correlation between the uniformity of the brass (or lack of it) and the resulting concentricity of the neck to the body of the case. An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation. Another interesting observation can be found in the examination of fired cases that have crooked necks “as fired” right out of the chamber. Usually the chamber is being blamed for the problem. Looking at the primers under magnification you can usually find a telltale machining mark or other blemish that was imprinted from the bolt face. This will give you an index mark with reference to the chamber. Mark this index mark on the cases with a felt tip marker and go about checking the concentricity. If the runout is random to your index marks the problem is not the chamber. Further examination will show the same correlation with the good and bad brass. Note that to this point we have not talked about seating dies. That is because 98% of all concentricity problems exist in the brass prior to bullet seating. Keep in mind that no seating die ever made will correct problems. The best you can do is to obtain a quality seating die that does not add any. UPDATE: Feb. '96 Redding has now introduced neck sizing dies that use interchangeable sizing bushings in .001” increments. These dies can help reduce overworking of the brass and the resulting loss of concentricity. If you have further questions, please feel free to contact our tech line below

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45 2.1 posted this 17 September 2016

I would like for some of you who do this tell me if it makes a difference in group size (please give before and after sizes) and elimination of flyers for you. I use other methods that don't involve much of what you do, so I would like to compare results. Thanks.

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onondaga posted this 17 September 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=141>45 2.1

My personal testing at 1,000 yards with .308  Win and current Sierra 168 gr HPBTs yielded consistent 1.3” smaller groups from the Lee Collet Neck Sizing die set verses Lee Full Length Sizing die set. The only measurable difference was that the collet sized ammo all had under .001” run-out and all full sized ammo had over .002” run-out. All fliers count. In my testing, I didn't beat my lifetime best of 6.82” /5 shots in the testing with a  different rifle but came within 1/2” of equaling with the collet sized ammo.  I miss the old rifle but I don't shoot at 1,000 anymore. Plus the International Match 168's aren't available from Sierra today.

My old lifetime best was with ammo loaded with Forster stuff and a custom Starrett concentricity gauge. The new Lee collet and Lee press stuff shoots better than Forster IMHO; I  am confident that is provable with the same rifle and components and comparison testing. I don't think I could beat my old lifetime best unless I had another temperature inversion calm day like the best day I ever shot.

Gary

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OU812 posted this 03 October 2016

Warped cast bullets can cause concentricity problems. Bullets sticking in mold and landing too hard on surface will cause warping or bending.

Bullets should fall from mold easily and land softly on towel. If bullets stick consistently to one mold cavity halve, you can polish sharp edges (parting edge) of that cavity to prevent sticking. Polish just the cavity halve that bullets stick to. Fine steel wool will work.

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